PG Charlotte: Bucks Implode

[Pachinko_]

^^ you probably think he's kidding, he's not exactly kidding
Only Greeks and maybe Serbians would understand

[Jez2983]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

OK, so I think Jrue/Mids/Giannis with 2x 3&D players can work, as long as Jrue gets the usage.

Donte/Portis/? is the bench. (I'd like Rose).

Who are those 2x 3&D? Is Craig one? Maybe. But Brook is done. He needs to be upgraded.

[yannisk]

Who are those 2x 3&D? Is Craig one? Maybe. But Brook is done. He needs to be upgraded.

doesn't 3&D mean he has to hit the 3? Craig can't

[BigO]

There are teams all over the league with horrible defenders, but many still have a good team defense. Very few teams have two elite defenders. Stop blaming it on the roster. It's on Bud, period.

Great, great post. Just look at the Knicks. Top defensive team, first year coach. Thibs knows defense.

[Ron Swanson]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

May be oversimplifying things but this remains a pertinent point. I had tempered expectations for Jrue from the get-go partially because I think he's, for years now, been one of the more overrated players in the league. "Impact" stats love him, he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, and he's a beloved guy in the locker room. All that factors into and somewhat inflated his perception around the league and how much of a difference-maker he is, specifically on the offensive end. But the reality is that we gave up a star/borderline superstar trade package for a guy who just isn't one, and doesn't impact the game as such.

There isn't much else we can do here. The front office has evaporated the asset base and hitched their wagon to a Giannis/Middleton/Jrue Big-3 and we just have to hope that's good enough. You can say a coaching change is gonna magically fix the problems that the talent level (or IMO, deficiency) can't smooth over, but I remain skeptical.

[JimmyTheKid]

Fix the defense or die a slow painful death. As mentioned numerous times this season already, we simply have too many good individual defenders to be this piss poor at team defense. All of our offensive strengths, Giannis unstoppable in transition, guys willing and able to make the extra pass for a wide open 3, are negated when we can't get stops. This is squarely on Bud and the coaching staff. We can only use "its still early" so many times. But the fact of the matter is, it IS still early. There are a lot of new pieces. But this team sucks right now. And are no fun to watch. They'll either get it figured out and make a legit run or a new coaching staff will be in here next year to give it a whirl with a really nice roster.

[Siefer]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

The Middleton of PGs is a really good non-superstar, right? That's not shade on Jrue. The issues in NOLA with those AD/Jrue teams has a lot more to do with coaching, supporting cast, and AD's limitations than with Jrue Holiday not living up to expectations.

I'm not hand-waving away criticisms of Jrue here. I've written (at length) about my concerns with his mindset, in particular on the defensive-end, and how his freelancing is exacerbating our problems there. The above just strikes me as an unhelpful path to go down.

[SIMMIES]

[quote="Bobicous"]Bryn -31 in 11 minutes, all you need to know! And the rookies can't get any run[/quote


Augustine was -21 in 4 minutes. How is that possible???

[MickeyDavis]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

The Middleton of PGs is a really good non-superstar, right? That's not shade on Jrue. The issues in NOLA with those AD/Jrue teams has a lot more to do with coaching, supporting cast, and AD's limitations than with Jrue Holiday not living up to expectations.

I'm not hand-waving away criticisms of Jrue here. I've written (at length) about my concerns with his mindset, in particular on the defensive-end, and how his freelancing is exacerbating our problems there. The above just strikes me as an unhelpful path to go down.

Sounds like our Bucks. Coaching, supporting cast and Giannis' limitations.

[Ron Swanson]

Also, with all due respect to Jrue, here are the defensive rankings of every one of those Pelicans teams he was a part of:

19th
23rd
14th
9th
27th
22nd
27th

One top-10 finish in 7 seasons playing alongside another All-Defense caliber guy in AD. I'm all for having the coaching staff listen to and work with the players on improving the defensive strategies, but Jrue doesn't have the clout or experience to be leading the charge on what's best for the team defense here, if that's indeed what he's doing.

[Siefer]

Sounds like our Bucks. Coaching, supporting cast and Giannis' limitations.

Definitely some similarities, although I think our coaching is much better than those NOLA teams, and I also think you can win a title with Giannis as your best player.

Regarding those NOLA defensive rankings, I can't rule out Jrue playing a role in them underperforming, but wonder if there are some similarities to how bad the Kidd teams were on defense after the first gimmick year, even though the roster had a bunch of decent or better defenders.

[CharityStripe34]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

May be oversimplifying things but this remains a pertinent point. I had tempered expectations for Jrue from the get-go partially because I think he's, for years now, been one of the more overrated players in the league. "Impact" stats love him, he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, and he's a beloved guy in the locker room. All that factors into and somewhat inflated his perception around the league and how much of a difference-maker he is, specifically on the offensive end. But the reality is that we gave up a star/borderline superstar trade package for a guy who just isn't one, and doesn't impact the game as such.

There isn't much else we can do here. The front office has evaporated the asset base and hitched their wagon to a Giannis/Middleton/Jrue Big-3 and we just have to hope that's good enough. You can say a coaching change is gonna magically fix the problems that the talent level (or IMO, deficiency) can't smooth over, but I remain skeptical.

I 100% believe this team with Nick Nurse or Spoelstra would be abusing teams. A lot more ball and player movement. Bud has been the D'Antoni of the Eastern Conference. Perfectly fine regular season coach who refuses to adapt/adjust based on personnel or in-game situations. He was not the right coach for a superstar like GIanni.

[CharityStripe34]

Who are those 2x 3&D? Is Craig one? Maybe. But Brook is done. He needs to be upgraded.

doesn't 3&D mean he has to hit the 3? Craig can't

Craig is still a solid rotational piece that played on a contender and played well. He also knows where to be on offense and moves around. That's lightyears better than some other guys on this team.

[paulpressey25]

The Middleton of PGs is a really good non-superstar, right? That's not shade on Jrue.

I'm not hand-waving away criticisms of Jrue here.

I'm not even really criticizing Holiday. Just observing that we all are watching these games and waiting/hoping for Jrue to take over at certain points. He's not that player.

What I find interesting is how much the Bucks front office put into analytics. I remember when we dealt for MCW, the Bucks stats crew had some details on how MCW was one of the best man defenders at the PG spot, hence one big reason they dealt for him.

Plausible the Bucks stats crew subscribed heavily to the Jrue advanced stats stuff, hence the reason they overpaid to get him.

[emunney]

MCW pre-hip injury *was* a terrific man defender. It was just a big problem that he was such a pathetic shooter, and though he was a skiller passer, didn't have the ability to manipulate a defense the way other similar but more effective players can. After his hip injury he was never the same.

[Wonka]

First thing I see as I walk into work is a replay of this game and LaMelo’s smug grin, gonna be a good shift

[Pachinko_]

Augustine was -21 in 4 minutes. How is that possible???

He played 4 minutes, and during that time the Bucks get left behind by 21 points.
You want to blame it all on Augustine? You can! That's the beauty with this stat, it lets everybody go nuts

[DavidDunn21]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

The Middleton of PGs and the Middleton of coaches and the Middleton of owners and the Middleton of front offices plus the Middleton of SFs makes The Bucks the Middleton of teams

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

[blazza18]

You guys have to remember that Jrue couldn’t get it done with AD down in NOLA. I mean it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, but this is sort of who Jrue Holiday has been as a player much of his career. He’s the Middleton of PG’s.

We’re imparting a lot of savior on him, based on the assets used to acquire in trade.

The Middleton of PGs and the Middleton of coaches and the Middleton of owners and the Middleton of front offices plus the Middleton of SFs makes The Bucks the Middleton of teams

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

I've seen that said before

[giannis and 1]

Also, with all due respect to Jrue, here are the defensive rankings of every one of those Pelicans teams he was a part of:

19th
23rd
14th
9th
27th
22nd
27th

One top-10 finish in 7 seasons playing alongside another All-Defense caliber guy in AD. I'm all for having the coaching staff listen to and work with the players on improving the defensive strategies, but Jrue doesn't have the clout or experience to be leading the charge on what's best for the team defense here, if that's indeed what he's doing.

Those Pelicans rosters were trash outside of AD and Jrue (and the half season of Boogie).