RealGM

Suns have won 3 in a row, including a win over the Cavs in their last game, but are fighting to make the play-in.

We can all lament our coaching choices post Bud but we should not be pining for him at all. He's taken a 49-33 Suns team and turned them into a 34-37 team. He had a beef with Nurkic and they dumped him. Vogel got fired after his lone 49 win season. Then why shouldn't Bud be fired too? So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on and his season with the Suns has been a disaster.

Dunn has been a decent late FRP pick but makes AJJ look like Curry on offense. He's had a nice run the past week but is shooting just 43% overall, 31% from 3 and 47% from the free throw line.

Winning this will assure a winning west coast trip and those are never easy (Cavs are 0-3 on their current west coast trip).

And finally, our favorite Suns fan

MickeyDavis wrote:
Dunn has been a decent late FRP pick but makes AJJ look like Curry on offense. He's had a nice run the past week but is shooting just 43% overall, 31% from 3 and 47% from the free throw line.

Yeah Dunn is Kuzma but he shoots less.

MickeyDavis wrote:So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on

Bud changed our culture. And had the greatest multi-year run of any Bucks coach ever.

Always find it interesting that after we run HOF coaches like Nellie, Karl and Bud out of town, our situation actually gets worse.

Karl and Bud's runs were very similar with the Bucks. Right place/right time and then flamed out quickly after hitting peak. Obviously Bud's peak was higher. I will always be pissed at Kohl for running Nellie out of town.

paulpressey25 wrote:

MickeyDavis wrote:So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on

Bud changed our culture. And had the greatest multi-year run of any Bucks coach ever.

Always find it interesting that after we run HOF coaches like Nellie, Karl and Bud out of town, our situation actually gets worse.

If we run Dame out of town, a HOF talent, would you expect our situation to get worse, or are you waiting to see what the return is?

Those aren’t exactly the same situations, you don’t expect coaches to regress due to age like you do a player, but it was time to move on from Bud. He was a great coach here, but it wasn’t a forgone conclusion that we would have gotten worse. The issue wasn’t moving off him, it was ending up with Griffin and then Doc. We struck out twice, but it didn’t have to be that way. I’m pretty sure we’d be in a better position if the board here would have made those decisions.

paulpressey25 wrote:

MickeyDavis wrote:So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on

Bud changed our culture. And had the greatest multi-year run of any Bucks coach ever.

Always find it interesting that after we run HOF coaches like Nellie, Karl and Bud out of town, our situation actually gets worse.

Using Nellie and Bud in the same sentence should result in banishment. PP, can you do that to yourself?

MickeyDavis wrote:Suns have won 3 in a row, including a win over the Cavs in their last game, but are fighting to make the play-in.

We can all lament our coaching choices post Bud but we should not be pining for him at all. He's taken a 49-33 Suns team and turned them into a 34-37 team. He had a beef with Nurkic and they dumped him. Vogel got fired after his lone 49 win season. Then why shouldn't Bud be fired too? So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on and his season with the Suns has been a disaster.

Dunn has been a decent late FRP pick but makes AJJ look like Curry on offense. He's had a nice run the past week but is shooting just 43% overall, 31% from 3 and 47% from the free throw line.

Winning this will assure a winning west coast trip and those are never easy (Cavs are 0-3 on their current west coast trip).

And finally, our favorite Suns fan

Thank you for the reminder about suns fans. Holy moly was that a spectacle of douche.

ShootingtheJ wrote:

MickeyDavis wrote:
Dunn has been a decent late FRP pick but makes AJJ look like Curry on offense. He's had a nice run the past week but is shooting just 43% overall, 31% from 3 and 47% from the free throw line.

Yeah Dunn is Kuzma but he shoots less.

I realize Kuzma has played pretty good defense, butDunn is a much betterdefender than Kuzma.

Now if Kuzma can duplicate the last two games he's played, he can be a positive asset. He needs to rebound consistently and be efficient. I don't care if he doesn't shoot much. In fact, I'd prefer it.

If you offered Bud and Doc to swap places I wonder if they’d take it?

blazza18 wrote:If you offered Bud and Doc to swap places I wonder if they’d take it?

Bud is coming back. Doc would want to stay here. Phoenix is a toxic mess with Ishbia.

paulpressey25 wrote:

blazza18 wrote:If you offered Bud and Doc to swap places I wonder if they’d take it?

Bud is coming back. Doc would want to stay here. Phoenix is a toxic mess with Ishbia.

The real question is which roster would Bud take? I'm pretty sure it's the one he coached.

Also, would Doc win more than Bud in Phoenix? Yes, by a country mile. Bud seems like hes trying to get canned like Monty did in Detroit.

BigO wrote:I realize Kuzma has played pretty good defense, butDunn is a much betterdefender than Kuzma.

Now if Kuzma can duplicate the last two games he's played, he can be a positive asset. He needs to rebound consistently and be efficient. I don't care if he doesn't shoot much. In fact, I'd prefer it.

According to the Suns forum I read, when Dunn is in the game the Suns have one of, if not the best defensive ratings in the league. Bud planted him on the bench in January and has rode vets like Plumlee and Tyus Jones who have killed them and their season.

As we know, Bud is stubborn as hell. Only way he's back is if Booker and Durant are traded. Bud is not much different than Doc imo. Neither are the answer.

Be Here Now wrote:

BigO wrote:I realize Kuzma has played pretty good defense, butDunn is a much betterdefender than Kuzma.

Now if Kuzma can duplicate the last two games he's played, he can be a positive asset. He needs to rebound consistently and be efficient. I don't care if he doesn't shoot much. In fact, I'd prefer it.

According to the Suns forum I read, when Dunn is in the game the Suns have one of, if not the best defensive ratings in the league. Bud planted him on the bench in January and has rode vets like Plumlee and Tyus Jones who have killed them and their season.

As we know, Bud is stubborn as hell. Only way he's back is if Booker and Durant are traded. Bud is not much different than Doc imo. Neither are the answer.

The Suns board is full of BS. I'm a Dunn backer, and their defense is better with him on, but it's still one of the worst in the league even with him on the floor.

BigO wrote:Using Nellie and Bud in the same sentence should result in banishment. PP, can you do that to yourself?

Looked up both coaching records. Interestingly Nellie had some real clinker seasons and a losing playoff record.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html#all_coach-stats

Bud with better percentages.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/budenmi99c.html#all_coach-stats

Not weighing in who was better. Both Bucks legends. Both run out of town after the owner got frustrated with an inability to win a (another) title.

Out of the 13 two-man lineups w/ Giannis for the Bucks this year that have played at least 100+ minutes:

1. Giannis/KPJ: +18.3 net rating
2. Giannis/Rollins: +12.5
3. Giannis/Middleton: +11.5
4. Giannis/AJ: +10.5
5. Giannis/GTJ: +9.1
…
11. Giannis/Prince: +3.4
12. Giannis/Dre: -1.1
13. Giannis/Wright: -4.1

With Wright gone, Dre and Prince are literally the worst and 2nd worst two-man lineups with Giannis and Doc has spent almost the whole season starting either both of them next to Giannis, or starting Prince out of position next to Giannis. The guy is a total moron and we have to just sit here and pray he stumbles into a sensible starting 5 before the playoffs.

Prez wrote:Out of the 13 two-man lineups w/ Giannis for the Bucks this year that have played at least 100+ minutes:

1. Giannis/KPJ: +18.3 net rating
2. Giannis/Rollins: +12.5
3. Giannis/Middleton: +11.5
4. Giannis/AJ: +10.5
5. Giannis/GTJ: +9.1
…
11. Giannis/Prince: +3.4
12. Giannis/Dre: -1.1
13. Giannis/Wright: -4.1

With Wright gone, Dre and Prince are literally the worst and 2nd worst two-man lineups with Giannis and Doc has spent almost the whole season starting either both of them next to Giannis, or starting Prince out of position next to Giannis. The guy is a total moron and we have to just sit here and pray he stumbles into a sensible starting 5 before the playoffs.

Ya definitely not counting on that at all he will start prince at sg for the last 12 gms lol
Any sensible person would have started GTJ AJ or KPJ immediately after the trade with kuzma in starting lineup

paulpressey25 wrote:

BigO wrote:Using Nellie and Bud in the same sentence should result in banishment. PP, can you do that to yourself?

Looked up both coaching records. Interestingly Nellie had some real clinker seasons and a losing playoff record.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html#all_coach-stats

Bud with better percentages.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/budenmi99c.html#all_coach-stats

Not weighing in who was better. Both Bucks legends. Both run out of town after the owner got frustrated with an inability to win a (another) title.

It should be remembered that Nellie was replaced with another outstanding coach in Dell Harris. The Bucks fell because they couldn't bridge the talent gap, not because of a coaching issue.

ShootingtheJ wrote:

paulpressey25 wrote:

BigO wrote:Using Nellie and Bud in the same sentence should result in banishment. PP, can you do that to yourself?

Looked up both coaching records. Interestingly Nellie had some real clinker seasons and a losing playoff record.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html#all_coach-stats

Bud with better percentages.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/budenmi99c.html#all_coach-stats

Not weighing in who was better. Both Bucks legends. Both run out of town after the owner got frustrated with an inability to win a (another) title.

It should be remembered that Nellie was replaced with another outstanding coach in Dell Harris. The Bucks fell because they couldn't bridge the talent gap, not because of a coaching issue.

The irony is, if Nellie had drafted a local legend in 1983 like every fan wanted, instead of Randy Breuer, Nellie would have had the talent level to coach here forever. The local was Marquette's Doc Rivers. How many realize Doc was an All-Star and 30 VORP for his career?

ShootingtheJ wrote:

ShootingtheJ wrote:

paulpressey25 wrote:
Looked up both coaching records. Interestingly Nellie had some real clinker seasons and a losing playoff record.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html#all_coach-stats

Bud with better percentages.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/budenmi99c.html#all_coach-stats

Not weighing in who was better. Both Bucks legends. Both run out of town after the owner got frustrated with an inability to win a (another) title.

It should be remembered that Nellie was replaced with another outstanding coach in Dell Harris. The Bucks fell because they couldn't bridge the talent gap, not because of a coaching issue.

The irony is, if Nellie had drafted a local legend in 1983 like every fan wanted, instead of Randy Breuer, Nellie would have had the talent level to coach here forever. The local was Marquette's Doc Rivers. How many realize Doc was an All-Star and 30 VORP for his career?

1983. The year Horst was born. Coincidence? Yes. Absolutely.

paulpressey25 wrote:

BigO wrote:Using Nellie and Bud in the same sentence should result in banishment. PP, can you do that to yourself?

Looked up both coaching records. Interestingly Nellie had some real clinker seasons and a losing playoff record.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html#all_coach-stats

Bud with better percentages.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/budenmi99c.html#all_coach-stats

Not weighing in who was better. Both Bucks legends. Both run out of town after the owner got frustrated with an inability to win a (another) title.

PP,

Looking at win/loss records is a horrible way to evaluate a coach. I call it the Mike McCarthy/Mike Ditka syndrome. Here's how they should be evaluated:

1) Independent of who the coach is, determine the level of talent on that team.

2) After making the evaluation, ask yourself, what would an average coach do with that talent? If you believe the talent is at a championship level, then it is likely that team will win or compete for a championship evey year with an average coach.

3) If the coach is top two or three, they'll most likely win every year.

4) If the coach is Griffin or Buck's Kidd bad, they still have a chance, but will most likely not succeed.

Talent is by far the decisive ingredient in success. Coaches get too much blame and too much credit. In my view one of the biggest negatives on many coaches is how stubborn and unwilling they are to change and be creative.

Bud's fatal flaw is that he had to be dragged to make changes, especdially in scheme. I'm beginning to be won over that Doc, despite trying different schemes sometimes, is also stubborn. His devotion to Prince and lineups that make no sense is hurting the Bucks.

Can they getsomeone better? I don't know. There's not that many coaches that are head and shoulders better than average.