Rank Bud against the other 29 coaches in the NBA

[th87]

2014 - Full embrace of Moreyball. Surprises league. Credit to him.
2015 - Takes over as POBO. Regression to mean.
2016 - Average team with average roster.
2017 - Implosion. Fired.

2018 - Takes over for idiot. Implements Moreyball type offense with perfect weapon. Raptors figure it out.
2019 - Heat figure him out.
2020 - Escape Nets, tries something new, wins championship.
2021 - Celtics figure him out.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Mr. Doesntleavefortypercentthreepointshootersopen.

I obviously am not aware of the universe of up and coming coaches out there, but criteria has to include personability, ability to hire a strong development staff, creativity, and flexibility. Maybe someone from Spoelstra's staff. Maybe someone from Europe (Sarunas Jasikevicius was Pachinko's suggestion, which sounds intriguing).

let me get this straight. youre advocating taking a flyer on a rookie coach?

yeah no way anybody needs to listen to any more of that kind of talk.

and you need to watch more nba basketball. like maybe games besides the bucks. youll be surprised how often guys who shoot 3 balls can get open when youre also trying to prevent getting your ass dunked on

Ridiculous take and more generalities that have no basis in fact.

Of course there are rookie coaches who could do a better job than Bud. The problem is picking the right one. Memphis's coach is heads and shoulder above Bud and Memphis did a great job in finding him. I've written about him before (a Bud disciple who has none of Bud's rigidness and predictability).

Nick Nurse was a great rookie coach. Udoka is a rookie coach. So there's three off the top of my head.

Finding the right coach is not easy and takes skill and insight. But anyone who watched Bud play checkers using the same moves over and over, while his counterparts play chess, should understand that there is a problem.

And yes, when you consistently have a problem guarding threes, when the game over the last 4 years has continuously emphasized the importance of the three point line, there is a problem. Bud seems like a great guy who has no ability to adapt to what is right in front of his eyes.

If Bud came out and said he needs to grow more and he needs to adapt to the changing NBA game, both offensively and defensively, I'd be on board.

which coach would you trade bud for.... be specific.... nurse, ime, or the memphis coach you couldnt remember his actual name?

also... do you personally take responsibility if we dont win a title with this unknown rookie coach? if we lose a series because a teams hits too many 3's or dunks 100 times will you admit you **** up and advocate firing him immediately? or if khris isnt healthy would you advocate a 2nd year?

just curious how you would handle it? be specific

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

2014 - Full embrace of Moreyball. Surprises league. Credit to him.
2015 - Takes over as POBO. Regression to mean.
2016 - Average team with average roster.
2017 - Implosion. Fired.

2018 - Takes over for idiot. Implements Moreyball type offense with perfect weapon. Raptors figure it out.
2019 - Heat figure him out.
2020 - Escape Nets, tries something new, wins championship.
2021 - Celtics figure him out.

2014-2017....solid team insane results

2018-2020....normal progression championship. teams dont win championships when they havent won a playoff series yet

2021....bad break

2022-2030........ 3 more championships not 8 more championships

[Bucksmaniac]

its a bad break for bud that middleton was out this year. if somehow we dont win 10 in a row to finish out giannis prime it will always be middletons fault. unfortunately for bud khris was out this year for the elimination series so bud will have to absorb the frustration

Lol, Bud and the team were really lucky our health was very good in the Playoffs last year besides a couple games without Giannis and Donte’s absence, so if anything it evens out.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

its a bad break for bud that middleton was out this year. if somehow we dont win 10 in a row to finish out giannis prime it will always be middletons fault. unfortunately for bud khris was out this year for the elimination series so bud will have to absorb the frustration

Lol, Bud and the team were really lucky our health was very good in the Playoffs last year besides a couple games without Giannis and Donte’s absence, so if anything it evens out.

yeah too bad we stayed healthy or we could have fired bud, dumped middleton, and trashed the jrue trade.

then we won and we got 11 months of harmony. now some are back at it. that was my point im glad you grasped it

[Dick Tate]

This is one of those kind of threads that won't need a sticky to stay on the 1st page throughout the summer. Nice work, PP.

[Dick Tate]

I encourage everyone to read The Athletic article on why the Bucks lost. I won't go thru the whole article, but here are just two paragraphs to give you an idea:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."

Besides the obvious coaching flaws, the article also examines the flaws in the Bucks roster, given that so many teams are spreading teams like Milwaukee and Phoenix out to guard the three point line and some teams aren't equipped to handle it.

Bud has to go (I know he won't), but there are roster issues also that need to be addressed. The status quo isn't acceptable.

Everyone who wants Bud gone should lead their posts with this qualifier.

[BigO]

let me get this straight. youre advocating taking a flyer on a rookie coach?

yeah no way anybody needs to listen to any more of that kind of talk.

and you need to watch more nba basketball. like maybe games besides the bucks. youll be surprised how often guys who shoot 3 balls can get open when youre also trying to prevent getting your ass dunked on

Ridiculous take and more generalities that have no basis in fact.

Of course there are rookie coaches who could do a better job than Bud. The problem is picking the right one. Memphis's coach is heads and shoulder above Bud and Memphis did a great job in finding him. I've written about him before (a Bud disciple who has none of Bud's rigidness and predictability).

Nick Nurse was a great rookie coach. Udoka is a rookie coach. So there's three off the top of my head.

Finding the right coach is not easy and takes skill and insight. But anyone who watched Bud play checkers using the same moves over and over, while his counterparts play chess, should understand that there is a problem.

And yes, when you consistently have a problem guarding threes, when the game over the last 4 years has continuously emphasized the importance of the three point line, there is a problem. Bud seems like a great guy who has no ability to adapt to what is right in front of his eyes.

If Bud came out and said he needs to grow more and he needs to adapt to the changing NBA game, both offensively and defensively, I'd be on board.

which coach would you trade bud for.... be specific.... nurse, ime, or the memphis coach you couldnt remember his actual name?

also... do you personally take responsibility if we dont win a title with this unknown rookie coach? if we lose a series because a teams hits too many 3's or dunks 100 times will you admit you **** up and advocate firing him immediately? or if khris isnt healthy would you advocate a 2nd year?

just curious how you would handle it? be specific

Funny that your praise for Bud is non-specific, but you want specifics from me, which I try to do in every post.

I have detailed ad nauseum the specific flaws in Bud's defensive scheme, use of personnel and offensive flaws, particularly during the playoffs, where everything slows down and you can't rely on fast breaks.

And it's not just me. While the media are generally lap dogs and rarely criticize a coach, I have posted detailed articles, including yesterday, on how specific Bud moves against Boston derailed the Bucks chances. I don't know how much more specific I can get.

I already detailed two days ago which coaches I think are better than Bud in the area that I think Bud lacks. And yes, I'd trade Bud for Taylor Jenkins and Nick Nurse, in a heartbeat.

So you can have the last word. You like Bud. I think he needs to go. Your position will prevail as there is no chance Bud is gone. Interesting talking about it, but Bud is staying.

[Perseus1966]

Players hit their shots coach is good ,they dont coach is a looser.
Bud is stubborn,a coach must be versatile,Dedmon last night in 11 min scored 6 points like Brook ,sent Brook to the post dont let him shoot 3s,an average european coach would win those games with Lopez only .
Dont use Hill ,dont you see he cant play? use anybody else ,even Thanasi.

[emunney]

I think Bud's loyal to a fault. Hill has given the team a lot during Bud's tenure, he *earned* Bud's trust through a long, productive career and two separate stints here. I do blame him for not seeing that Hill being unplayable was less about what Hill was doing than about what Boston was doing (getting him switched onto their wings, who could both bully him and shoot over the top of him), and that playing him was hurting us. But I get it. And all the same things are true to a lesser extent with Allen.

Ultimately, if you can limit penetration with on-ball defense, Brook doesn't have a 20 foot closeout from the rim to the corner time after time after time and he's playable. And I think it pays to have a big center against certain teams, particularly one who can score away from the rim, even if the quality of his 3pt shooting is vastly exaggerated in the media's collective imagination. Just give me a stable of smart guys who can make simple plays offensively and stay in front of their man on the other end. The game is not that complicated.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Funny that your praise for Bud is non-specific, but you want specifics from me, which I try to do in every post.

I have detailed ad nauseum the specific flaws in Bud's defensive scheme, use of personnel and offensive flaws, particularly during the playoffs, where everything slows down and you can't rely on fast breaks.

And it's not just me. While the media are generally lap dogs and rarely criticize a coach, I have posted detailed articles, including yesterday, on how specific Bud moves against Boston derailed the Bucks chances. I don't know how much more specific I can get.

I already detailed two days ago which coaches I think are better than Bud in the area that I think Bud lacks. And yes, I'd trade Bud for Taylor Jenkins and Nick Nurse, in a heartbeat.

So you can have the last word. You like Bud. I think he needs to go. Your position will prevail as there is no chance Bud is gone. Interesting talking about it, but Bud is staying.

last years playoffs defense

atlanta..... 110.4 Ortg..... .556 ts%
pheonix.... 114.5 Ortg..... .590 ts%

this years playoffs defense

boston.... 109.8 Ortg..... .563 ts%

in the boston series we were

milwaukee.... 101.7 Ortg.... .496 ts%


i understand your getting specific with his flaws on defense but to me its like nitpicking jeff bezos business acumen. im sure hes made mistakes but who gives a ****. look at the big picture.

in every basketball game a team scores 90-120ish points. thats alot of baskets. looking at tape you can identify a breakdown on every single one of those baskets somewhere. but its the offense job to exploit a defense and its weaknesses and every defense has them. in our case... again.... look at the big picture. we shut the celtics down ALOT. hell we befuddled them in some of these games with our defensive schemes.

the big picture is our defense is fine. its always been fine. it remains fine. in fact in this series it was at times supurb and it was more than enough to win. discuss our offensive woes. its not even like im a bud fan i just find discussion of our defense as some sort of reason why we lost this series a compoletely moronic exercise. boston was throwing heaters on us and we still managed to shut down the vast majority of what they were trying to do. ultimately it failed but do you really think we were supposed to win a series where our Ortg was 101 and we had a sub .500 ts% if we had just played better defense? how the hell is any coach supposed to compensate for the trash offense we exhibited with khris out of the lineup and every guy we had laying bricks. it was our 3rd rated offense that totally crapped the bed and that has very littel to do with bud. thats where my disconnect is.

[BigO]

Funny that your praise for Bud is non-specific, but you want specifics from me, which I try to do in every post.

I have detailed ad nauseum the specific flaws in Bud's defensive scheme, use of personnel and offensive flaws, particularly during the playoffs, where everything slows down and you can't rely on fast breaks.

And it's not just me. While the media are generally lap dogs and rarely criticize a coach, I have posted detailed articles, including yesterday, on how specific Bud moves against Boston derailed the Bucks chances. I don't know how much more specific I can get.

I already detailed two days ago which coaches I think are better than Bud in the area that I think Bud lacks. And yes, I'd trade Bud for Taylor Jenkins and Nick Nurse, in a heartbeat.

So you can have the last word. You like Bud. I think he needs to go. Your position will prevail as there is no chance Bud is gone. Interesting talking about it, but Bud is staying.

last years playoffs defense

atlanta..... 110.4 Ortg..... .556 ts%
pheonix.... 114.5 Ortg..... .590 ts%

this years playoffs defense

boston.... 109.8 Ortg..... .563 ts%

in the boston series we were

milwaukee.... 101.7 Ortg.... .496 ts%


i understand your getting specific with his flaws on defense but to me its like nitpicking jeff bezos business acumen. im sure hes made mistakes but who gives a ****. look at the big picture.

in every basketball game a team scores 90-120ish points. thats alot of baskets. looking at tape you can identify a breakdown on every single one of those baskets somewhere. but its the offense job to exploit a defense and its weaknesses and every defense has them. in our case... again.... look at the big picture. we shut the celtics down ALOT. hell we befuddled them in some of these games with our defensive schemes.

the big picture is our defense is fine. its always been fine. it remains fine. in fact in this series it was at times supurb and it was more than enough to win. discuss our offensive woes. its not even like im a bud fan i just find discussion of our defense as some sort of reason why we lost this series a compoletely moronic exercise. boston was throwing heaters on us and we still managed to shut down the vast majority of what they were trying to do. ultimately it failed but do you really think we were supposed to win a series where our Ortg was 101 and we had a sub .500 ts% if we had just played better defense? how the hell is any coach supposed to compensate for the trash offense we exhibited with khris out of the lineup and every guy we had laying bricks. it was our 3rd rated offense that totally crapped the bed and that has very littel to do with bud. thats where my disconnect is.

Our defense was fine? If this is nit picking, then count me in.


" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."

[buckboy]

Might not need a better coach, but one that does something differently might make us better.

Absolutely hate him as a person and not saying this would be better, but what do the Bucks look like under D’Antoni? What do we look like under Stotts?

Remind me why I'm supposed to hate D'Antoni again?

[buckboy]

Just want to say that mentioning Durant's toe should be **** ban-worthy.

[emunney]

To me the only no doubters are Spo, Lue and probably Nurse. Malone, Snyder and Kerr all good coaches in their own way like Bud but all have flaws like Bud.

Lue's a **** machine.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Funny that your praise for Bud is non-specific, but you want specifics from me, which I try to do in every post.

I have detailed ad nauseum the specific flaws in Bud's defensive scheme, use of personnel and offensive flaws, particularly during the playoffs, where everything slows down and you can't rely on fast breaks.

And it's not just me. While the media are generally lap dogs and rarely criticize a coach, I have posted detailed articles, including yesterday, on how specific Bud moves against Boston derailed the Bucks chances. I don't know how much more specific I can get.

I already detailed two days ago which coaches I think are better than Bud in the area that I think Bud lacks. And yes, I'd trade Bud for Taylor Jenkins and Nick Nurse, in a heartbeat.

So you can have the last word. You like Bud. I think he needs to go. Your position will prevail as there is no chance Bud is gone. Interesting talking about it, but Bud is staying.

last years playoffs defense

atlanta..... 110.4 Ortg..... .556 ts%
pheonix.... 114.5 Ortg..... .590 ts%

this years playoffs defense

boston.... 109.8 Ortg..... .563 ts%

in the boston series we were

milwaukee.... 101.7 Ortg.... .496 ts%


i understand your getting specific with his flaws on defense but to me its like nitpicking jeff bezos business acumen. im sure hes made mistakes but who gives a ****. look at the big picture.

in every basketball game a team scores 90-120ish points. thats alot of baskets. looking at tape you can identify a breakdown on every single one of those baskets somewhere. but its the offense job to exploit a defense and its weaknesses and every defense has them. in our case... again.... look at the big picture. we shut the celtics down ALOT. hell we befuddled them in some of these games with our defensive schemes.

the big picture is our defense is fine. its always been fine. it remains fine. in fact in this series it was at times supurb and it was more than enough to win. discuss our offensive woes. its not even like im a bud fan i just find discussion of our defense as some sort of reason why we lost this series a compoletely moronic exercise. boston was throwing heaters on us and we still managed to shut down the vast majority of what they were trying to do. ultimately it failed but do you really think we were supposed to win a series where our Ortg was 101 and we had a sub .500 ts% if we had just played better defense? how the hell is any coach supposed to compensate for the trash offense we exhibited with khris out of the lineup and every guy we had laying bricks. it was our 3rd rated offense that totally crapped the bed and that has very littel to do with bud. thats where my disconnect is.

Our defense was fine? If this is nit picking, then count me in.


" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."

I. dont. give. a. ****. about. our. defense. It was fine.

I will listen to this. Do you have numbers related to whether we were better with lopez on the court offensively?

That Im curious about. what were our on/offs with Lopez offensively it might explain the desperation?

And besides we were always going to play Lopez. **** sgtupid to suggest Bud should have completely shelfed him. Like idiot level that he wouldnt play at least 20 minutes. We have no rotation if he doesnt and his backup Ibaka is like a god damn one legged version of him. So i say we gotta stop the tard discussion like playing him wasnt an option. Were we better offensively at least with him out there? Might be time to let ShootingtheJ have his sunshine related to him moving forward. I was on the fence. Perhaps Lopez needs to be done. Our small ball lineup sucked but if our Lopez lineup is consistently worse then its time to move on

[Wooderson]

I. dont. give. a. ****. about. our. defense. It was fine.

I will listen to this. Do you have numbers related to whether we were better with lopez on the court offensively?

That Im curious about. what were our on/offs with Lopez offensively it might explain the desperation?

And besides we were always going to play Lopez. **** sgtupid to suggest Bud should have completely shelfed him. Like idiot level that he wouldnt play at least 20 minutes. We have no rotation if he doesnt and his backup Ibaka is like a god damn one legged version of him. So i say we gotta stop the tard discussion like playing him wasnt an option. Were we better offensively at least with him out there? Might be time to let ShootingtheJ have his sunshine related to him moving forward. I was on the fence. Perhaps Lopez needs to be done. Our small ball lineup sucked but if our Lopez lineup is consistently worse then its time to move on

Brook had the lowest on court offensive rating of anyone getting major minutes (90.5 pts/100) and Bucks had their best offensive rating with him off the court (105.8 pts/100) compared to any other player off. Though not sure how much of his minutes were stacked without Giannis. Because the Bucks **** sucked with Giannis on the bench this series.

All I know is for sure is that it was ludicrous Jevon Carter couldn't see a minute of meaningful action after game 1.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I. dont. give. a. ****. about. our. defense. It was fine.

I will listen to this. Do you have numbers related to whether we were better with lopez on the court offensively?

That Im curious about. what were our on/offs with Lopez offensively it might explain the desperation?

And besides we were always going to play Lopez. **** sgtupid to suggest Bud should have completely shelfed him. Like idiot level that he wouldnt play at least 20 minutes. We have no rotation if he doesnt and his backup Ibaka is like a god damn one legged version of him. So i say we gotta stop the tard discussion like playing him wasnt an option. Were we better offensively at least with him out there? Might be time to let ShootingtheJ have his sunshine related to him moving forward. I was on the fence. Perhaps Lopez needs to be done. Our small ball lineup sucked but if our Lopez lineup is consistently worse then its time to move on

Brook had the lowest on court offensive rating of anyone getting major minutes (90.5 pts/100) and Bucks had their best offensive rating with him off the court (105.8 pts/100) compared to any other player off. Though not sure how much of his minutes were stacked without Giannis. Because the Bucks **** sucked with Giannis on the bench this series.

All I know is for sure is that it was ludicrous Jevon Carter couldn't see a minute of meaningful action after game 1.

no real thoughts on javon carter. ive never thought of him as a difference maker in this league.

as it relates to lopez specifically....not playing him should not have been considered practically. just practically the idea he wouldnt play isnt reasonable. he is part of who we are and has been a big part of who we are. you dont just dump a dude like that for a javon carter. thats not how it works..... again practically its not how it works.

it will be interesting to see what we do this summer with lopez moving forward. its not like we were all feeling like the world was fabulous this season when he was out. the small ball lineups we used werent like omg this is who we need to be moviung forward so not sure what the answer for that is. it better not be javon carter thats for sure

either way thanks for sharing his numbers. it will be interesting to see what happens this offseason

[Baddy Chuck]

I think he's fine but I also think he's unquestionably a guy whose "by the game plan" attitude hurts him far more often then other guys considered high tier coaches. I think the defensive stuff has shown a lot and gets a lot of attention but I also think it shows itself on offensive side a ton as well.

Obviously we're not looking at a 1:1 scenario or anything here but one thing that stood out to me this playoffs. Miami faced off against Atlanta. Anti-PJ dudes loved to point out how Trae got put on PJ who just stood in the corner and couldn't do anything. In our series PJ was guarded by Trae for 20 minutes, shot two shots from three and didn't, and wasn't asked, to do anything else. Fast forward to this series and Atlanta once again tries hiding Trae on PJ. What happens? Spo sends PJ into the post. Spo attacks the mismatch. Trae guarded PJ all of 5 minutes in their series. Why? 14 points and 2 assists on 7 shots, 5/7 inside the arc. I think there's a bunch of stuff like this throughout the years that Bud overlooks that just makes life increasingly harder on himself.

[paulpressey25]

This is one of those kind of threads that won't need a sticky to stay on the 1st page throughout the summer. Nice work, PP.

People needed an outlet, and I needed the Bucks trade thread clear so I can talk about pipe dream Lillard deals.