Rank Bud against the other 29 coaches in the NBA

[ReasonablySober]

I think he's #7.

[KendallMarshall]

I didn't realize tyronn lue was so highly regarded around here. I always thought he was considered a mediocre coach for whatever reason.

On a totally separate note, I just want to point out that in regards to the much-maligned hill vs Carter debate, aside from the obvious in that hill was looking washed up in the Boston series, just getting Carter some minutes just for his fresh legs alone, would have paid dividends, especially late in the series when our guys were beyond gassed.

[msiris]

Playing Hill as much as he did in the playoff and not playing Carter was the last straw for me. Anybody could see the problem with that.

[BigO]

You think we have the personnel, without Middleton, to win a championship?


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No, of course not. But the Boston series showed that the Bucks could have won that series without him. Matchups are critical in the playoffs. As the series against Boston unfolded, it was clear that without Middleton the Bucks were offensively challenged.

They could have improved marginally offensively by not playing some of the personnel they did so many minutes. But they could have made up for being offenisvely challenged by improving the defense, as per the above quote from Hollinger.

Ahh gotcha. When you said “some don’t think we have the talent now to win it all” I assumed you meant without Midds…bcuz I think everyone thinks we’re contenders with Khris.

I go back and forth on how good our chances really were to beat Boston w out Khris. I agree we def left some money on the table, we could’ve been better. But whether that was enough to steal the series, I waver.

I feel like Bud got about 80% out of his available roster, roughly. The 20% we left on the table maybe swings it, maybe not.

I think somewhere around game 5 (def by game 6) BOS had us completely and fully figured out. They had an answer and a counter for everything we did, on both ends. They’re a very complete team. If that series magically became a best of 15, we might’ve lost it like 8-4. They got better as it went on.

And Tatum was individually brilliant- no adjustments can really stop him. He single-handedly shut down our best chance to steal the series late in game 6.

What do you think Bud got out of the available roster, if you had to put a percentage on it?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Not sure I can quantify it by a percentage. But if I'm forced to, I'd say 90%. But in a close series, 10% is a big deal.

While I think he could have played some players less and some more, I think his defensive schemes, given the personnel he has, played a big role in losing the series. Hollinger's analysis is a prime example.

[ShootingtheJ]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

Yes, scream this from the mountain tops. Bucks fans want to add Mo Bamba so we can continue the drop defense madness. If Horst has any control, he'll get Brook off the roster to protect Bud from himself. Bud's irrational love for Brook could destroy the Bucks.

19.2 points /100 is unbelievable, but people want to act like Hills bench minutes were the problem.

[RiotPunch]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

Yes, scream this from the mountain tops. Bucks fans want to add Mo Bamba so we can continue the drop defense madness. If Horst has any control, he'll get Brook off the roster to protect Bud from himself. Bud's irrational love for Brook could destroy the Bucks.

19.2 points /100 is unbelievable, but people want to act like Hills bench minutes were the problem.

Reminds me of Moneyball when Billy Beane traded away Carlos Pena to force Art Howe to play Scott Hatteberg at 1st base. Sometimes being GM is saving your coach from himself.

[Diggr14]

Bud is not a good coach. Top 10 is completely laughable. Yes, there are many bad NBA coaches. But to defend the 3 in todays day and age like he does is a joke. Especially with a plodding 5. What the actual hell are you doing? Terrible coaching masked by an MVP player.

[RiotPunch]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

Yes, scream this from the mountain tops. Bucks fans want to add Mo Bamba so we can continue the drop defense madness. If Horst has any control, he'll get Brook off the roster to protect Bud from himself. Bud's irrational love for Brook could destroy the Bucks.

19.2 points /100 is unbelievable, but people want to act like Hills bench minutes were the problem.

Curious to hear your thoughts on Kane's analysis with regards to bringing back Brook.

Watch on YouTube

He seems to be far too regular season focused to me. As if we can't find a free agent center to prevent major Giannis at the 5 minutes up until Playoff time. He focuses on the opposing paint production and glosses over the drop in opposing 3pt% while Brook was out, even saying maybe it was luck!

[Fotis St]

He is #30 ... he is the worst coach FOR US.
Afrer winning the ring by dumping his stubborness and adjusting game by game, I expected to losen up and make even better adjustments on the fly. I expected the best version of Bud this year. On the contrary, he got to his old stubborness and vet love that got us nowhere. So in my mind it is not a matter of coaching skills , its about timing and fit. Bud is clearly a piece of puzzle that is old concrete, has rough edges that can't be cut. As someone else said it earlier, I remember Jrue and PJ Tucker called BUD out of his @$$ with his stup** scheme and Bud was more forced to adjust his schemes than wanted by his own will.
Horst is to blame too for the roster and the vet washed collection he surrounded Giannis with.

Fire BUD & HORST

You praised the Semi Ojeleye signing…

Yes, I always liked Semi ... after he came back from his injury BUD didn't give him a role. He didn't get a chance to do anything. Same goes for Thanasis too ... BUD had made his stubborn decision to play BROOK, WES AND HILL. Then the stupid trade DDV for Ibaka happened, Semi got traded ... and there was I crying out loud for a wing trade for a player like Hamidou Diallo.

How would you rank the DDV for Ibaka trade NOW ? I didn't like it even when it happened while being one of the most strict posters for DDV here. I had been posting numerous trading ideas where DDV was the main piece.

Bottom line... we were up 3-2 against the Celtics with Game 6 at home ... BUD FAILED , JRUE FAILED and HORST FAILED to either retain last years playoff rotation (PJ , Forbes ) and wasted the DDV asset on getting Ibaka warming up the bench in the playoffs. They had an easy task , and failed miserably. After winning the chip I expected everyone to play a bit better without hesitation and anxiety... they actually did the opposite, they got worse and lazy, except Giannis. That's my conclusion for the year

[BigO]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

Yes, scream this from the mountain tops. Bucks fans want to add Mo Bamba so we can continue the drop defense madness. If Horst has any control, he'll get Brook off the roster to protect Bud from himself. Bud's irrational love for Brook could destroy the Bucks.

19.2 points /100 is unbelievable, but people want to act like Hills bench minutes were the problem.

Curious to hear your thoughts on Kane's analysis with regards to bringing back Brook.

Watch on YouTube

He seems to be far too regular season focused to me. As if we can't find a free agent center to prevent major Giannis at the 5 minutes up until Playoff time. He focuses on the opposing paint production and glosses over the drop in opposing 3pt% while Brook was out, even saying maybe it was luck!

I think you are on the money on what Kane left out or ignored.

Bud has certain "principles" or priorities which, unfortunately, form the basis of all his decisions:

1) Guarding the paint is key to a great defense and thus any scheme should emphasize that
2) Defensive rebounding is essential in playing good defense
3) Closely tied to two is the need to run the ball as the key to a good offense
4) Limit fouling and putting opponents on the free throw line.

And Bud has succeeded in each one of these areas.

The problem on defense is the game has changed dramatically over the past 5 years or more. Guarding the three is as important as guarding the paint. Especially in the playoffs where you play the best teams.

On offense, he relies so much on the fast break that his half court offense is predictable and defendable, especially during the playoffs where scores are lower and teams aren't going to let you run.

I have no faith that Bud will ever change. He's not old, but his ideas are. I'm probably 20 years older than Bud, but as much as I don't like the reliance on the three point shot in today's game, I at least recognize it.

[BroncoBuck]

He is #30 ... he is the worst coach FOR US.
Afrer winning the ring by dumping his stubborness and adjusting game by game, I expected to losen up and make even better adjustments on the fly. I expected the best version of Bud this year. On the contrary, he got to his old stubborness and vet love that got us nowhere. So in my mind it is not a matter of coaching skills , its about timing and fit. Bud is clearly a piece of puzzle that is old concrete, has rough edges that can't be cut. As someone else said it earlier, I remember Jrue and PJ Tucker called BUD out of his @$$ with his stup** scheme and Bud was more forced to adjust his schemes than wanted by his own will.
Horst is to blame too for the roster and the vet washed collection he surrounded Giannis with.

Fire BUD & HORST

You praised the Semi Ojeleye signing…

Yes, I always liked Semi ... after he came back from his injury BUD didn't give him a role. He didn't get a chance to do anything. Same goes for Thanasis too ... BUD had made his stubborn decision to play BROOK, WES AND HILL. Then the stupid trade DDV for Ibaka happened, Semi got traded ... and there was I crying out loud for a wing trade for a player like Hamidou Diallo.

How would you rank the DDV for Ibaka trade NOW ? I didn't like it even when it happened while being one of the most strict posters for DDV here. I had been posting numerous trading ideas where DDV was the main piece.

Bottom line... we were up 3-2 against the Celtics with Game 6 at home ... BUD FAILED , JRUE FAILED and HORST FAILED to either retain last years playoff rotation (PJ , Forbes ) and wasted the DDV asset on getting Ibaka warming up the bench in the playoffs. They had an easy task , and failed miserably. After winning the chip I expected everyone to play a bit better without hesitation and anxiety... they actually did the opposite, they got worse and lazy, except Giannis. That's my conclusion for the year

Did…Did you just blame Bud for…Semi being bad?

This is incredible.

Semi is completely out of the league because he is a terrible basketball player who was a fringe NBA player at best. Semi stinks

[tydett]

Nick Nurse, as a rookie head coach, pulled out a **** box-and-1 (that his team had never practiced) in the NBA finals en route to a championship, and it almost worked.

Budenholzer lucked into Jevon Carter causing disruption and getting a huge game 1 upset and never went back to him again, while using roughly the same game plan and rotations the rest of the series.

Yes, there was a talent disparity with our second best player out. Yes, we were the lower seed in the series, and it's tough to win game 7 on the road. Did anyone here ever think the Bucks never had a shot in this series? Sometimes, coaching can help overcome odds that are stacked against a team. I don't think Bud will ever be that guy. He's a great technician and manager, but he's not an innovator, which will always limit his ceiling.

[BigO]

Nick Nurse, as a rookie head coach, pulled out a **** box-and-1 (that his team had never practiced) in the NBA finals en route to a championship, and it almost worked.

Budenholzer lucked into Jevon Carter causing disruption and getting a huge game 1 upset and never went back to him again, while using roughly the same game plan and rotations the rest of the series.

Yes, there was a talent disparity with our second best player out. Yes, we were the lower seed in the series, and it's tough to win game 7 on the road. Did anyone here ever think the Bucks never had a shot in this series? Sometimes, coaching can help overcome odds that are stacked against a team. I don't think Bud will ever be that guy. He's a great technician and manager, but he's not an innovator, which will always limit his ceiling.

Good post.

Everyone should listen to Giannis's post season analysis of why the Bucks gave up so many threes. It summarizes the problem the Bucks face with Bud and with no apparent leader who will speak up.

Giannis says over and over that we followed the game plan and it was to let certain guys have threes and they unfortunately hit them.

The problem here is two fold:

1) The game plan was horrible and everyone knew it except Bud.
2) Giannis sees his role as just following the game plan. Not to speak up and ask that the plan be changed. He isn't that type of guy.

[BroncoBuck]

Nick Nurse doesn’t even make it past the Bucks if FVV doesn’t go on one of the greatest shooting runs in NBA history. Go back and watch those last few games, he could not miss. There’s an absolutely improbable fadeaway from the corner burned into my memory. He literally became a meme (New Dad Energy) for the performance he put on in those last few games bailing out the Raptors time after time.

Meanwhile the Bucks had Mirotic turn into Semi Ojeleye.

[emunney]

I don't mind talking about the defense and how to improve it, but there's too much of that talk that doesn't start from the acknowledgement that the defense was great and the bigger problem was that offensively, we 1) could not consistently enough win one-on-one matchups against a soft switching defense that allowed us, with some light action, to dictate whatever matchup we wanted, and 2) we were bad at hitting all kinds of shots -- if your name didn't rhyme with Bat Clonopin, you could not **** shoot at all.

[Dick Tate]

Everyone should listen to Giannis's post season analysis of why the Bucks gave up so many threes. It summarizes the problem the Bucks face with Bud and with no apparent leader who will speak up.

Giannis says over and over that we followed the game plan and it was to let certain guys have threes and they unfortunately hit them.

The problem here is two fold:

1) The game plan was horrible and everyone knew it except Bud.
2) Giannis sees his role as just following the game plan. Not to speak up and ask that the plan be changed. He isn't that type of guy.

I don't plan on listening to what Giannis said but am curious about what you heard him say that lead you to the conclusion that he didn't believe in the game plan?

[BigO]

Everyone should listen to Giannis's post season analysis of why the Bucks gave up so many threes. It summarizes the problem the Bucks face with Bud and with no apparent leader who will speak up.

Giannis says over and over that we followed the game plan and it was to let certain guys have threes and they unfortunately hit them.

The problem here is two fold:

1) The game plan was horrible and everyone knew it except Bud.
2) Giannis sees his role as just following the game plan. Not to speak up and ask that the plan be changed. He isn't that type of guy.

I don't plan on listening to what Giannis said but am curious about what you heard him say that lead you to the conclusion that he didn't believe in the game plan?

He didn't say anything about whether he believed in the game plan or didn't believe in it. That's my point. He doesn't see his role as interjecting himself into a game plan. He clearly, to me, was saying that he follows the game plan whatever it is and that his job is to carry it out.

He didn't say it was a good game plan nor did he say that the players just didn't execute the game plan the way it was supposed to.

Tough to criticize Giannis, but his respect for authority limits his ability to engage in this type of discussion. Every team needs a PJ type or two to keep coaches on their toes and not end up with wasted Mike McCarthy type years.

[Pachinko_]

Well I will disagree with the whole point of asking this question.
I don't see a sign that says "only re-treads are allowed in the NBA" therefore I don't know how comparing Bud to the same old circle of friends is relevant.

Lead the League Milwaukee, there's thousands of coaches out there.
You don't need the same middle aged men slapping your star's butt, other middle aged men can do it too.

[th87]

Nick Nurse doesn’t even make it past the Bucks if FVV doesn’t go on one of the greatest shooting runs in NBA history. Go back and watch those last few games, he could not miss. There’s an absolutely improbable fadeaway from the corner burned into my memory. He literally became a meme (New Dad Energy) for the performance he put on in those last few games bailing out the Raptors time after time.

Meanwhile the Bucks had Mirotic turn into Semi Ojeleye.

Didn't hurt that the defense left him open for those 3s.

[BigO]

I don't mind talking about the defense and how to improve it, but there's too much of that talk that doesn't start from the acknowledgement that the defense was great and the bigger problem was that offensively, we 1) could not consistently enough win one-on-one matchups against a soft switching defense that allowed us, with some light action, to dictate whatever matchup we wanted, and 2) we were bad at hitting all kinds of shots -- if your name didn't rhyme with Bat Clonopin, you could not **** shoot at all.

There seems to be this idea, perhaps given momentum by StatMuse, that the Bucks were just missing open shots. Let's analyze that:

1) It's no coincidence that the top 4 defensive teams in the playoffs are also the four teams left. You cannot separate the poor showing of the Bucks offense from the fact that Boston is the top rated defense in the playoffs and in the regular season. It's why Miami is shooting poorly and why the Bucks shot poorly. This isn't a coincidence.

2) I used to use StatMuse until a couple of incidents where their stats differed from what I thought I saw. I just re-watched the last two Bucks/Celtics games and there is no way the Bucks had the number of open shots that StatMuse said they did. The amount of open threes the Celtics had vs. the Bucks is not even close. I encourage people to watch the games again.

The Celtics play a switching defense (I don't know why you would call it soft) and thus always have every shooter covered, unless they decide to double someone like Giannis. The Bucks don't have the same switchable roster the Celtics do, but still would have been better off switching than leaving guys wide open on the drop.

The Boston series was a testament to coaching malfeasance. And despite that it was a seven game series. Why? My re-watch of the last two games just reinforced how great Giannis is. This was a winnable series and despite the Bucks being short-handed, the coaching let them down.