Post Game Bucks/Heat

[GO BUCK5]

Bobby Simmons: "We have to play our balls off."

I thought that's what he said... but I was like "no way"

Glad to see Bell making some shots.. hopefully he gets a few good games going. We need our bench to produce and lose their balls...

[EastSideBucksFan]

On that note, Bogut does not have the trust of his teammates all the time. When he gets the ball in the post he needs to take it strong. After he was successful with his first two shots last night he got the ball a couple more times after that only to throw up "flip" shots. I think one of them was a left handed no look hook shot that didn't even touch rim. After that, he didn't see the ball anymore. He needs to be more patient and even be willing to pass it back out to the perimeter and reestablish position. When he does this, he usually will see the ball again and is in a better position.

From where I was watching, he was looking good in the beginning, he kept running pick and rolls and getting open (didn't mean he always got the ball but it was working nonetheless) until the first time-out (I'm not sure which team took it) but when they came back the guards stopped looking for him alltogether and it turnt into a bit of a dribble-fest for the rest of the quarter. I switched off after that but I have no idea why, when Bogut was obviously a focal point at the start of the game, the ball would suddenly start avoiding him like the plague & this time it clearly wasn't his fault.

Bogut sees the ball early in the first and early in the third consistently. After the first few minutes of the quarters he tends to not see the ball.

I'm of the belief that Bogut is typically only seeing the ball when LK draws up plays for him. After the Bucks run their first five scripted offensive sets, then Bogut doesn't see the ball again until a timeout or a scripted play.

I have a feeling Bogut is not very popular with his teammates.

[paulpressey25]

The Voskuhl signing. He's been OK but I'm sorry, $3M for Jake Voskuhl is just plain dumb..

None of you guys can fault Harris for this one.....the only way you fault Harris is that he didn't do something with his total $8mm in cap space other than Dez and Voskuhl. But once Dez was signed, that $3mm paid to Jake was very smart money.

Midranger made a good point two years ago about all the second string centers out there better than Gadz who aren't paid much. Harris did the smart thing here and got a serviceable guy for $3mm on a one-year contract......he realized his mistake with Gadz, corrected it and didn't compound things.

And to go back to the discussion of how that cap space was used, I'm not sure I'd be any happier now had we tossed the entire load on a 5-year/$40mm deal for Varajao or Darko. I'm glad LH and Herb were frugal here.

[fam3381]

I hope he develops a little turn around fade away and maybe a hook or something along those lines to compliment it? I think he is capable of something like that.

As for right now he is a pick-n-pop player, a very good catch and shoot player and a solid face up player who can drive around his defender at times.

I agree, the post is not a strength right now in spite of what he's previously done in China.

He definitely showed the turnaround jumper a lot in the CBA and internationally, so that should come. Which I think is crucial since it's a shot he should be able to get whenever he wants. That's the one thing he doesn't have right now--an ability to get a good shot even when the defense is gameplanning him. He's very susceptible to guys ripping him when he makes a post move too.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I agree that Voskuhl was a good signing. I don't really care how much our role players are paid if they're on 1 and 2 year contracts. I'd love to see a long term philosophy based on giving long term contracts only to your five starters and your rookies, and short deals to all their backups, so that you can retain flexibility at all times.

[europa]

I'm fine with Voskuhl only getting a one-year deal and I agree he's been serviceable. But I just don't think you pay a guy like that more than $1.5M a year. I just think paying him twice as much as he's worth is stupid but Harris has done that numerous times - he grossly overpaid for Gadz; he grossly overpaid for Mason; he grossly overpaid for Bell (in terms of the length of the deal).

I just have a real issue overpaying for average or worse players. I'm fine with overpaying a bit for top players. I think that's a necessary byproduct of the game today. But you just can't saddle your roster with so much dead weight and that's what Harris has done.

Again, people can single out my post from two years ago where I praised Harris and throw it in my face and that's fine. I can take it. But two years ago, I never envisioned Harris making the series of incredibly poor moves (in my opinion) that he's made since that time. I really did think he had a clue how to build this team but like FBF warned me many times, my belief in Harris would not be justified in the long run. He tried to tell me that what I was seeing was not going to last and Harris simply didn't have the qualities needed to truly build this team correctly.

He was right.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I just think paying him twice as much as he's worth is stupid but Harris has done that numerous times - he grossly overpaid for Gadz; he grossly overpaid for Mason; he grossly overpaid for Bell (in terms of the length of the deal).

Don't forget Redd, who he overpaid for by $5 million per year.

I'm fine with overpaying a bit for top players. I think that's a necessary byproduct of the game today.

It wasn't a biproduct with Mike Miller or Kevin Martin. It was an option for the Pistons with Big Ben, but they passed and did without him.

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-

Don't forget Redd, who he overpaid for by $5 million per year.

As I said, I'm fine with overpaying a bit for top players. Redd is a top player. In my opinion, that's easily the best move Harris has made so far given how it retained the only player on the team who's been anywhere close to All-Star caliber. If only all of Harris' moves could have worked out as well as the Redd move has.

[fam3381]

And to go back to the discussion of how that cap space was used, I'm not sure I'd be any happier now had we tossed the entire load on a 5-year/$40mm deal for Varajao or Darko. I'm glad LH and Herb were frugal here.

I don't think there was an obvious move to make with the full $8 million. We maybe could have gone after Wallace more aggressively but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Darko is Darko. Same sh**, different year. I thought that might be a great signing for Memphis but he hasn't shown any improvement.

I have no problems giving Harris a lot of credit for the Yi pick. We won't know his true value for a while, but all signs are promising at the moment.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

As I said, I'm fine with overpaying a bit for top players.

Does "a bit" extend all the way up to 50% overpayment?

Redd is a top player.

A top 40 or 50 player

In my opinion, that's easily the best move Harris has made so far given how it retained the only player on the team who's been anywhere close to All-Star caliber. If only all of Harris' moves could have worked out as well as the Redd move has.

Redd isn't just paid like an All-Star player. He's paid like a superstar. What is the limit for how much we could pay a player and still be happy that he performs almost as good as an all-star? If it isn't $17 million a year, is it $25? $40?

[europa]

I think Redd is a Top 35 player in this league. Most league assessments I've seen agree with that placement. But the hell with that, it's time to start wondering what this team could do with Tracy McGrady.

[Newz]

I think Redd is a Top 35 player in this league. Most league assessments I've seen agree with that placement. But the hell with that, it's time to start wondering what this team could do with Tracy McGrady.

There is no need to wonder... Trading for McGrady with this team is like purposefully tanking until his contract expires. That guy can't stay healthy and we don't have a Yao type guy to keep us in the playoff hunt while McGrady misses 10-15 game stretches two or three times per season.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I think Redd is a Top 35 player in this league. Most league assessments I've seen agree with that placement. But the hell with that, it's time to start wondering what this team could do with Tracy McGrady.

At least TMac would be something new for us to banter over, right? Let the Houston fans debate whether Redd is top 35 or top 40.

[fam3381]

I just think paying him twice as much as he's worth is stupid but Harris has done that numerous times - he grossly overpaid for Gadz; he grossly overpaid for Mason; he grossly overpaid for Bell (in terms of the length of the deal).

I think the Voskuhl and Gadz signings should be used in contrasting terms if anything. While you could argue Voskuhl is worth less than $3 mil per, giving him a one year deal gives you plenty of flexibility...aside from being more productive than Gadz at half the price, JV actually provides some use in a trade (for matching purposes), whereas Gadz is just deadweight all around.

Of all the guys on the team, that perceived $1.5 million in overpayment is way down the list of money not well spent IMO. Voskuhl's been better than I thought he'd be on the court and he's our best cheerleader on the bench. I'm fine with that for what we paid.

I do share your fundamental gag reflex against giving role players getting long-term deals.

[old skool]

It is easy to second guess GMs on contract amounts, but very few GMs don't have several overpayments (in the eyes of the second guessers) on their roster.

Cap space is a perishable commodity and its use can only be evaluated in the context of how else it could be used at the time it was viable. It is somewhat pointless to bemoan Redd's contract as excessive. The bigger question is what should Harris have done with the money instead? Sign Larry Hughes? The list of SG scorers was pretty short that summer.

It is also easy to bash Redd, as the team's highest paid player. But the Bucks would be a heck of a team if every player had improved as much as Redd has over the past three seasons.

oLd sKool

[europa]

It is also easy to bash Redd, as the team's highest paid player. But the Bucks would be a heck of a team if every player had improved as much as Redd has over the past three seasons.

oLd sKool

Why this point continues to be ignored is beyond me since it is the primary issue surrounding the Milwaukee Bucks.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

GAD, you ignored a number of other moves:

I ignored nothing.

None of the moves you list happened between that 04/10/06 post that Simulack quoted and when you turned on Larry Harris. I purposely listed all of the transactions made between that post and when you turned on Harris, something I remember very clearly.

The Magloire to Portland trade which I thought would be a horrible trade and it was. That trade seriously weakened the team last season given how it removed the team's best rebounder and severely weakened the PG position given how bad Blake was.

The Mason signing.

The Bell signing.

The Voskuhl signing. He's been OK but I'm sorry, $3M for Jake Voskuhl is just plain dumb.

I didn't think the Mo signing was handled well but that one falls right on Kohl and his boys.

Have I missed any? I'm just going off memory here.

On the plus side, Harris traded Joe Smith for Ruben Patterson which proved to be a good move and one I endorsed at the time. I endorsed the Blake-Boykins trade and even though Blake played much better in Denver than he did with the Bucks, I think the Bucks got much more out of Boykins than they did Blake so that trade would receive a favorable grade in my opinion.

And lest you forget I was never a fan of the Gadz signing which obviously has hurt this team given the amount of money being paid to a third-string center and I didn't like the fact Pachulia was let go.

Once again, NONE of those transactions were made between the 04/10/06 post of Harris approval that Simulack quoted and when you turned on Harris.

Maybe you would have still turned on Harris due to those other moves you listed. I'm willing to stipulate to that as I am not overly suspicious of your motives like some people are. That's fine.

But the drastic change in your take on Harris correlates directly with the Ford/Villanueva trade, a trade that you and I didn't like one bit right away. I really have no problem with that being a turning point, but it seems like you either are unaware of that being the turning point or that you don't want to say so for whatever reason.


And I don't think I should have to say this, but I hope you don't take this too personally. You're one of my favorite posters here of course. I just think its time for a little clarity regarding your change of heart on Harris since you are getting on his case so much these days.

[GO BUCK5]

they won... when will we see the next victory?

No one wins. One side just loses more slowly.

[europa]

GAD, whether you want to admit it or not, my change with regard to Harris has to do with all of the moves I listed above in addition to the Ford-Villanueva trade. If you wish to ignore them to perpetuate a myth, feel free. But just because you and others wish it to be, doesn't make it the truth.

I was the one who provided the clarity about my position because I listed in totality the series of moves Harris has made that led to me changing my opinion of him. Did I start to question Harris when he made the Ford trade? Absolutely and at no point have I ever denied that. But when he followed it up with the lengthy series of bad moves that I listed above is when I lost all hope for him. So it's clear - or it should be clear to anyone who really wants the truth here - that it isn't about one move but about a series of moves that, in my opinion, have weakened this team and made it worse.

I don't think I should have to explain myself in such detail - especially to someone I assumed knew me and my position quite well. Apparently I was mistaken.

[WEFFPIM]

GAD, whether you want to admit it or not, my change with regard to Harris has to do with all of the moves I listed above in addition to the Ford-Villanueva trade. If you wish to ignore them to perpetuate a myth, feel free. But just because you and others wish it to be, doesn't make it the truth.

I was the one who provided the clarity about my position because I listed in totality the series of moves Harris has made that led to me changing my opinion of him. Did I start to question Harris when he made the Ford trade? Absolutely and at no point have I ever denied that. But when he followed it up with the lengthy series of bad moves that I listed above is when I lost all hope for him. So it's clear - or it should be clear to anyone who really wants the truth here - that it isn't about one move but about a series of moves that, in my opinion, have weakened this team and made it worse.

I don't think I should have to explain myself in such detail - especially to someone I assumed knew me and my position quite well. Apparently I was mistaken.

Yeesh, you two okay? I know break-ups can be hard