PG Nets Game 3 - Survive and Alive

[coolhandluke121]

But you can't accuse someone of proposing willy nilly trades all the time if they articulate very specific reasons for wanting to make those trades and those reasons prove accurate time and again.

Yes you can, if the proposer makes faulty assumptions about the nature of NBA trades, and regardless of the one-way justifications.

1. No trade is frictionless. Full value is never received because of transaction costs (degraded team performance during period of adjustment, etc.).
2. It's a long way from a true cost benefit analysis to thump your chest and say I have reasons to dump somebody. There are always reasons. There is always an arc of value in every player's career. To cry wolf constantly, as you have done, and say it's time to get rid of this guy before the inevitable decline is like the hypochondriac's tombstone: See, I told you I was sick.
3. As I explained to you years ago on this point, this is a Bayesian problem. Ignore the priors on the incoming players and the not-P's generally and you can end up worse than you were before. And of course your probability distribution has to account for the slim possibilities of letting a Tobes or Christian Wood get away, although, to be fair, your dozens of dump-him-now ideas over the years have mostly involved more mature players.

If you were a real GM, you'd have the biggest phone bill and the most unstable, dysfunctional roster in the league.

You've never explained a GD insightful thing to me in your life. I've seen enough of your assertions to know you're talking out of your ass. I still lol at your attempt to correlate offense with being more important than defense every time I see you post. You just use big words to fool people who know less about statistics than I do into thinking you're highly educated.

ETA: And your premise is bs. Not only has been proven and over and over again that many people are being homers when they are so close-minded about trading Bucks, but there are plenty of guys I have not wanted to trade because I think they are actually undervalued around the league. And to your point about career arcs, how do you account for the fact that I foresaw all the issues with guys like Jabari, Jennings, Bogut, Henson, and Yi before they even approached what should have been their prime? You're allowed to cry wolf when there is a god-damn wolf. Crying "no wolf" all the time is kind of dumb, don't you think?

[LuessiT]

I think some of you see CHL posting and just automatically disagree.

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

[aboveAverage]

So much pessimism. If we win game 4 and play well, it’s all gravy.

[coolhandluke121]

There are also additional limitations for trading a top 3 guy on a 5 year deal. There are like 5 teams in the entire league who can even muster a reasonbable package and some teams don't want to trade their superstar just to make up the value. If we were to decide to trade Giannis, the next step would be to plan when to trade him and how to maximize his value, which could easily take multiple years.
Personally I'm not in favor of trading Giannis but I do think now is the time to not banish discussions like these.

Of course. I'm not saying it's likely but I would be extremely intrigued by the possibilities. Some jerk said I must have "demons" to suggest it. I mean, do people not realize how that causes conversations to devolve? To say nothing of the fact that I can't fathom any Bucks fan watching Giannis and not understanding the severity of his issues. Say why you don't want to trade Giannis but don't say crap like. It's kind of amazing that anybody even has to say that but here we are.

[coolhandluke121]

I think some of you see CHL posting and just automatically disagree.

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

I think I specifically said I'd rather tank than watch Giannis do this for 5 more years, but regardless obviously if you trade him, you get very good players back and it wouldn't be a tanking move.

[coolhandluke121]

What you're missing is that anyone at any time can advocate for trading a player, wax poetic about why (e.g. "articulating reasons"), then come back years down the line and claim vindication for wanting to trade that player if their philosophy is as relentlessly pessimistic as yours is.

That's extremely unfair. I gave very specific reasons those players would disappoint and articulated my arguments very carefully. My reasons were very specific, not just general guesses at a player declining. I also supported many young players, so it's not indiscriminate pessimism. In particular, I was one of the first posters saying Giannis was going to be a superstar when everyone else was comparing him to Odom and Kirilenko. Most people disagreed with my critical observations, but everyone agreed time would tell who was correct. Then time told. You can't rewrite the arguments and act like I was just pulling stuff out of my ass and playing a routine. If anything, it's been proven over and over that I am not biased by pessimism, but rather than many others are being biased by optimism and I just appear pessimistic by contrast and not by any sort of truthful objective standard.

[DanoMac]

I think some of you see CHL posting and just automatically disagree.

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

Wut?

It is just miserable to watch Giannis play like that and imagine 5 more years of that. I would rather just trade him and tank than go through 5 more years of this crap.

[MiltownHawkeye]

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

Wut?

It is just miserable to watch Giannis play like that and imagine 5 more years of that. I would rather just trade him and tank than go through 5 more years of this crap.

[coolhandluke121]

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

Wut?

It is just miserable to watch Giannis play like that and imagine 5 more years of that. I would rather just trade him and tank than go through 5 more years of this crap.

Reading is hard sometimes. That's not the same as saying they should trade him and tank. It's just saying I would rather do that than watch unwatchable basketball for 5 years, but clearly they have much better options than that and that is what is being proposed here. It's not an actual proposal but rather an expression of how miserable it is watching someone squander so much of his and his team's potential on a regular basis.

Still waiting for your explanation of why you think it's okay to make personal insults instead of keeping it about the player. I'm going to bookmark your original post so I can save it as the genesis of when this debate devolved because the same thing happened with the Jabari debates and a lot of people blamed me for it despite the fact that the personal insults were only going in one direction before I finally started being just as rude in return.

I had to literally close out of my browser last night when I saw someone say "this is gonna be the same old **** for the next 5 years. Trade Giannis and just tank". Like, there's so many demons in the head of anyone who makes a statement even close to that

Also shows you blatantly misquoting me. It's not actually proposing that they should trade Giannis and tank. Far from suggesting it as a course of action, the whole point is to say how much it would suck to start tanking to use that as a baseline for comparison with regard to how much it also sucks to watch Giannis sabotage himself and the team over and over in the playoffs with such predictable results. So no, I did not say they should tank... but I'm not holding my breath for you to understand any nuance like that, just like I'm not going to hope you suddenly realize why comparing a team's situation with a star player is not the same as actually comparing the two players.

[TD75]

How can you expect Giannis to make good decisions in games when he is the same person that signed an extension with the Bucks back in December?

[TD75]

If people want the Bucks to trade Giannis, that is absolutely fine, as long as the Bucks also keep Bud though.

[jschligs]

We should make a poll "Would you consider trading Giannis if we lose game 4 and 5. It's a hard no for me. I bet that's how 95% would vote.

[Milbucks96]

We should make a poll "Would you consider trading Giannis if we lose game 4 and 5. It's a hard no for me. I bet that's how 95% would vote.

It’s not time to consider it just yet. I’ll give him one year with a new coach to have at least one superstar level series against a good opponent. If he continues to be trash In the playoffs you put out feelers before he ask out on his own. The only trade I’ll pull the trigger on this off season is something around Lillard. Very unlikely and probably can’t happen because of extensions or other stuff I don’t know about.

[jschligs]

We should make a poll "Would you consider trading Giannis if we lose game 4 and 5. It's a hard no for me. I bet that's how 95% would vote.

It’s not time to consider it just yet. I’ll give him one year with a new coach to have at least one superstar level series against a good opponent. If he continues to be trash In the playoffs you put out feelers before he ask out on his own. The only trade I’ll pull the trigger on this off season is something around Lillard. Very unlikely and probably can’t happen because of extensions or other stuff I don’t know about.

I’m in the “don’t trade at all” camp. He’s 26 and has a coach who refuses to make him do simple things to put him in a better position to succeed.

[DanoMac]

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

Wut?

It is just miserable to watch Giannis play like that and imagine 5 more years of that. I would rather just trade him and tank than go through 5 more years of this crap.

Reading is hard sometimes. That's not the same as saying they should trade him and tank. It's just saying I would rather do that than watch unwatchable basketball for 5 years, but clearly they have much better options than that and that is what is being proposed here. It's not an actual proposal but rather an expression of how miserable it is watching someone squander so much of his and his team's potential on a regular basis.

Still waiting for your explanation of why you think it's okay to make personal insults instead of keeping it about the player. I'm going to bookmark your original post so I can save it as the genesis of when this debate devolved because the same thing happened with the Jabari debates and a lot of people blamed me for it despite the fact that the personal insults were only going in one direction before I finally started being just as rude in return.

I had to literally close out of my browser last night when I saw someone say "this is gonna be the same old **** for the next 5 years. Trade Giannis and just tank". Like, there's so many demons in the head of anyone who makes a statement even close to that

Also shows you blatantly misquoting me. It's not actually proposing that they should trade Giannis and tank. Far from suggesting it as a course of action, the whole point is to say how much it would suck to start tanking to use that as a baseline for comparison with regard to how much it also sucks to watch Giannis sabotage himself and the team over and over in the playoffs with such predictable results. So no, I did not say they should tank... but I'm not holding my breath for you to understand any nuance like that, just like I'm not going to hope you suddenly realize why comparing a team's situation with a star player is not the same as actually comparing the two players.

Wait, when did I make a personal insult at you? I thought I've kept it strictly to basketball. Are you talking about me saying you had demons for wanting to trade Giannis? Bro, I have demons. Giannis has demons. We all have demons. If you took that as a personal insult, I sincerely apologize.

You've criticized my reading comprehension in literally every one of your replies, I think your toe-ing the personal insult line a little more than I am.

Maybe you weren't comparing Giannis to Redd the basketball player, or Jennings the basketball player, but these situations are nothing alike either. Not even close.

Giannis, alone, makes your basketball team a contender. It's as simple as that. Nobody the Bucks have had in the last 15 years (or, since you've been correctly predicting on when to get rid of these guys) can tip the scale like Giannis does. You and I both know that.

Unless you're predicting some catastrophic injury for Giannis, it still makes no sense to get rid of him. Finding a new coach to fix his flaws (and demons) and iron him out is WAY easier than doing it all over again and hoping for another superstar.

It's the same with Luessi saying the Knicks held on to Melo for too long. Their situations are nothing similar. Melo never single-handedly made you a contender. The situations are nothing alike.

It seems like you've been watching the game for a while CHL, and it seems like you're disappointed Giannis doesn't play like Kareem, or maybe some of your favorites from the 70s or 80s. I think that's a pretty unfair way to judge a player, the game has changed. Basketball is still beautiful, even with Giannis, you just need to adapt with the changes the game has.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

The man said to trade 26 year old Giannis because it’s the “same old ****” and to tank. As if that’s gonna help the Milwaukee Bucks.

It’s up there with the worst take in RealGM history.

No he didn't. Let's not make stuff up.

I think I specifically said I'd rather tank than watch Giannis do this for 5 more years, but regardless obviously if you trade him, you get very good players back and it wouldn't be a tanking move.

absolutely no way we deal him and tank. i would argue the right trade makes us instantly better especially if bud remains as coach.

giannis needs a kidd. the rest of the team needs a bud.

holiday
mccollum
middleton
adebayo
lopez

like could we root for that? cause we could have that easy and theres even better deals out there.

how about.....

holiday/brunson
thj/ddv
richardson/nwora
middleton/portis
porzingas

gut dallas. gut atlanta. gut toronto. gut miami. flip pieces. the brainstorms and potential deals are endless. we could be set up perfectly for when the next ACTUAL championship #1 makes his way on the market.

[Sigra]

I think I specifically said I'd rather tank than watch Giannis do this for 5 more years

I understand you 100%. For me the worst thing is 13 seconds free throws. I honestly didnt count before but now I do and it is always 13 seconds at least. Very hard to support player who intentionaly break rules so clearly that entire world laugh at us. 10 second rule is there for reason. refs help us each time they dont call it. basicly all points that he score from FT should be taken from us. I feel dirty because they are not.

and he miss most of them anyway.

[Milbucks96]

We should make a poll "Would you consider trading Giannis if we lose game 4 and 5. It's a hard no for me. I bet that's how 95% would vote.

It’s not time to consider it just yet. I’ll give him one year with a new coach to have at least one superstar level series against a good opponent. If he continues to be trash In the playoffs you put out feelers before he ask out on his own. The only trade I’ll pull the trigger on this off season is something around Lillard. Very unlikely and probably can’t happen because of extensions or other stuff I don’t know about.

I’m in the “don’t trade at all” camp. He’s 26 and has a coach who refuses to make him do simple things to put him in a better position to succeed.

That’s fair, that’s more of a knock on Giannis though. How many super max/stars in the league need a coach to MAKE them do simple things and make good plays.

[Milbucks96]

It’s not like Bud hasn’t ran picks for Giannis as the handler, roller, put him in the post, Elbow, played him at the 5, switch defense, drop coverage, off ball, on ball. Bud has put him in every position possible just this postseason and he can’t get outta his own way. You got players actively freezing him out just so he won’t do dumb things and he still finds a way. That’s not how coaching works, you don’t baby sit players on the court and smack their hand every time they make a bad decision. Especially an 8 year vet that’s been in this situation 5 years in a row. Giannis has multiple years on me and I find it crazy how people try to act like he’s a kid who can’t make good decisions on his own and say he shouldn’t have to then point at the coach to defer blame. No Giannis doesn’t deserve blame for losing to the nets but he deserves plenty blame for playing bad for 4 straight playoff series while the team has done everything he’s asked for and more. He asked for a team that can compete for a championship and can’t even back up his end of the bargain, can’t even bring his regular season. How can you look at those shooting splits and blame it on coaching.

[jimmybones]

I still can’t wrap my head around Giannis taking 8 threes in a tight playoff game. And even more alarmingly, him thinking those are okay looks after the game.