PG: Bucks Eclipsed By Suns

[WeekapaugGroove]

Paul's hitting 50.8% of his midrange shots and Booker 48%.

Feels like Pauls number should be higher but he did struggle with his shooting in general early this season. League average from there is typically just under 40%. I haven't checked his number but Middleton is typically very good from there. I know everyone hates the middie but it's nice to have a guy or two on your team where that's not a bad shot.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

[Ron Swanson]

Hate to be that guy but this is why so many people thought Paul pretty much perfectly addressed the biggest weaknesses of this team when it comes to half-court offense. He's still an absolute master at dictating pace and probing defenses with his handle and decision-making, and off-the-dribble shooting. He was in complete control last night when it mattered most.

[msiris]

It was not a great final shot. I would rather see a better shooter take that shot. Midds was wide open but he had not shot well all game long. Brook needs to go. His D is no longer that good.

[StickeeFingaz]

I can understand why Donte didn’t inbound the ball to Middleton. Donte has an internal 5 second clock, CP3 is cutting off the angle to Middleton and almost baiting Donte to throw that pass, Donte shifts focus to second option which is Giannis. If Donte tries to then go back to Middleton and CP3 makes a quick adjustment, it’s possibly a CP3 steal or Donte is getting very close to a 5 second violation.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Jesus, c'mon. "used to him giving away possessions" is a little harsh for the game Giannis had last night, and the career he's had so far. He's still trying to figure out how to be the best version of himself.

8 seasons in and he can't figure out he's not a shooter. How much time does he get to figure that out before that part of his game can be criticized? This has been a costly problem in the last two playoff series we lost and I feel like it should be addressed.

Giannis is always dominant inside. He scored 43 points last night inside or at the free throw line. Amazing, and typical for him. That's the Giannis I want to see. 4th quarter Giannis that doesn't settle for jumpers is the Giannis I want to see. He's the most unstoppable interior force in the league.

I don't accept the notion that because Giannis was so dominant inside, that nothing he did yesterday can be criticized. He could've been 50/51 in the game with 50 dunks and his lone miss being a three point attempt and I would still criticize the three point attempt as being a bad shot.

Its fair to criticize Giannis. He's not immune. At times, he's out of control and frustrating. I'd also like the three pointer to be pretty much scrapped altogether. Its hilarious how that take has gone full circle. Jason Kidd "not wanting him to shoot 3's" and instead wanting his game "built from the inside out" was mocked for years on this forum. Folks were so desperate for Giannis to become this perfect player. "Once he gets a reliable jumper, look out, he'll be unstoppable!" Now pretty much everyone wants Giannis to shoot far less threes, or completely eliminate it from his game.

I just thought the "used to him giving away possessions at this point" was a little harsh and defeated. Like he's beyond "fixing" or something. Because if you want to play that game, almost every guy in the league "gives away" more possessions per game than Giannis does. He's the reigning, back-to-back MVP of the best basketball league in the world.

It sounds like we basically agree about how Giannis should play. That being said, who are the other players giving away more possessions than Giannis? Jrue is a great defender but he's not trying to guard centers in the paint. What other player continually plays to their weakness as frequently as Giannis? Giannis is dominant inside and is surrounded with the best shooting he's had in his career. When Giannis shoots jumpers, the team almost always had the option for a higher percentage shot.

[Bucksfan28]

This was it. This was the perfect mix of aggressive scoring Giannis and facilitator Giannis. Yeah, he missed some jumpers, who cares? We're never gonna win a championship by him being Ben Simmons. Which is why I'm really not that bummed about the loss. Suns made shots and CP3 did CP3 things.

Giannis was playing like an idiot in the first half. I personally think the Bucks would be better without him playing with his head up his ass. I know you're the running leader of, "Giannis NEEDS to take those shots" but I fail to see why, at all. It isn't as if the defense is going to respect those shots, ever. He's going to be left wide open and the paint is going to collapse whether he's 1-7 or riding a hot night to the tune of 4-7. It makes no difference. The best solution is letting better ball handlers initiate the half-court offense and leave the shooting to guys who are actual threats. There are places 15 feet and in where Giannis is an actual threat in ways that actually manipulate the defense.

Again, no one likes those early shot-clock pull-up 3's. Those need to be banished from his arsenal asap. But him straight up abandoning those elbow jumpers or wide open 3's has a negative impact on his play-making ability. Think of it like the play-action in football. Guys bite on pump fakes because it's a reactionary instinct. Guys are always gonna sag off Giannis regardless of what he shoots, but they're not going through the analytics in their heads when their bodies only have a split second to react.

You put the Kidd clamps on him and basically tell him to stop shooting jumpers, and teams will be even more conditioned to clam up the passing lanes and limit the space that he operates with. Those 3-4 deep attempts per game are fine. It's the 6-7 attempt night with 1-2 makes that he needs to stop doing.

This is pretty much where I'm at. I'd add that those 3-4 attempts would ideally not be the first option on a possession.

[FrieAaron]

Even if Giannis were an average three point shooter, 4 in a half is way too much. Giannis is shooting 27.5% from three and the rest of his team is shooting 41.6%. He's averaging .83 points per shot on threes and as a team we average 1.32 points per shot in general. Every time he takes one it's a gift to the opposition.

[crkone]

I actually think the clutch numbers improve for the Bucks after this game since they were down 6-9 points when clutch tracking officially begins. That's pretty funny.

Heh. The Bucks NetRtg in clutch last night was +9.7. 77.8 defensive rating. Not good offensive rating.

[Siefer]

I think we've figured out what the positive Forbes lineups are, but it's narrow - one of Jrue or Donte, and one of Midds or Giannis to both generate the looks on offense, and allow him to hide on defense. Augustine has been better lately, but I still think he's the single biggest problem on the roster. Man, swapping him for Hill would be such a massive QoL improvement. I know the Bogdan fiasco likely left us holding the bag on a subpar version of the Jrue trade, but I also get the impression something went sideways with Hill behind the scenes.

[JimmyTheKid]

8 seasons in and he can't figure out he's not a shooter. How much time does he get to figure that out before that part of his game can be criticized? This has been a costly problem in the last two playoff series we lost and I feel like it should be addressed.

Giannis is always dominant inside. He scored 43 points last night inside or at the free throw line. Amazing, and typical for him. That's the Giannis I want to see. 4th quarter Giannis that doesn't settle for jumpers is the Giannis I want to see. He's the most unstoppable interior force in the league.

I don't accept the notion that because Giannis was so dominant inside, that nothing he did yesterday can be criticized. He could've been 50/51 in the game with 50 dunks and his lone miss being a three point attempt and I would still criticize the three point attempt as being a bad shot.

Its fair to criticize Giannis. He's not immune. At times, he's out of control and frustrating. I'd also like the three pointer to be pretty much scrapped altogether. Its hilarious how that take has gone full circle. Jason Kidd "not wanting him to shoot 3's" and instead wanting his game "built from the inside out" was mocked for years on this forum. Folks were so desperate for Giannis to become this perfect player. "Once he gets a reliable jumper, look out, he'll be unstoppable!" Now pretty much everyone wants Giannis to shoot far less threes, or completely eliminate it from his game.

I just thought the "used to him giving away possessions at this point" was a little harsh and defeated. Like he's beyond "fixing" or something. Because if you want to play that game, almost every guy in the league "gives away" more possessions per game than Giannis does. He's the reigning, back-to-back MVP of the best basketball league in the world.

It sounds like we basically agree about how Giannis should play. That being said, who are the other players giving away more possessions than Giannis? Jrue is a great defender but he's not trying to guard centers in the paint. What other player continually plays to their weakness as frequently as Giannis? Giannis is dominant inside and is surrounded with the best shooting he's had in his career. When Giannis shoots jumpers, the team almost always had the option for a higher percentage shot.

There is no way to quantify "giving away possessions." If other guys take questionable shots and miss is that automatically "giving away possessions?" I don't know. We agree about Giannis and the three ball. I still think that mid range jumper needs to stay in his arsenal.

[FrieAaron]

There is no way to quantify "giving away possessions." If other guys take questionable shots and miss is that automatically "giving away possessions?"

Yes

[CharityStripe34]

I wasn't able to see the game, but saw the highlights and the game appeared to slip away at the start of the 4th when the Suns closed the gap and then took the lead. The team has to discover what it wants/needs to do in clutch-time situations both offensively and defensively. They lack an ability to control tempo on either end when needed. It's a bit maddening that the starting lineup is something like 28th in the NBA in half-court defensive efficiency (per CBS Sports, I think) when your best three players are the reigning DPOY, Middleton and perhaps the best on-ball defensive G. Brook can still protect the paint and Donte at least understands how to stay in front of his man and contest. It may be a product of subtle tweaks of defensive switching and all that.

As for that last shot, I'm actually okay with it. Hoping that your team can succeed in the clutch with your best player being a decoy on offense, for me personally, is a non-starter. The attempt looked good and he actually shot it with solid rhythm and it actually looked good when I saw the clip, just a tad long as it hit back iron. Middleton is an all-world shooting threat so I question the motivation to not give him the ball by Bud, actually. Jrue's presence was sorely missed in the 4th in that type of game. Both defensively and offensively.

The super-encouraging development was Gianni being 17-21 from the FT line. That's huge. The maddening aspect is how one or both of Gianni/Bud thinks that him playing 28 feet from the basket is doing the team any favors. Analytics be damned, there's no excuse for an NBA coach to let this kid pretend he's a 6'11" hybrid version of LeBron/Westbrook. I don't mind if he takes threes, but within the flow of a swing/swing pass. He should take 2-3 a game this way and that's it. I know he's only 26 but I'm dreading the possibility that he doesn't take that next step to become a mid-range/paint unstoppable monster and he just resorts to trying to barrel his way into the lane from the top of the key.

Tying all that together it's crazy how smooth his shot looks when he's sure of what he's doing and doesn't think about it. I'm convinced that his mid-range jumper/FT is right there waiting to be unlocked, cause for his wingspan and giant tentacle hands he has a pretty good touch. That last shot looked perfectly nice, as do many of his mid-range turnarounds or baby-hooks when he doesn't sit there pounding the ball and analyze what he's trying to do in real time.

[M-C-G]

I am sure if someone plugged Giannis FTA/FTM and 3PA/3PM into minitab, you'd find a really really high correlation between Giannis making his FT when he isn't taking/making 3 pointers.

Reminds me of my softball and golf swing never both working in the same season.

[CharityStripe34]

Paul's hitting 50.8% of his midrange shots and Booker 48%.

Feels like Pauls number should be higher but he did struggle with his shooting in general early this season. League average from there is typically just under 40%. I haven't checked his number but Middleton is typically very good from there. I know everyone hates the middie but it's nice to have a guy or two on your team where that's not a bad shot.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

People think that merely devoting your entire offense to MIT "Geek Ball" of only taking threes and layups should just look at D'Antoni's Suns and Rockets teams and how many trophies they have in their cases. Eliminating aspects of the game for the sole purpose of math is ridiculous. I'm sure the Sloan Sports crowd had their panties in a twist when Anthony Davis and Jimmy Butler were draining multiple, varied mid-range floaters and jumpers in the Finals.

It's too bad it looks like that Bud has warped Gianni into thinking he should have the green light from three and no in-between game. Sort of like the bizzaro version of Kidd where he didn't allow him to take any shots outside the paint. Then I see the way Spoelstra runs an offense and how he uses Bam and I'm all

[Matches Malone]

I also get the impression something went sideways with Hill behind the scenes.

If I had to take a stab in the dark, one of the straws that broke the camels back was him agreeing with the Anti-Semitic remarks that Stephen Jackson was spreading on IG during the BLM movements. Considering some of ownership/management is Jewish, probably not the best.

[JimmyTheKid]

There is no way to quantify "giving away possessions." If other guys take questionable shots and miss is that automatically "giving away possessions?"

Yes

The problem is there just too much gray area. Nobody will end up convincing anyone of anything because the idea itself is so subjective. Sometimes "bad" shots go in. Sometimes guys are forced to take "bad" shots because a teammate dribbles the air out of the ball for 18 seconds. One fan's "questionable" shot is another fan's "ok" "decent" "good" or "bad" shot. Sometimes an otherwise above average shooter is in a slump. We want good shooters to shoot their way out of slumps, even if they miss. Thats not automatically "giving away a possession," is it? Sometimes an otherwise below average shooter has a hot stretch. We want hot shooters taking open shots, even if they miss. They are professionals after all. Sometimes there is a heat check. Sometimes the officials make bad calls on blocks and charges. Sometimes a defender makes a heck of a play on a close out or blocked shot.

[FrieAaron]

There is no way to quantify "giving away possessions." If other guys take questionable shots and miss is that automatically "giving away possessions?"

Yes

The problem is there just too much gray area. Nobody will end up convincing anyone of anything because the idea itself is so subjective. Sometimes "bad" shots go in. Sometimes guys are forced to take "bad" shots because a teammate dribbles the air out of the ball for 18 seconds. One fan's "questionable" shot is another fan's "ok" "decent" "good" or "bad" shot. Sometimes an otherwise above average shooter is in a slump. We want good shooters to shoot their way out of slumps, even if they miss. Thats not automatically "giving away a possession," is it? Sometimes an otherwise below average shooter has a hot stretch. We want hot shooters taking open shots, even if they miss. They are professionals after all. Sometimes there is a heat check. Sometimes the officials make bad calls on blocks and charges. Sometimes a defender makes a heck of a play on a close out or blocked shot.

A good shot isn't defined by whether or not it goes in, which is what you're getting at. And of course if someone takes one with one or two seconds left, regardless of who's shooting, it's also not a bad shot. So I would say there's not actually a ton of grey area here, just a lot of different scenarios. Khris Middleton taking a wide open three with 15 seconds left on the shotclock - never a bad shot unless you're talking about just pulling up from the logo or something. Giannis taking a three with 15 seconds left on the shotclock - always a bad shot.

[DavidDunn21]

So....are people just waiting on me to say this loss was on Middleton?

Everyone will remember the 2 missed free throws and the bad entry pass and the hilarious turnover where he tried to dribble, but really the course of the game was changed when Giannis went out with 3:00 left in the 3rd and the Bucks went from up 10 to 3.

Still good to get these reps

[Siefer]

So....are people just waiting on me to say this loss was on Middleton?

Everyone will remember the 2 missed free throws and the bad entry pass and the hilarious turnover where he tried to dribble, but really the course of the game was changed when Giannis went out with 3:00 left in the 3rd and the Bucks went from up 10 to 3.

Still good to get these reps

[paulpressey25]

Hate to be that guy but this is why so many people thought Paul pretty much perfectly addressed the biggest weaknesses of this team when it comes to half-court offense. He's still an absolute master at dictating pace and probing defenses with his handle and decision-making, and off-the-dribble shooting. He was in complete control last night when it mattered most.

Chris Paul’s best shot at a ring was coming here. Giannis best shot at a ring was welcoming Chris Paul here.

If we don’t win a title in the next two years, this will be the primary reason.