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PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory

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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#121 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 2:39 pm

Cythaps wrote:The game keeps changing, the 3pt shots attempts league wide are way more than even last year so it is bound to get more random, especially in the regular season. That's why there is no dominant team out there and we have so many huge underdog wins. Our offense is by far the best in the league and that's the main thing. It is much easier to get better in defense than in offense.

Our starting 5 is much better than last year, and that's what's going to matter in the playoffs. Today we lost because of a horrible bench performance and a 17% 3pt shooting differential. The defense wasn't good, but it's not like we didn't have equally good looks from the 3 as well. We're gonna lose 10 more games like that but it doesn't matter. How many number 1 seed seasons do we need to waste to understand that it doesn't matter that much.

P.S. That was a Utah franchise record in 3s. They deserved to win. When we did the same thing in Miami, did it mean that Bud outcoached Spoelstra?


It was a franchise record threes because we left them wide open. That's the consistency of Bud's defensive philosophy. Pack the paint. Force them to shoot threes. It's a bad philosophy.

Some people on this board have been talking about the deficiencies of this defense for over a year. We have pointed out that the Bucks will not become champs if we play the drop down defense exclusively. Bud continues to do it. So what happened last night was to be expected. Expect other teams (like the Knicks did the other night to us) to shoot a lot of open threes.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#122 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 2:41 pm

-Jragon- wrote:Tough loss. Jordan Clarkson was everywhere. Many of their shots were over outstretched arms. They had some open ones with ball movement and nice back screens but not more open 3s than than we did, they just made them. DJA and Forbes had open 3s whenever they wanted and missed.. Brook could have made a couple more all his were wide open.

We battled hard to keep in the game and tied it a bunch of times in the 2nd half. Hard to get too mad about this after 3 straight wins.. learn from it, make shots next time and move on to the next.



What? Three straight wins over Chicago and Detroit and you're excited? All is fine after they beat Cleveland? This team will not compete for a title with this defense. Bank on it.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#123 » by stillgotgame » Sat Jan 9, 2021 2:44 pm

BroncoBuck wrote:
stillgotgame wrote:
BroncoBuck wrote:I don’t understand blaming Bud for the defense when the players were the ones who completely failed to run it. Guys were caught watching the ball all night. Transition D was awful, terrible miscommunication on that end of the floor after some horrendous forced shots/sloppy turnovers on offense.

Half the roster turned over from last year and the team didn’t have any time to practice. Teams are essentially playing shoot around in empty arenas. We’re going to continue seeing plenty of games like this around the league


I blame Bud. How the hell does he play Thanasis relevant minutes? It’s not a coincidence that the Jazz were on fire every time he stepped on the court. He’s completely clueless on D.


Craig and Pat were both out.


Is it in Giannis contract that he can only play 33 minutes a game? Fatal flaw year after year in the playoffs- Giannis gets tired because he’s never played 40 before.
I’d also like to see Mids at the 4.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#124 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 2:48 pm

GoldenAntlers wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:
quote?

Read on Twitter
This is great. Hopefully Jrue is the one who can force Buds hand to actually play smart basketball.



I think the only way Bud changes is if a few of the leaders of the team start speaking out. I'd be frustrated as a player if the coach kept preaching the same defense and it continued to leave wide open threes.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#125 » by Siefer » Sat Jan 9, 2021 2:57 pm

I think you guys are zeroing in on the wrong aspect of the D pretty consistently here. If you want to go after Bud, go after the refusal to switch guard screens (the drop scheme doesn't necessitate that). Go after the rotations that put DJA and Forbes on the court against Mitchell and Conley. When we were losing their guards, we got killed everywhere, not just from three.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#126 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:07 pm

Siefer wrote:I think you guys are zeroing in on the wrong aspect of the D pretty consistently here. If you want to go after Bud, go after the refusal to switch guard screens (the drop scheme doesn't necessitate that). Go after the rotations that put DJA and Forbes on the court against Mitchell and Conley. When we were losing their guards, we got killed everywhere, not just from three.


They actually have done some switching on guard screens in the games I've watched, but you're right, not nearly enough. Bud is worried about mismatches, but he should be more worried about a scheme that leaves shooters open. The second unit is weak defensively, but last night the plus/minus was about the same for starters and subs (around minus 6 for starters and just a little more for subs). So it was a structural defeat, not personnel based.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#127 » by old skool » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:10 pm

Few things bind fan bases together more than complaining about their coaching. The idea that players get props for wins and coaches are dumped on for losses is myopic.

Some wins and losses are random. Some are due to the performance or lack there of of one's counterparts.

The players and coaches on every team are trying to figure out how to win more. Milwaukee included. I question whether the key to winning every game, every playoff series and every championship is to follow the simplistic and supposedly obvious exhortations of a handful of discussion forum fans. Especially when so many team forums feel that the only thing standing between them and more wins is to replace inept coaches.

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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#128 » by StickeeFingaz » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:11 pm

The Bucks tried different defensive tactics for short spurts throughout the game last night, it was there to see. When they deviated from the drop coverage, Bucks defenders didn't make quick decisions and were often caught out of position and made mistakes. The Jazz also did a great job setting different types of screens against Jrue in order to get their guards easy open shots.

Prez made a comment during the game thread that the team still isn't valuing possessions and Brook launching 12 threes is exhibit A. I want him taking the corner three when he's open but the 30 footer above the break threes need to end. Nobody guards him out there so him spacing out there really doesn't do anything for the offense. Like mattg said, move the ball and work the possession for a better shot, they're available.

We're 9 games into the season, I'm not worried in the slightest. I'm actually encouraged to see some experimentation so early in the season.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#129 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:36 pm

old skool wrote:Few things bind fan bases together more than complaining about their coaching. The idea that players get props for wins and coaches are dumped on for losses is myopic.

Some wins and losses are random. Some are due to the performance or lack there of of one's counterparts.

The players and coaches on every team are trying to figure out how to win more. Milwaukee included. I question whether the key to winning every game, every playoff series and every championship is to follow the simplistic and supposedly obvious exhortations of a handful of discussion forum fans. Especially when so many team forums feel that the only thing standing between them and more wins is to replace inept coaches.

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I generally agree that coaches get too much blame and that players are much more important. Mike Ditka was a horrible coach but won the Super Bowl. He went to New Orleans and he showed his ineptness.

But there are exceptions. I think Kidd was an exception. He had no clue. Bud is an exception because unlike most coaches, he has no Plan B. He has taken his team (not unlike when he was in Atlanta) to as high as he can, which is pretty good. But his inflexibility borders on weirdness. He rarely switches (except for guard switches), he refuses to play other man defenses (like a helping man defense that the Lakers use) and rarely plays much of a zone concept. If you have a coach who refuses to adapt, at some point you have to question his leadership.

My prediction, after changing half the roster this year as if that was the problem, is that the Bucks will fail to get out of the east and Horst and posters here will blame Brook or Giannis or DJA and we will have wasted another year. The alternative is that Horst finally tells Bud to change up his schemes or he's gone.

Sometimes coaches reach the maximum of what they can offer. I think Bud is a smart guy and knows there are other ways to defend. He just refuses to acknowledge the possibility he is wrong.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#130 » by BigO » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:39 pm

StickeeFingaz wrote:The Bucks tried different defensive tactics for short spurts throughout the game last night, it was there to see. When they deviated from the drop coverage, Bucks defenders didn't make quick decisions and were often caught out of position and made mistakes. The Jazz also did a great job setting different types of screens against Jrue in order to get their guards easy open shots.

Prez made a comment during the game thread that the team still isn't valuing possessions and Brook launching 12 threes is exhibit A. I want him taking the corner three when he's open but the 30 footer above the break threes need to end. Nobody guards him out there so him spacing out there really doesn't do anything for the offense. Like mattg said, move the ball and work the possession for a better shot, they're available.

We're 9 games into the season, I'm not worried in the slightest. I'm actually encouraged to see some experimentation so early in the season.


I agree that the Bucks don't value possessions, but the Bucks aren't losing games because of bad offense. They are rated #1 in offensive efficiency in the league. Their offense is fine right now.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#131 » by Ayt » Sat Jan 9, 2021 4:11 pm

There is only so much the coach can do when half of the roster is terrible defenders.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#132 » by M-C-G » Sat Jan 9, 2021 4:19 pm

Haven't seen many games this season because the whole FSWI crap, but with that said, seeing ordinary teams light us up from three has been going on for 3 seasons.

Seeing teams front Giannis with a wall has been going on for at least 2 seasons. I've seen almost zero adjustment, which tells me that Bud is just so stubborn he thinks we will win a championship by sticking with the system or he can't think of the adjustment to make, which doesn't jive with his bbiq.

As for the early seasons, Bud has always had no problem trying crazy **** and line ups just to see what they do when games don't matter. So a Forbes DJA combo doesn't surprise me at all in January.

Buyout market could be huge for us this year, given the weakness of this bench.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#133 » by greekbuck34 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:05 pm

Ayt wrote:There is only so much the coach can do when half of the roster is terrible defenders.


Our starting lineup is Brook/Giannis/Khris/Donte/Jrue. All good to elite defenders.
Jazz had like 8-9 3s in the first 6 minutes.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#134 » by aboveAverage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:06 pm

GoldenAntlers wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:
quote?

Read on Twitter
This is great. Hopefully Jrue is the one who can force Buds hand to actually play smart basketball.

Wow, that's really telling and I'm happy that Jrue noticed the flaws in the defensive scheme immediately. He openly called out the drop defense and said he wants to switch on screens. He said we have good defenders and can do it.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#135 » by aboveAverage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:08 pm

StickeeFingaz wrote:The Bucks tried different defensive tactics for short spurts throughout the game last night, it was there to see. When they deviated from the drop coverage, Bucks defenders didn't make quick decisions and were often caught out of position and made mistakes. The Jazz also did a great job setting different types of screens against Jrue in order to get their guards easy open shots.

Prez made a comment during the game thread that the team still isn't valuing possessions and Brook launching 12 threes is exhibit A. I want him taking the corner three when he's open but the 30 footer above the break threes need to end. Nobody guards him out there so him spacing out there really doesn't do anything for the offense. Like mattg said, move the ball and work the possession for a better shot, they're available.

We're 9 games into the season, I'm not worried in the slightest. I'm actually encouraged to see some experimentation so early in the season.

The problem when you only experiment with switching here and there is that players haven't practiced it together and are not going to be on the same page immediately. I'd like to see Bud try a few games of dropping the drop defense and focusing on other schemes. It's important that our guys can switch between them on the go. For that, they need in game practice.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#136 » by Matches Malone » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:11 pm

aboveAverage wrote:Wow, that's really telling and I'm happy that Jrue noticed the flaws in the defensive scheme immediately. He openly called out the drop defense and said he wants to switch on screens. He said we have good defenders and can do it.


It really is amazing the lengths of stubbornness Bud has gone with his defense. We have 4 starters who can easily guard 3-4 positions individually. So it really makes no sense that we don't switch as much as we should.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#137 » by mattg » Sat Jan 9, 2021 6:05 pm

https://coachmckay.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/brayden-carr-2016-brad-stevens.pdf

Highly recommend reading through this to everyone, especially as we fixate more and more on our defensive scheme and ball screen coverage.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#138 » by Isocleas2 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 6:06 pm

The biggest impediment to the Bucks running something other than the drop defense (besides Bud) is Brook Lopez. He can't play in a switching defense its why the Bucks were able to originally sign him for basically peanuts. The drop defense resurrected his career and got him paid, but the fact remains he's a one trick pony. If you crave flexibility in defensive schemes the Bucks will need a new center.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#139 » by StickeeFingaz » Sat Jan 9, 2021 6:56 pm

It was shocking to see Brook hedge a few screens in the first half.
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Re: PG Utah: No Defense, No Bench, No Victory 

Post#140 » by -Jragon- » Sat Jan 9, 2021 7:06 pm

BigO wrote:
-Jragon- wrote:Tough loss. Jordan Clarkson was everywhere. Many of their shots were over outstretched arms. They had some open ones with ball movement and nice back screens but not more open 3s than than we did, they just made them. DJA and Forbes had open 3s whenever they wanted and missed.. Brook could have made a couple more all his were wide open.

We battled hard to keep in the game and tied it a bunch of times in the 2nd half. Hard to get too mad about this after 3 straight wins.. learn from it, make shots next time and move on to the next.



What? Three straight wins over Chicago and Detroit and you're excited? All is fine after they beat Cleveland? This team will not compete for a title with this defense. Bank on it.



Kind of but I see your point. We aren't going to beat every good team when they have an on fire day and our bench is missing. But we do have to won more than we lose.

But good teams have to find a way to beat worse teams, right. It's a long regular season, noone is undefeated and the last 2 years we won more regular season games than anyone and where did that get us? Let them figure it out.

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