Post Game Bucks/Heat

[paulpressey25]

GAD...when I saw your list of moves, I too thought it incomplete since it stopped at the TJ trade.....

But I'll back you in giving Europa the business. Europa, you did flip the switch with the TJ trade....and that's ok...nothing wrong it.

It was a philosophy defining move by the organization as it relates to the on-court makeup of the roster. No problem with coming to conclusions after that one.

If you valued pure PG play, we never should have sent out TJ. If you valued not taking on more projects but going for a win-now, that trade also went against that philosopy....

It affirmed the team's belief that Bogut needed a scorer next to him given Bogut's limited scoring ability.

It affirmed Redd and Bogut were the alpha-dogs....

It also was a philosopy affirming move in that it re-enforced Kohl's aversion to big contracts and the brain trusts concern on TJ's injury status.

It was major statement deal even though less than 18-months later both players are now of questionable value to their current teams.....

[europa]

Press, I did flip the switch with the Ford trade. I'm not denying that. I thought that was an absolutely horrible trade. I didn't like it one bit. I think we all know that. But I also strongly disliked the Magloire trade. Why is that not being talked about? I didn't like signing Dez. How come that isn't being discussed. I've talked in detail about the suspect draft work Harris has done. Why is that being ignored?

Because some people just want to tie everything I say into Ford because that apparently makes it easy for them to define me. I've never quite figured that out given my strong criticisms of numerous other moves that have been made but it's par for the course around here. I'm surprised GAD responded the same way given how I've had enough conversations with him so he should know my issues with this team go far beyond the fact I thought the Ford trade was a terrible one.

So again, was that the time I started having questions about Harris? Absolutely and that's been clear for quite some time. But is that the only reason why I "turned on" Harris? Of course not and frankly it's rather silly to assume that would be the case. It's not like this team has gotten a helluva lot better the past season plus so obviously there must've been some other suspect personnel moves made in that time.

Correct?

[paulpressey25]

Press, I did flip the switch with the Ford trade.

You did flip the switch. The reason the Ford deal gets talked about the most is because it was the one that probably 90% of this board really liked and you vociferously were against. So it made for great debates.....you've always been TJ's guy and it's made the board interesting. Heck, you even picked up watching the Raptors after the trade.....nothing wrong with that.

Once that deal was made, Harris never got the benefit of the doubt from you on every other move. But that said all the other moves were far less exciting.....Ford for CV had a ton of drama, upside, downside attached with it from many angles.....the Desmond, Magloire, etc trades really didn't compare.....

The good news for you is that your base instinct on TJ for CV was correct and it's bore itself out in all these other Kohl-Harris moves. Kohl and the braintrust are only going to maybe win out in the end on the TJ deal because of his super conservatism, and I agreed with them at the time on that conservatism. But take that out of the equation and all the other issues that were problems with the Ford/CV trade have manifested themselves here in the later moves by Kohl-Harris (no defense, no vision, no philosophy, etc.)

[europa]

Once that deal was made, Harris never got the benefit of the doubt from you on every other move.

Incorrect. After that deal, Harris followed it up by making more suspect moves (if you'll recall I didn't care much for his draft that year either and absolutely hated the fact he traded a second-round pick for Markota) and the more bad moves he made the more I lost faith in him. Again, that's the truth whether you, GAD or anyone else wishes to believe it. It's easier to perpetuate a myth but unfortunately it isn't the truth.

[yuedar]

you guy are aware that during the game the announcers clearly stated that redd has been sick since xmas and thats why he didn't get any playing time at the end of the game... right?

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Press, I did flip the switch with the Ford trade. I'm not denying that. I thought that was an absolutely horrible trade. I didn't like it one bit. I think we all know that.

That's what I was getting at.
Now hopefully people can stop harassing you about it and you can stop implying that wasn't the case. I always found that to be a diversionary cycle that never amounted to anything.

But I also strongly disliked the Magloire trade. Why is that not being talked about? I didn't like signing Dez. How come that isn't being discussed. I've talked in detail about the suspect draft work Harris has done. Why is that being ignored?

Because some people just want to tie everything I say into Ford because that apparently makes it easy for them to define me. I've never quite figured that out given my strong criticisms of numerous other moves that have been made but it's par for the course around here. I'm surprised GAD responded the same way given how I've had enough conversations with him so he should know my issues with this team go far beyond the fact I thought the Ford trade was a terrible one.

I don't really think I responded the same way, I was just attempting to break a cycle that seems to go on here.
I am familiar with your issues with this team, yes.
And like I said, unlike others, I give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your intentions, etc.

[trwi7]

you guy are aware that during the game the announcers clearly stated that redd has been sick since xmas and thats why he didn't get any playing time at the end of the game... right?

And I had sex with something other than my hand last night. Damn I need to get laid, soon. Anyways, I'm lying and so are they, if he was so sick then he wouldn't have played and the fact that he was terrible forcing shots on offense last night and not stopping Wade on defense pretty much tells me he was benched.

[europa]

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That's what I was getting at.

I never thought that was in dispute. I assumed everyone here knew I wasn't a fan of that trade and that I thought Harris made a rather huge mistake. I've never denied that.

[yuedar]

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And I had sex with something other than my hand last night. Damn I need to get laid, soon. Anyways, I'm lying and so are they, if he was so sick then he wouldn't have played and the fact that he was terrible forcing shots on offense last night and not stopping Wade on defense pretty much tells me he was benched.

someone has trust issues...
oh and relationship issues...

[jerrod]

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someone has trust issues...
oh and relationship issues...

i think that's the just the tip of the iceberg of twirl's issues

[trwi7]

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i think that's the just the tip of the iceberg of twirl's issues

The start of your problems begins with the fact that you're a Ravens fan.

[jerrod]

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The start of your problems begins with the fact that you're a Ravens fan.

i'd like to disagree



i really would

[fam3381]

But I also strongly disliked the Magloire trade. Why is that not being talked about? I didn't like signing Dez. How come that isn't being discussed. I've talked in detail about the suspect draft work Harris has done. Why is that being ignored?

1) Everyone involved with the Mags trades ended up being poor, so I think that's why we never talk about it. We traded Mason (who was awful in the next two years) for Magloire, who was disappointing in his one year with us but did help us get to the playoffs. Then we traded Mags for Blake/Skinner, who were both mediocre at best, and Mags was a complete non-factor in Portland and has done nothing in New Jersey either. Then we traded Blake for Boykins, who was of no use. Blake at least has gotten his game back in Denver/Por. Not surprisingly, the 1st rounder we shipped to NOKC also turned out to be worthless, but that was the Hornets' fault. Bascially it was all garbage in, garbage out. The one thing that could have been valuable was the first rounder (16th overall IIRC), but it's easy for most to overlook that since Cedric Simmons has done nothing. Anyway, the market for Magloire clearly dried up pretty quickly, so I'm not sure there's a cut and dried explanation of why one or more of the Mags-related moves were bad ones.

2) I don't know. Desmond's obviously not great. We could still use him right now. He's overpaid, but not ridiculously so and only for two years. I'd prefer Morris Peterson, but there wasn't a magic bullet to be had instead of him IMO.

3) Yi has given Harris' draft decision-making a new lease on life around here. That might not be fair, because he hasn't always made good decisions for sure. But I would guess the Bucks' ballsiness in drafting Yi will end up being far more significant than not picking Ryan Gomes over Ersan or giving up a second last year for Markota.

[europa]

fam, the point is I've been critical of a growing number of moves Harris has made. It's fine if people want to debate my criticisms. I have no problem with that. But attempting to isolate my issues with Harris on one move and one move only is foolish given how it in no way represents my point of view or the position I've taken.

[paulpressey25]

I thought the Dez/Voskuhl moves were great in that they didn't tie up the cap like a big offer to a guy like Darko would have......

Desmond as a 15-25mpg player is a great guy to have and contributes....he was not intended to be the starting SF....that was going to be for Bobby. But Bobby bombing out has forced Dez to play 25-40mpg at times....he's not that type of player.

The thing we don't know is who realistically would sign HERE. Larry H. for all we know may have tossed out offers to Mo Pete and Matt Barnes and been turned down by both.

[fam3381]

fam, the point is I've been critical of a growing number of moves Harris has made. It's fine if people want to debate my criticisms. I have no problem with that. But attempting to isolate my issues with Harris on one move and one move only is foolish given how it in no way represents my point of view or the position I've taken.

Fair enough.

[Neapolitan Buck]

I don't understand. If mo doesn't defend, a lot of you say:"Mo doesn't defend at all"; if he defends, some of you say: "Yes, but he defended on Chris Quinn". If we win, you say: "yes, but we won against a bas team and we didn't have destroyed them. I can't undestand what are you looking for...If Duncan blocks Voskuhl, noone say: "yes, but it's vs. Voskuhl", everybody say:"Duncan is a great defender" because he is, and because he does that against Voskuhl and against Howard. Mo is not a good defender, but 1) if he wants, he can defend. 2)If he defends on anyone, he deserves respect. He's playing with the heart, he's playing like a shooting-first PG, as you say, but as a PG, and not as a SG. He is improving and he is young. Be a fan means also support, not only criticize, despite it is a right of everyone.