Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Moose Returns

[MVP2110]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

[flaco]

Mids: Height, Quick release
Jrue: Strength, Anticipation

The games of both of these guys will age well, especially Mids. Other than Jokic, is there another player in the league less reliant on physical quickness/explosiveness?

Off the top of my head:
- Luka
- Kyle Anderson (Arguably the least athletic player in the NBA. No wonder he's nicknamed Slow Mo.)

Agreed that Middleton's game will probably age well. Can't say the same thing about Jrue's game. He relies on lateral quickness to lock down his opponents on defense. He scores plenty of his points via slashing. Unlike Middleton, he's nothing special as a shooter. Fwiw, here are their shot charts from last season. Middleton is a lethal shooter who can score from anywhere on the court.

[M-C-G]

To use the cliche, a bird in the hand beats two in the bush, or whst ever it is.

Why take a step back now for HOPE in the future. An upgrade on Midds? You need an all NBA player. Same with Jrue.

I certainly don't see Haliburton as a future all NBA player.

I know this is a chat board so everyone throws out ideas for kicks and giggles. I weep for those of you who really believe we need to trade.

Sent from my HTC U11 using RealGM mobile app

Imo, Midds > Jrue for various reasons. I wouldn't trade Midds. I'd be open to trading Jrue only if we can replace him with Haliburton.

Agreed that Haliburton will never become an all-NBA player. That said, he'd be a perfect fit on the Bucks. He can shoot the 3. He can run the PnR. He can defend multiple positions thanks to his size/length. Most importantly, he doesn't need the ball in his hands to maximize his effectiveness. That's a rare trait for a PnR ball handler which would allow him to thrive alongside Giannis. The way I see it, Haliburton is a low-usage, pass-first glue guy. He's playing winning basketball despite his young age. Add Harrison Barnes and Seth Curry in that deal and it arguably makes the Bucks a better team both in the short and the long term.



PG: Haliburton - Hill
SG: Seth - Allen - Matthews
SF: Middleton - Pat - Matthews
PF: Barnes - Bobby
C: Giannis - Bobby - (Brook)

I could see this team being just as good this season as our current team, if not marginally better. Barnes would give us tremendous versatility on both sides of the floor. He can create his own shot. He can create shots for his teammates. He can play on or off the ball. He can defend multiple positions. I'd argue he's a poor man's Middleton. Seth is an elite floor spacer and a reliable facilitator. Giannis would be playing almost exclusively at the 5 come playoff time.

Main problem with this deal; you haven't made us better (or much better) in the short term and you've massively upgraded Philly to the point where they may be the favorite to win the championship over the next two seasons. If the goal is winning championships while we are in Giannis' window, I think this is very bad way to do it.

[emunney]

Players rely on the athleticism they have, and when they lose any part of it, what determines whether they'll continue to be useful or not isn't their athletic starting point, but their ability to adapt. There are certain things they just won't be able to do anymore.

There's also the issue of recovery time, which is not the same as you age. Take Billups, for example -- he had started to fall off when Detroit traded him 2 games into his age 32 season, but it wasn't a harsh decline. He played out that season and the next without much issue. Then he had a couple more seasons when he was still useful but couldn't stay on the court, then he was basically done.

Jrue is a remarkable all-around athlete, but he is really heavy for a guard. How are those joints going to hold up over the next couple years?

I don't think you can trade him or Midds before this coming offseason at the very earliest. The championship window is very much open and taking a step back voluntarily is total loser ****. But if someone comes knocking with a crazy offer, one that you believe could make you better now and in the future, you've got to listen. I don't think the Kings package I've suggested (for Midds or Jrue) is that offer, even though I absolutely believe we'd be thrilled to have Haliburton when Giannis's contract comes up again.

[M-C-G]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

Watching that game last night and Wes was locking it down on defense and making life really hard for Steph. If he is playing like that and shooting the 3 this well, he has to be factored in as the PJ Tucker of this years team. Interesting to note that PJ played 20 minutes per game in the regular season and bumped up to 30 in the playoffs. Right now Wes is right at that 20 mpg mark and looking good in the games I have seen.

[emunney]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

Watching that game last night and Wes was locking it down on defense and making life really hard for Steph. If he is playing like that and shooting the 3 this well, he has to be factored in as the PJ Tucker of this years team. Interesting to note that PJ played 20 minutes per game in the regular season and bumped up to 30 in the playoffs. Right now Wes is right at that 20 mpg mark and looking good in the games I have seen.

Downright confusing how good Wes has been.

[M-C-G]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

Watching that game last night and Wes was locking it down on defense and making life really hard for Steph. If he is playing like that and shooting the 3 this well, he has to be factored in as the PJ Tucker of this years team. Interesting to note that PJ played 20 minutes per game in the regular season and bumped up to 30 in the playoffs. Right now Wes is right at that 20 mpg mark and looking good in the games I have seen.

Downright confusing how good Wes has been.

I was trying to figure out a way to articulate it and I am sure someone will do a better job than I, but there is like a amplifying effect (affect?) going on here. Brook was an after thought, Grayson was traded for seconds, Bobby was probably closer to playing in China than getting a long term deal, Pat was probably on his way out of the league when he signed here as well.

Each of those guys were bouncing around (I suppose Hill as well) and they found a home and a system that allowed them to thrive. It's like by having the settings right, they are in some kind of absolutely optimal environment. Wes leaves to chase a ring and he doesn't even look like a NBA player any longer, then comes back and voila, fountain of youth, settings restored and back to being a useful NBA player.

Meanwhile in LA, you see them continue to collect 'names' (I mean this is almost laughable, it is like the all 2010 team there, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Carmello, Deandre Jordan, Avery Bradley and Trevor Ariza), in a typical LeBron team dysfunctional as always.

[WRau1]

Jrue's athleticism certainly helps him on defense (and everywhere else) but he plays the angles better than just about any other player I've ever seen. I don't think that will take much of a hit as he ages.

[Ron Swanson]

Not even really thinking about trading Jrue until the last couple years of his deal when he'll be a valuable expiring salary to throw at some team with a disgruntled All-Star level dude ala Bledsoe in 2017. This way you both maximize your current title window, as well as allow the draft asset clock to reset a bit (we're really only without a 1st round pick in 2023, 2025, and 2027 due to swaps).

[WRau1]

PG: Haliburton - Hill
SG: Seth - Allen - Matthews
SF: Middleton - Pat - Matthews
PF: Barnes - Bobby
C: Giannis - Bobby - (Brook)

I could see this team being just as good this season as our current team, if not marginally better. Barnes would give us tremendous versatility on both sides of the floor. He can create his own shot. He can create shots for his teammates. He can play on or off the ball. He can defend multiple positions. I'd argue he's a poor man's Middleton. Seth is an elite floor spacer and a reliable facilitator. Giannis would be playing almost exclusively at the 5 come playoff time.

Main problem with this deal; you haven't made us better (or much better) in the short term and you've massively upgraded Philly to the point where they may be the favorite to win the championship over the next two seasons. If the goal is winning championships while we are in Giannis' window, I think this is very bad way to do it.

Agree, this pretty much hands the East to Philly. Adding Jrue and DDV to an already stacked team of wing defenders, plus Embiid, that would be crazy good.

[emunney]

Jrue's athleticism certainly helps him on defense (and everywhere else) but he plays the angles better than just about any other player I've ever seen. I don't think that will take much of a hit as he ages.

Also he's not really a "slasher", he's more of a bully.

[Isocleas2]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

Grayson keeps the starting guard spot and Bobby is the first big off the bench. As for Hill, Donte, Pat and Wes you play whoever is healthy and has the hot hand. A couple months ago that would have been Hill + Pat, now it's looking like Wes + someone. Although Donte has played like **** he had the most potential if he shakes off the rust he'll be in the rotation for sure.

[raferfenix]

Downright confusing how good Wes has been.

Matthews saw his NBA life flash before his eyes after the Lebron experience.

The grass isn't always greener. He gave up his starting spot in Milwaukee, missed out on a championship, and wasn't even on a roster to start the season.

So far he's secured a guaranteed deal here (which Boogie missed out on) and is on his way to earning a significant role down the stretch if he's up for it.

[jute2003]

I really don't know how it's possible for Wes to still be playing well. He looked borderline at times even 2 years ago and last year looked completely washed. I'm still annoyed that he bailed to chase rings with Lebron but him not sucking is a welcome development.

[LuessiT]

Still feel like we should check the market regarding consolidating Donte and Brook into one player. I could see a couple really good players on meh contracts hitting the market.

[raferfenix]

I really don't know how it's possible for Wes to still be playing well. He looked borderline at times even 2 years ago and last year looked completely washed. I'm still annoyed that he bailed to chase rings with Lebron but him not sucking is a welcome development.

Agreed.

Maybe the extended layoff gave his body time to heal from lingering injuries?

Matthews also was playing 24.4 mins a game his first go around here which seems like a lot.

We had a huge hole to fill post-Brogdon, and Wes playing situationally against backups is a far cry from starting and desperately attempting to fill that void.

[flaco]

To use the cliche, a bird in the hand beats two in the bush, or whst ever it is.

Why take a step back now for HOPE in the future. An upgrade on Midds? You need an all NBA player. Same with Jrue.

I certainly don't see Haliburton as a future all NBA player.

I know this is a chat board so everyone throws out ideas for kicks and giggles. I weep for those of you who really believe we need to trade.

Sent from my HTC U11 using RealGM mobile app

Imo, Midds > Jrue for various reasons. I wouldn't trade Midds. I'd be open to trading Jrue only if we can replace him with Haliburton.

Agreed that Haliburton will never become an all-NBA player. That said, he'd be a perfect fit on the Bucks. He can shoot the 3. He can run the PnR. He can defend multiple positions thanks to his size/length. Most importantly, he doesn't need the ball in his hands to maximize his effectiveness. That's a rare trait for a PnR ball handler which would allow him to thrive alongside Giannis. The way I see it, Haliburton is a low-usage, pass-first glue guy. He's playing winning basketball despite his young age. Add Harrison Barnes and Seth Curry in that deal and it arguably makes the Bucks a better team both in the short and the long term.



PG: Haliburton - Hill
SG: Seth - Allen - Matthews
SF: Middleton - Pat - Matthews
PF: Barnes - Bobby
C: Giannis - Bobby - (Brook)

I could see this team being just as good this season as our current team, if not marginally better. Barnes would give us tremendous versatility on both sides of the floor. He can create his own shot. He can create shots for his teammates. He can play on or off the ball. He can defend multiple positions. I'd argue he's a poor man's Middleton. Seth is an elite floor spacer and a reliable facilitator. Giannis would be playing almost exclusively at the 5 come playoff time.

Main problem with this deal; you haven't made us better (or much better) in the short term and you've massively upgraded Philly to the point where they may be the favorite to win the championship over the next two seasons. If the goal is winning championships while we are in Giannis' window, I think this is very bad way to do it.

Jrue isn't good enough to be the second best player on a championship team. He was clearly the third banana behind Giannis and Midds last season. The Pels were a borderline playoff team with AD and Jrue. Not to mention, Philly would lose Seth who's one of their best players this season. Fwiw, the trade works without Donte. Feel free to remove him from the deal if you think it's too rich for Philly.

Agree to disagree regarding our part of the deal. I believe we'd be a better team this season with Haliburton + Barnes + Seth instead of Jrue. We'd also be a better team going forward cause Haliburton is 10+ years younger than Jrue! Barnes is 2 years younger as well.

Given that Simmons is a non-factor at the moment, the Sixers will definitely become way better once they trade him. The important thing is whether the trade helps the Bucks. In any case, I believe we'd still be better than Philly.

[PG Graveyard]

If we get to the playoffs at full health? Whose out of our 8 or 9 man rotation? Assuming the the Big 3 & Brook are locks that would leave Bobby, Hill, Donte, Pat, Grayson, & Wes fighting for 4 or 5 spots. I'm going to be fascinated to see what Bud uses for a playoff rotation

Watching that game last night and Wes was locking it down on defense and making life really hard for Steph. If he is playing like that and shooting the 3 this well, he has to be factored in as the PJ Tucker of this years team. Interesting to note that PJ played 20 minutes per game in the regular season and bumped up to 30 in the playoffs. Right now Wes is right at that 20 mpg mark and looking good in the games I have seen.

Downright confusing how good Wes has been.

Should we start Wes or is Grayson, Donte, Pat too many off the bench white guys?

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Athleticism is such a complicated thing to put your finger on. Sometimes really athletic guys fall off a cliff quickly because its all they have, sometimes it is the unathletic guys because they previously had the minimum requirement and lost step doesn't allow them to stay on the court. Either way, father time is undefeated though.
As for aging in my unscientific and biased view, I'm more worried for Midds since he never has seemed like a guy who was 100% on taking care of his body. Feel those guys drop off more quickly when they hit their 30s.

[M-C-G]

Jrue isn't good enough to be the second best player on a championship team. He was clearly the third banana behind Giannis and Midds last season. The Pels were a borderline playoff team with AD and Jrue. Not to mention, Philly would lose Seth who's one of their best players this season. Fwiw, the trade works without Donte. Feel free to remove him from the deal if you think it's too rich for Philly.

Agree to disagree regarding our part of the deal. I believe we'd be a better team this season with Haliburton + Barnes + Seth instead of Jrue. We'd also be a better team going forward cause Haliburton is 10+ years younger than Jrue! Barnes is 2 years younger as well.

Given that Simmons is refusing to play for Philly, they will definitely become way better when they trade him. The important thing is whether the trade helps the Bucks. In any case, I believe we'd still be better than Philly.

'Player X isn't good enough to be the second best on a championship team' is just not a very compelling argument to me. It is extremely hard to make the case that in different games in the playoffs last season, who was 'the second best player' on the Bucks? What Jrue did defensively was massive, to me arguably shutting down one of the greatest PG of all time in Chris Paul was what turned the series for us. So how do I calculate 'second best player'?

Most impact? Most points? Net rating? It is a silly argument to me because if the position is Middleton is second best, well, before last season a lot of people said you couldn't win a championship with Midds as your #2. If Jrue is your second, people will say you can't win a championship with him as your #2. But obviously the combination of Giannis, Midds and Jrue, however you want to label them, you know, won the championship.

So if you want to prolong the window, I can understand it, but I certainly wouldn't do it if it meant reducing my window in the short term (by either taking a step back or improving a competitor or both, which I think your trade does) and I certainly wouldn't break up the team coming off a championship season where our roster is actually better than last year if we get healthy.