That doesn't have to be Redd though

[Sigra]

As many others I realized that our main problems (talent wise) are backcourt of Mo and Redd (their defense and inteligence) and compactibility/chemistry between Bogut and Redd. Both problems can be solved by trading Redd but it doesn't have to be like that.

I am turning against Bogut these days. Slowly I do. I really don't like his attitude anymore. I don't like his dependence of Sinisa Markovic. I don't like his energy level that is sometimes good but never in long period of time. I almost gave up from his one on one offense and I think that he just doesn't have mental strength and mental quality to be that kind of players. Basicly I see his only value, long term, in his defense and his "offense from movement" or offense in pick and roll game. But even these qualities have question marks as he is terrible defender of pick game (and it looks like he just have some mental problems in that regard) and is not always willing to play pick offense at the other side.

I was watching Sixers game the other night and I saw that Dalembert is actually all that I have hope left for Bogut. He play defense and play offense without ball. Plus he doesn't complain about that and doesn't ask to be something else.

And I was again impressed with PG Miller. I don't care how much times he has been traded. Many great players were traded and some of them few times as well. Miller would be perfect PG for our team. I am sorry but Mo is just not natural PG. Nothing to do with stats really. He just isn't. He doesn't have any concept to recognize what defense give and always does what he thought to do before. He is not inteligent play maker really. Team is not team with him at helm. Mo is perfect 6th man and it is crime that we don't use him in that role.

So my new ideal scenario would be to trade Bogut and bad contracts for Miller and Dalembert. This trade work on trade chacker:

Bogut, 1st round pick, Simmons and Gadz for Miller and Dalembert.

We would get rid of bad contracts, brake Mo/Redd backcourt, replace Bogut with what he can become. But would Sixers do that? They want to trade Miller and make room for Lou Williams and they could think that Bogut has more upside than Dalambert. They also recive bad contracts but we give them 1st round pick for that. If they still don't want to do that then give them CV as well.

Miller, Redd, Mason, Yi, Dalembert (with Mo as 6th man) would have good chemistry, organisation of roles, defense and would be real team.

Thoughts?

[Bballer2306]

You want to trade Bogut........

Bogut is the only player who is consistent on this team and has significantly improved his defensive game from last year........

I do not understand some of the posters here, you are always complaining no matter how good somebody plays. You are just never happy. I really think some of you here must be racist towards Bogut, I just dont see any other reason to persue this obsession with him when he is playing great basketball.

FACT: Bogut is playing well this year, and has been the most consistent on the team and is IMPROVING.

Just wait for it, soon some of you will be complaining about Yi and wanting to trade him soon, because thats how it always is on this board. We are always picking on somebody no matter how well they play.

I say no to the trade, I have never liked Dalembert. He is very inconsistent although this year he seemed to string a few good games together. Miller is getting to old as well, so I think the trade is a bad idea.

[th87]

I agree - Bogut hasn't delivered. And it's getting annoying to watch his gears turn offensively. And it's really, really strange to have Bogut's good games coincide only with Markovic's presence.

However, in a battle between Redd and Bogut, Redd has to go. Redd is by far the better player, but he's topped out, I think. He's not going to get make us a champion, his prohibitively large contract will prevent us from getting us a champion-caliber player, and his alpha-dog mentality will prevent the development of any champion-caliber draft pick.

Bogut can still someday, possibly live up to his potential. We've seen that he has the physical ability to do it. All he needs is to figure out how to tap into his mind and prevent his mental blocks. Will it happen? Who knows. But the potential is there.

As I'd advocated in my thread, we should just reload. If Bogut eventually doesn't live up to his potential, it'd be time to ship him out, lose some games, and try to reload with another high lottery pick who has superstar potential. Repeat until we find one.

How did the Cavs become contenders? Lottery luck. Spurs? Lottery luck. Magic? Same thing. Therefore, the smartest move would be to position ourselves so that we have that degree of luck. We've been mediocre for too long. It's time to be bad.

I'm sorry if I drifted off your topic.

[Dags]

Bogut, 1st round pick, Simmons and Gadz for Miller and Dalembert.

...

Miller, Redd, Mason, Yi, Dalembert (with Mo as 6th man) would have good chemistry, organisation of roles, defense and would be real team.

Thoughts?

Trade Bogut if you like, but in the end you'll need to bring in a player significantly better than Redd to assume the lead on the team. You haven't done that with this trade.

Nor have you addressed defense - you take out the one player that's given a damn about defense and replaced him with another. But the 1-3 are still worthless. The 4 is still meh, especially once Yi goes to the bench. So you haven't improved the defense.

The only thing you've done is bring in a pure PG. Great, but that won't make this team be any less imbalanced than it already was. Plus isn't Miller an FA after this season? Do the Bucks want to pour even more cash into their backcourt?

Anyway, I don't know if the Sixers would do the deal, they take on some really bad contracts, really really bad. And all they gain is a player that's putting up similar numbers as their current C who, while he's currently cheaper, will be looking for a contract extension that will add cost to the team.

Trade Bogut if you like, but you might want to address the problems the team faces, rather than just prolong the status quo like this trade would do.

[bigricho12]

Ahhh that time of the year when Sigra gets all Hyde on us and jumps bandwagons... You know this shouldnt go untreated Sigra, maybe some time on the psych couch will help.

[YiOF]

I just can't agree with anything about keeping Redd. Just because Bucks looked terribly off sync in one game without Redd, doesn't mean he's not the problem anymore. He's the type of player that has to dominate the ball to get his numbers. But most importantly, he does nothing to make other players on the team better. You can't find a single guard in this league who has less assist/min than Redd. I was shocked to find that that one game that Redd only had 10ish double double in his career. It doesn't matter how open other people are, if Redd drives, he's shooting it. I just don't know how you can enjoy playing with him and put your best effort day in a day out when you hard to getting the reward for the effort you put in.

[Sigra]

Ahhh that time of the year when Sigra gets all Hyde on us and jumps bandwagons... You know this shouldnt go untreated Sigra, maybe some time on the psych couch will help.

I don't jump bandwagons. I am on the Bucks bandwagon and that is the only bandwagon that I have ever been on. I am not fan of any player. I am fan of Bucks only. Get it?

Honestly, Redd can score and in NBA it is all about scoring points. Defense is not that important anymore. My friend Vince from JSOnline forum helped me to realize that. Rules are adjusted to make defense not nearly important as offense. Redd can score. Bogut can't.

Bogut can't/doesn't want to hit jumpers which hurt our spacing. He is "ball stoper" as he keep ball in his hands too much which hurt our ball movement and reduce our time on shot clock. Bogut is problem for our offense and I have no doubt about that anymore. His defense is important but in this trade I replace him with good defender too. Bogut also create all kind of chemistry problems with his attitude (I am saint and I know all) when he is really not that good. He is not that unselfish really because if he is unselfish he would just shut up and play whatever role is best for his team.

Redd is our best player. We can trade him and start rebuliding and I will be happy with that. But if old Kohl wants to win now than the solution is not to trade Redd but Bogut.

[Chapter29]

Bogut just like any player is tradable on this team. For the right player(s).

I actually don't care much for either Miller or Dalembert. So I won't be willing to give up Bogut for 2 guys I don't like.

Bogut is what Bogut is. A C+/B type player who also happens to be a legitimate C in this league where there are few.

I would much prefer to hang on to Bogut and see how it all pans out. Yi too.

[msiris]

Sigra is not jumping the bandwagon. He has been the biggest Bogut fan here, but understands now that Bogut is nothing more than a average center. These days its very rare to find a center who dominates. But Bogut is a good rebounder and a better defender. He is still cheap. People say that its easy to find a good wing player, but that is not true.

[paul]

Sigra is not jumping the bandwagon. He has been the biggest Bogut fan here, but understands now that Bogut is nothing more than a average center. These days its very rare to find a center who dominates. But Bogut is a good rebounder and a better defender. He is still cheap. People say that its easy to find a good wing player, but that is not true.

Isn't that the very definition of jumping off the bandwagon? It's been well established that sigra changes his mind a lot, one minute he wants bogut traded, the next not, then redd, then mo etc. But i'm getting used to that so that's ok.

No way i do this deal.

[Bballer2306]

I really really am astounded by what some of you say.

How is 12 points 9 rebounds 2 assists 2 blocks an AVERAGE CENTER???? WHAT!?

Andrew Bogut averages the same as Andrew Bynum (1 rebound difference to Bynum)

Now you guys are just making up lies about Bogut!!!! I have no other explination right now other than you guys are a little racist. But I really do not want to think that, so why do you all have such an obsession with Bogut?

Sigra now you yourself are just making crap up about Bogut. You say Bogut slows the offense down and holds the ball for to long. HE NEVER EVEN GETS THE BALL!!!! This is a guard oriented team and the bigs rarely get the ball.

If you are going to attempt to slag off Bogut, atleast use proper facts instead of just useless lies....

[paul]

I really really am astounded by what some of you say.

How is 12 points 9 rebounds 2 assists 2 blocks an AVERAGE CENTER???? WHAT!?

Andrew Bogut averages the same as Andrew Bynum (1 rebound difference to Bynum)

Now you guys are just making up lies about Bogut!!!! I have no other explination right now other than you guys are a little racist. But I really do not want to think that, so why do you all have such an obsession with Bogut?

Sigra now you yourself are just making crap up about Bogut. You say Bogut slows the offense down and holds the ball for to long. HE NEVER EVEN GETS THE BALL!!!! This is a guard oriented team and the bigs rarely get the ball.

If you are going to attempt to slag off Bogut, atleast use proper facts instead of just useless lies....

Bballer there's no point getting annoyed with this, every single time someone wants somebody traded on this board the exaggeration that goes on is beyond belief. Check the Bogut for Deng trade thread if you want an example. People decide they want something then exaggerate the hell out of it to get their point of view accross. You've got to take it with a grain of salt or your gonna stay real annoyed for a long time.

[Simulack]

How is 12 points 9 rebounds 2 assists 2 blocks an AVERAGE CENTER???? WHAT!?

Andrew Bogut averages the same as Andrew Bynum (1 rebound difference to Bynum)

Your the poster blatantly lying.

The differences in 4.5 less minutes for Bynum are: + .7 points, 62.4% vs 49.7% from the field, + 1.2 rpg, +.25 bpg and - .5 apg.

Pretty obvious to anyone who other than blinded Bucks fans (who sure aren't going to let things like "stats" stand in the way!) who the better player is. The sad thing is that you apparently looked up his stats (since you mention the rebound difference) and still were unable to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Bogut's basically average - about the 13th/14th best center in the NBA. I don't think even the card carrying members of the Bogut fan club think otherwise currently.

While Dalembert is currently a slightly better center than Bogut, I still wouldn't do this trade especially with a first round pick involved. Bogut/Dalembert is pretty even so we are giving up what currently looks to be a 7thish type lottery pick to dump Simmons and Gadz. I'd rather draft Greene, Griffin etc there and hope we get a hit with the pick.

[paulpressey25]

Do we lotto protect the pick? (top ten)?

If we can top ten protect it, I'm all over this deal.

We get a center who does something elite (blocks shots) and who can rebound at a higher rate while still scoring as much as Bogut.

We get a PG who understands how to play PG. Yet we still keep Mo for sixth-man.

We dump our two worst contracts.

Sign me up.

I see no way Philadelphia does this.

[europa]

And you accused me of needing practice with trade proposals, Ilhan? I think you need to look in the mirror first.

The Sixers aren't going to take back two terrible contracts and it's foolish for the Bucks to part with a lottery pick for a PG (Miller) who only represents a mild upgrade and a C (Dalembert) who may or may not be better than you have but one whose contract absolutely isn't what this team needs.

I'm fine with trading Bogut in the right deal and I agree that as the season goes more and more of the luster is starting to wear off. I'm starting to think if epi may have had the right idea all along when he talked about how the Bucks moved Benson for Lanier - one of the most significant moves in this team's history. Perhaps Luke Pliska's idea of moving Bogut for Gasol is something the Bucks need to consider. I don't think the Bucks trade Bogut as long as Harris is the GM - I don't believe he'll want to admit this soon that he may have screwed up the No. 1 overall pick. But if Harris gets bounced, perhaps the new GM will be more inclined to deal him and if so, Gasol would appear to be a good target.

[paulpressey25]

If Philly wouldn't do the deal Europa, you wouldn't either?

I'd rather go after Gasol as well......but if this were ever possible and the lotto pick was protected, I think we'd be a better team. And Dalembert's contract isn't great, but we might be headed there with Bogut pretty soon.....

[Simulack]

PP, I think it also depends on what we think Bogut will resign for. Dalembert's contract currently is:

2007/2008: $9,680,000
2008/2009: $10,520,000
2009/2010: $11,360,000
2010/2011: $12,200,000

Do we want to be paying Dalembert 12 million when he is 30 years old when he seems to rely pretty heavily on athleticism? Don't 76ers fans want to get rid of this guys contract?

I agree that he is currently a bit better than Bogut. But the difference isn't that great and even someone pessimistic about Bogut like me hopes that Bogut will eventually be the better player. If its around the same price range (which is still too much for Bogut IMO), I'd rather have Drew.

24 million next year for Mo/Redd seems bad enough. Its 34 for our back court when you add Miller in. Is he that much of an upgrade over Mo to risk stunting his development over?

Getting rid of the contracts is obviously great but doesn't it even give us cap room to use?

I agree that Philly probably doesn't do it either. But IMO its not very appearling for either team.

[europa]

If Philly wouldn't do the deal Europa, you wouldn't either?

Nope. Dalembert is grossly overpaid in my opinion. I'm not convinced he's better than Bogut and even if he is, it's only by the slightest of margins and that's not enough to justify bringing in another bad contract. I agree Miller would be an upgrade over Mo but it's not a great enough at this point in his career to justify parting with a potential lottery pick.

I think it's a pretty bad trade for the Bucks. And I see no reason why the Sixers would even consider it given how they're being forced to add two terrible contracts. Maybe you could part with one by using the lotto pick as incentive but I don't see how you can get any team to take on two - unless the trade would involve Redd, and even then I'm not sure you can make that fly very far.

[paul]

Agreed Europa. Whilst we are all a bit down on Bogut at the moment, he's still an above average center who could still have quite a lot of upside. Given i rate the importance of a good center very highly the only way i trade a solid one who's just turned 23 is if it's a major upgrade at that position, and if that guy is also young. As best as i can see there aren't many C's around his age who are a major upgrade at that position so the options are very thin, i mean we take D Howard, Amare etc, but there's no way we get them. Am i doing it for Dalambert? No way. Am i also giving up a likely top 6-7 lottery pick in the deal? No way in a hot and fiery hell.
Even those of us really down on Bogut would still surely think he's likely to be a better player than Dalambert in the long run, if he's not now.

This deal sucks.

[paulpressey25]

Fair enough guys, but I want some of the spotlight here to continue to be focused on Bogut......I do think for this current team at this moment, Dalembert would be a better center and Miller a better PG. But I agree both guys are older and highly compensated.