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Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1461 » by EastSideBucksFan » Tue Mar 9, 2021 7:26 pm

yannisk wrote:I am not convinced trading for Jrue made easier signing Giannis. Maybe it did, maybe it did not make a difference or maybe it even made it more difficult.

Giannis wanted an improved team to be a championship contender. This team is so far worse than the previous two years and has reduced the options it has to improve in the next few years. I think the majority here considers we gave up too much without becoming good enough, maybe Giannis felt the same way and had one more proof that Bucks management is incompetent and desperate.


Acquiring Jrue helped push the needle for Giannis signing the supermax.

Pelicans worked Bucks over due to their position, although there were similar offers for Jrue from rival teams.

Team make up last two years was cemented as too old and too slow and roster was generally cooked.

Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1462 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Mar 9, 2021 7:39 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).


Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1463 » by JimmyTheKid » Tue Mar 9, 2021 7:46 pm

yannisk wrote:I am not convinced trading for Jrue made easier signing Giannis. Maybe it did, maybe it did not make a difference or maybe it even made it more difficult.

Giannis wanted an improved team to be a championship contender. This team is so far worse than the previous two years and has reduced the options it has to improve in the next few years. I think the majority here considers we gave up too much without becoming good enough, maybe Giannis felt the same way and had one more proof that Bucks management is incompetent and desperate.


You really think he signs the super max if he felt that way? I'll answer that question for you. No f***ing way.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1464 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 8:20 pm

skones wrote:
emunney wrote:
I was half joking about Battier dragging Gasol, thus 'if anything'. I don't believe either of them dragged the other. They were a great pairing. Nobody dragged anybody.

Everybody likes to **** on semantics until they find out that you can't communicate if words don't have meaning. You used the words you used because you thought it helped your argument, and now you're backtracking because you found out it cuts both ways. That team won because it was a good team, not because Pau carried them.



Nah, I'm not backtracking. What IS backtracking though, is saying, "I was half joking" while making a statement and then immediately supporting it with yet another post. After all, you can't communicate if words don't have meaning. But k.

Gasol carried a bunch of guys, and make no mistake that roster was comprised of a bunch of guys, to a franchise's first three playoff appearances and overall relevance. The ultimate point though, that Pau Gasol was a "Jrue Holiday level acquisition?" It's wrong.


Agree to disagree. I think Jrue is an equivalent player to Pau. You don't. That's fine. I don't understand your first paragraph at all.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1465 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 8:29 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).


Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.


Every mistake we made this offseason cascaded down from the Jrue trade. We HAD to have another NBA ball handler on the roster. We chose DJ. We'd have done better giving the same contract to Campazzo, but could have likely gotten him with much less. But the hole needed to be filled and we created the hole.

Then we had almost no means to fill out the rest of the roster. BAE to Bobby was obviously a solid move. Pat re-signing looks close enough to fine in hindsight. Now you've got a couple mil of the MLE left, minimum exceptions, and an incomplete rotation. You'd have to get a little lucky from that point to have a full rotation with some depth and at least so far, that luck hasn't surfaced (though Diakite has promise).

We just removed the margin of error in having a complete team when we made the Jrue trade, and then we... did errors.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1466 » by CharityStripe34 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:42 am

The Jrue trade gave us a better starting five than the past two seasons, while hurting depth. But if history shows us anything it's that you need 7 or maybe 8 good or better guys (with stars of course) to win a title. And plenty of luck. This has been a strange season and while the Bucks haven't looked like a dominant title-contender, they have the ability to get hot and make a run. I'm hoping it's in April/May as opposed to January/February as it was last season.

Is there a deal out there to get us a better player than Lopez at the 5? That's my big concern. Portis has been solid as hell as the 6th man. I'm of the opinion the move is moving Gianni to C most of the time and focusing on wing talent, but I don't think he's ready or willing to make that move.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1467 » by DrWood » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:49 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).


Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.

plus deciding to rather have MCW than a first round pick. Then trading him for Snell, then trading Snell and Kevin Porter for Lauer's corpse. . .
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1468 » by KidA24 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:01 am

DrWood wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).


Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.

plus deciding to rather have MCW than a first round pick. Then trading him for Snell, then trading Snell and Kevin Porter for Lauer's corpse. . .


Don't forget, after they selected Jabari in 2014, the Hammond went and did a 30 minute press conference and sat on his hands hoping someone might call him. They had #31 in 2014. They selected Ingliis. They also had #36. They selected O'Bryant.

33: Joe Harris
38: Dinwiddie
39: Jerami Grant
40: GRIII
41: Jokic
45: Dwight Powell
46: Jordan Clarkson
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1469 » by ShootingtheJ » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:20 am

KidA24 wrote:
DrWood wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.

plus deciding to rather have MCW than a first round pick. Then trading him for Snell, then trading Snell and Kevin Porter for Lauer's corpse. . .


Don't forget, after they selected Jabari in 2014, the Hammond went and did a 30 minute press conference and sat on his hands hoping someone might call him. They had #31 in 2014. They selected Ingliis. They also had #36. They selected O'Bryant.

33: Joe Harris
38: Dinwiddie
39: Jerami Grant
40: GRIII
41: Jokic
45: Dwight Powell
46: Jordan Clarkson


The Bucks were running a high post offense with Zaza, needed a young center, and passed on Jokic to pick a slow PF in O'Bryant, who had no place in the modern NBA.

That's in the past now. The Jrue trade was great, Nwora, Merrill,, and Diakite will save them in future years, but they whiffed on DJA, and now need to correct it now. Immediately.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1470 » by humanrefutation » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:37 am

KidA24 wrote:
DrWood wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.

plus deciding to rather have MCW than a first round pick. Then trading him for Snell, then trading Snell and Kevin Porter for Lauer's corpse. . .


Don't forget, after they selected Jabari in 2014, the Hammond went and did a 30 minute press conference and sat on his hands hoping someone might call him. They had #31 in 2014. They selected Ingliis. They also had #36. They selected O'Bryant.

33: Joe Harris
38: Dinwiddie
39: Jerami Grant
40: GRIII
41: Jokic
45: Dwight Powell
46: Jordan Clarkson


Yikes. Didn't realize that about 2014. Any one of those guys - bar GRIII - would be in our rotation right now at the very least.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1471 » by giannis and 1 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:37 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Staying with the same roster wouldn't have worked either. Bledsoe had to go, had no choice on Wes and he looks bad in LA, Hill has missed most of the season, Korver retired, RoLo was redundant, Ersan fell out of the rotation (although I think it was mostly injury).


Don't disagree with any of it.

And while this thread is focused on the Jrue trade, the reality is that if we had hit on one or two other moves in the last 7 years, we'd have a much stronger bench, and less concern from some of us on the Jrue trade. Take your pick on what continues to haunt us:

-Thon over Sabonis
-OG and two seconds (Norm Powell) for Greivis
-DJ Wilson draft selection (over John Collins, Jarrett Allen or OG)
-Loose lips sinking the Bogdan trade (I'll admit the jury is out on this one. Keeping DDV might be the better play)
-Not forcing Brogdan to stay and matching the offer sheet, while paying the tax a year earlier
-Jon Horst buying in on DJ Augustin a year or two after he's cooked with $7mm of valuable cap space
-And all of that is before we go back to the 2014 draft wipeout and 2015 Rashad Vaughn debacle or tying up $50 million apiece in Henson, Larry, Monroe and Plumlee and having all those contracts turn out to be boat anchors.

We literally have to not botch only one or two of the items above to have what we need to win a title this year.

And if we had been building that asset pool, we would have had the ability to use some of them for a Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1472 » by giannis and 1 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:40 am

I'd say most of our problems are because of Hammond, but Horst has made his fair share of mistakes and asset mismangement as well.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1473 » by emunney » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:07 am

humanrefutation wrote:
KidA24 wrote:
DrWood wrote:plus deciding to rather have MCW than a first round pick. Then trading him for Snell, then trading Snell and Kevin Porter for Lauer's corpse. . .


Don't forget, after they selected Jabari in 2014, the Hammond went and did a 30 minute press conference and sat on his hands hoping someone might call him. They had #31 in 2014. They selected Ingliis. They also had #36. They selected O'Bryant.

33: Joe Harris
38: Dinwiddie
39: Jerami Grant
40: GRIII
41: Jokic
45: Dwight Powell
46: Jordan Clarkson


Yikes. Didn't realize that about 2014. Any one of those guys - bar GRIII - would be in our rotation right now at the very least.


Assuming we kept them. Most of these guys are on their 3rd or 4th team. Apart from Jokic and I think Powell, we had many chances at these guys. Isn't Little Dog a FA right now?
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1474 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:15 am

giannis and 1 wrote:And if we had been building that asset pool, we would have had the ability to use some of them for a Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler

Obviously having more assets to not include someone like Khris would have been great but we could have traded Khris/Malcolm and/or firsts for any of them at certain points. Kawhi and George were a little different I guess because everyone knew they would wind up in LA eventually but Butler was there for the pickings when he was departing from Minny. Riding with what we had wasn't even that bad tbh but then we let Malcolm walk for essentially nothing. I remember the trade for Jimmy or not discussions and it was pretty split between trade for him or not but I don't think anyone would have had trade don't trade for him and then trade Malcolm for pick #24 in those talks.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1475 » by giannis and 1 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:16 am

JimmyTheKid wrote:
yannisk wrote:I am not convinced trading for Jrue made easier signing Giannis. Maybe it did, maybe it did not make a difference or maybe it even made it more difficult.

Giannis wanted an improved team to be a championship contender. This team is so far worse than the previous two years and has reduced the options it has to improve in the next few years. I think the majority here considers we gave up too much without becoming good enough, maybe Giannis felt the same way and had one more proof that Bucks management is incompetent and desperate.


You really think he signs the super max if he felt that way? I'll answer that question for you. No f***ing way.

I think Giannis was going to sign the supermax no matter what. Unless something catastrophic happened, or Bucks decided they wanted to rebuild or something.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1476 » by giannis and 1 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:20 am

emunney wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
KidA24 wrote:
Don't forget, after they selected Jabari in 2014, the Hammond went and did a 30 minute press conference and sat on his hands hoping someone might call him. They had #31 in 2014. They selected Ingliis. They also had #36. They selected O'Bryant.

33: Joe Harris
38: Dinwiddie
39: Jerami Grant
40: GRIII
41: Jokic
45: Dwight Powell
46: Jordan Clarkson


Yikes. Didn't realize that about 2014. Any one of those guys - bar GRIII - would be in our rotation right now at the very least.


Assuming we kept them. Most of these guys are on their 3rd or 4th team. Apart from Jokic and I think Powell, we had many chances at these guys. Isn't Little Dog a FA right now?

He's on the Kings and is an okayish rotation player
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1477 » by emunney » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:22 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
emunney wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Yikes. Didn't realize that about 2014. Any one of those guys - bar GRIII - would be in our rotation right now at the very least.


Assuming we kept them. Most of these guys are on their 3rd or 4th team. Apart from Jokic and I think Powell, we had many chances at these guys. Isn't Little Dog a FA right now?

He's on the Kings and is an okayish rotation player


They cut him.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1478 » by humanrefutation » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:23 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
emunney wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Yikes. Didn't realize that about 2014. Any one of those guys - bar GRIII - would be in our rotation right now at the very least.


Assuming we kept them. Most of these guys are on their 3rd or 4th team. Apart from Jokic and I think Powell, we had many chances at these guys. Isn't Little Dog a FA right now?

He's on the Kings and is an okayish rotation player


Nah, he was waived by them a couple weeks ago.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1479 » by emunney » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:25 am

humanrefutation wrote:
giannis and 1 wrote:
emunney wrote:
Assuming we kept them. Most of these guys are on their 3rd or 4th team. Apart from Jokic and I think Powell, we had many chances at these guys. Isn't Little Dog a FA right now?

He's on the Kings and is an okayish rotation player


Nah, he was waived by them a couple weeks ago.


Which is not to say he wouldn't have been a better pick than JOB!
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1480 » by HKPackFan » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:09 am

giannis and 1 wrote:I'd say most of our problems are because of Hammond, but Horst has made his fair share of mistakes and asset mismangement as well.



Let's give Horst a little more time to clean up Hammonds mistakes.
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