Redd Is Becoming The New Ray Allen For Me

[europa]

There was a time I was the biggest Ray Allen fan around. I thought he was a fine player and I was thrilled he was playing for the Bucks. The run to the Eastern Conference Finals was memorable and it was great to see Ray play so well. I was a huge fan.

But not long after my opinion about him began to change. He was still a fine player but it became clear he wasn't the right leader this team needed and it was clear this team was never going to go anywhere meaningful with him as its best player. So I welcomed the decision to trade him and to this day I have no regrets about it.

Flash forward a few seasons to Michael Redd. I'm obviously a big Redd fan. He's one of the top SGs in the league and he's the only player on this team who's proven to be close to All-Star caliber on a consistent basis. By no means is he primarily responsible for the bad season this team is having and the bottom line is this team would be a helluva lot better if just once they had even one player as good as he is - something that has never been the case since he became a starter.

That said, Redd is starting to morph into Ray Allen for me. I realize it's an over-reaction to allow one quarter against a vastly superior team to lead me to draw such a conclusion. But last night, watching Redd and Mo tear down the team's chances to spring an upset while Bogut was asserting himself again as the team's best player had me cringing. This is what I saw from Ray - a very good player but maybe not the right type of player for this team if it's going to ultimately contend.

I'm not advocating a Redd trade. I don't think it's in the team's best interests to dump him for expirings and picks and crap like that. Frankly, after the last two games I'd rather see the team get rid of Mo and begin the search for a true standout PG. But I've said many times before that if the system changed and Redd didn't get on board then I'd be fine with dealing him. I saw some signs of that last night and it troubled me.

My hope would remains for the Bucks to make this Bogut's team and for him to respond accordingly with Redd in the "Reggie Miller" role I've envisioned for him for years. I think that would ultimately give the Bucks best chance to become a contender. But if the former occurs and the latter cannot then I think it will be time to move Redd, just as it became time to move Ray a few seasons ago.

[showtimesam]

I would love if redd could take on that reggie miller mentality, but for some reason I don't know if he can do that with the bucks since he's been the top dog for so long.

I don't really mind which one goes, but its clear that the backcourt should be broken up.

My only requirement is that any team that wants mo or redd needs to take on bobby simmons as well.

[EastSideBucksFan]

I don't think you should put the blame all on Redd for our 4th quarter last night.

Jerry Sloan is 100x smarter than LK and he adjusted his game plan accordingly to shut down Bogut and make Redd/Mo beat us.

[europa]

I don't think you should put the blame all on Redd for our 4th quarter last night.

I'm not. I think the combination of Mo and Redd was the big problem. And I should point out that in the first half Redd did a terrific job of working within the flow of the offense. That was great to see. But it all went to hell in the fourth quarter. Yes the Jazz are a much better team, but the signs I saw with how Redd and Mo reacted troubled me. I didn't like to see those signs and if they continue I'll be more accommodating toward a Redd trade than I have been previously (though again my preference remains to trade Mo first).

[Nebula1]

Redd belongs on a more veteran team. He can play so well when not depended on the carry a load every game.

I, however, would trade Redd for expiring deals and lotto picks to build behind Bogut and Yi. I would love to deal Mo as well and let Ramon get a shot at driving this car.

I always wanted Redd to retire a Buck, but I don't think the Bucks can build around him at this point. The gap between Mo/Redd and Yi/Bogut is too far.

[Jollay]

My question is: does a top-flite shooting guard always have to deal with this question to some extent?

After all he is a "shooting guard." Thats his main function...to be somewhat selfish in a way...

I will say that I prefer either option to Todd Day. Well, Todd Day on the Bucks--fat/old Todd Day on the preseason Pistons roster a few years ago was pretty awesome.

[EastSideBucksFan]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm not. I think the combination of Mo and Redd was the big problem. And I should point out that in the first half Redd did a terrific job of working within the flow of the offense. That was great to see. But it all went to hell in the fourth quarter. Yes the Jazz are a much better team, but the signs I saw with how Redd and Mo reacted troubled me. I didn't like to see those signs and if they continue I'll be more accommodating toward a Redd trade than I have been previously (though again my preference remains to trade Mo first).

We are in the extremely early stages of seeing the offense shift on this team.

I was encouraged to see what happened in the first three quarters.

Perhaps if Redd had been playing consistently lately and not hurt, he would've been able to make some of those shots that he missed last night.

I'd like to see Redd go back to being a spot up shooter. Sure we can still give it to him in iso's at times, but he better be looking to drive in the fourth quarters instead of taking fadeaway jumpers. I'm willing to bet LK played him game tape from the 4th quarter last night.

Personally I don't want to see Mo/Mike broken up right now. Give them at least until the end of the year, then reassess in the offseason.

Mo would be easier to move but Redd is more coveted. Perhaps in the offseason we can pull a rabbit out of our hat like AI2 or Josh Smith with Redd being moved in a multiteam deal.

I really want a young, athletic, defensive wing in the worst way possible if we move Redd.

[xTitan]

My question is: does a top-flite shooting guard always have to deal with this question to some extent?

After all he is a "shooting guard." Thats his main function...to be somewhat selfish in a way...

I will say that I prefer either option to Todd Day. Well, Todd Day on the Bucks--fat/old Todd Day on the preseason Pistons roster a few years ago was pretty awesome.

It depends what the shooting guard brings to the table...SG's like Roy, McGrady, Wade, Bryant.....all have the ability to run there teams half court offenses and elevate the teams overall play. You then also have traditional SG's who have a great outside stroke, have plays run for them and bring other value to the team such as defense, leadership etc.. Then you have the volume shooters, who think they have to do it all.

[Rockmaninoff]

My only requirement is that any team that wants mo or redd needs to take on bobby simmons as well.

I'd rather they trade Redd alone, and then look for a deal that uses Villanuevas value to move Gadzurics contract.

Hopefully we could get a pick out one of those trades.

Then run:

Bell/Ivey
Williams/Wright
Simmons/Kirilenko
Yi/Kirilenko
Bogut/Voskuhl or Ruffin (matchups)

[casey123]

Reggie Miller was a crunch time clutch player with a "stick a dagger in you" mentality. Redd is as talented but not nearly as savvy and intelleigent and tough.

[ReasonablySober]

You also have to ask yourself if you want to pay a spot up shooter 15-18 million a year.

[europa]

You also have to ask yourself if you want to pay a spot up shooter 15-18 million a year.

Fortunately, Redd is much more than a spot-up shooter.

My question is: does a top-flite shooting guard always have to deal with this question to some extent?

After all he is a "shooting guard." Thats his main function...to be somewhat selfish in a way...

Very true and as the Pacers showed with Miller you can build a contender with a SG as your best player. But I've always wanted to see Redd be more of a 1B offensive option and not see him used as a Kobe, LeBron or Wade. He doesn't have that level of skill and so I've always believed it's been forcing a square peg in a round hole. Now much of that was because nobody else on the team was anywhere close to Redd in terms of scoring ability. And while that's still true, we're starting to see signs from Bogut that maybe - heavy emphasis on the word "maybe" - he's ready to take on the primary role in this offense or at the very least a far more significant one than he's ever had.

If he does that and Redd responds the way I hope then this team will be much better. But I just had a Ray Allen vibe in the latter part of the game last night while watching Redd and it was the Ray Allen vibe I had when I realized the team couldn't go any further with him and it was time to trade him. I'm not at that point with Redd. I want to be clear about that. But this was the first time I started to wonder if maybe I was going to get there in the near future.

[Newz]

I thought Redd played alright last night. Even though people are accusing him of 'chucking' he still only took 10 shots. In the first half he really played within the offense and in the second half he took a few bad shots.

A lot of the play calls in the second half seemed to be drawn up for Bogut. Bogut couldn't get position on his man or an early double would come that would deny him the ball and thus the other guys had to shoot.

IMO I would have made an adjustment when they paid more attention to Bogut and brought him out to use on some pick n' rolls. Hard to drive to the basket when guys are just sagging back on him. But I also agree when that happens that Mo and Redd need to get to the basket rather than toss up a poor three point shot.

[jerrod]

Fortunately, Redd is much more than a spot-up shooter.

but having redd play a reggie miller like role in the offense is going to amount to primarily spot up shooting. take the ball out of his hands and the number of drives is going to go way down

[jeremyd236]

On this board, I'm willing to say that Ray Allen is mostly regarded on here as the "better" player when comparing him to Michael Redd. Most of us still can't let go of the memories of the Eastern Conference Finals team and just how great Ray was here.

But let us not forget the talent Ray had around him. He had the "Big 3" (which I'd hope anyone here would take over our current "Big 3"), who were great teammates in terms of talent. Even now with his success in Boston, he has great teammates.

When he was all alone in Seattle, he did nothing. One could argue that his success, or lack there of, was worse than Redd's current success in Milwaukee.

So if Allen, who is a better player, can't win without 2 other stars on his team, why does anyone on this board expect Redd to? Redd's not best as the 1 option on a team and we all know it. Rather than shipping him out for another star who will just be alone on this team, why not try to package some of our other players for somebody whose talent is comparable to Redd's? I'm not talking about a guy who can show it once a week like Bogut or Mo, but somebody who can bring it consistently, nearly every game, just like Redd.

[europa]

Jeremy, I'm in 100% agreement with everything you wrote. I've written the same things many times. I don't want people to think this thread is my suddenly deciding Redd sucks and he has to go. I don't believe either to be true. I just had some bad vibes last night that reminded me of when my thoughts about Ray and his place on this team began to change.

It's my hope that Redd can do the things I believe he can and help this team become a contender. That's what I want to see happen. And I'm not advocating a Redd trade. But given what we're starting to see with Bogut, I'm no longer as resistant to a Redd trade as I was before.

The two keys for me are:

1. Can Bogut continue his excellent play of late?

2. Can Redd do what he did in the first half last night - integrate himself fully into a Bogut-centric offense or will he revert to what we saw in the fourth quarter when he and Mo shot the Bucks out of the game?

These questions have yet to be answered and I don't want to see the Bucks make a foolish decision about Redd until they are.

[paulpressey25]

Europa....would you accept Redd and Gadz to Chicago for Noc, Thabo and Ben Wallace?

Then call up Sessions. Play the season out. Draft the BPA at the 1 2 or 3 spot this summer.

That move to me makes our team tougher and more rounded.

[europa]

Europa....would you accept Redd and Gadz to Chicago for Noc, Thabo and Ben Wallace?

Then call up Sessions. Play the season out. Draft the BPA at the 1 2 or 3 spot this summer.

That move to me makes our team tougher and more rounded.

Nope. Don't want Wallace's contract and given how Bogut is starting to look I don't see the need for another center. Any Redd to Chicago trade starts with Hinrich for me. He's the only guy the Bulls have who I really would want. I like Nocioni but I don't see him as a major difference maker. I think a player like that would be easier to find than someone like Hinrich (prior to this season).

[ReasonablySober]

On this board, I'm willing to say that Ray Allen is mostly regarded on here as the "better" player when comparing him to Michael Redd. Most of us still can't let go of the memories of the Eastern Conference Finals team and just how great Ray was here.

But let us not forget the talent Ray had around him. He had the "Big 3" (which I'd hope anyone here would take over our current "Big 3"), who were great teammates in terms of talent. Even now with his success in Boston, he has great teammates.

When he was all alone in Seattle, he did nothing. One could argue that his success, or lack there of, was worse than Redd's current success in Milwaukee.

So if Allen, who is a better player, can't win without 2 other stars on his team, why does anyone on this board expect Redd to? Redd's not best as the 1 option on a team and we all know it. Rather than shipping him out for another star who will just be alone on this team, why not try to package some of our other players for somebody whose talent is comparable to Redd's? I'm not talking about a guy who can show it once a week like Bogut or Mo, but somebody who can bring it consistently, nearly every game, just like Redd.

One could argue that, but one would be an idiot.

[InsideOut]

Redd is the anti Reggie Miller.

Reggie was clutch while Redd is anti clutch.

Reggie was a high energy fired up leader while Redd is the anti high energy fired up leader.

When I think of Reggie I think of a competitive SOB that would win at all costs...even if it meant coming to blows with MJ. Those two had some all out wars. Redd...well he's a really nice guy.

As the main man Redd's never been a winner or a leader. He shows up every other game and as often as he wins us a game he'll kill us in the 4th and cost us a game. Many feel, and I agree, he is hurting the development of our young guys. Now factor in the fact he makes over $90,000,000.00. I've said it from day one. For the Bucks to win Redd needs to be a second or third best player. But then that means in two years (if ever) we're paying him $90 million to hang out at the 3-point line and hit open jumpers when Yi or Bogut gets doubled. Now if Bogut and Yi end up better than Redd (which we need to be winners) then how are we going to pay them when Redd is then making 17 and 18 million a season?

I can't see any upside in keeping Redd. If he is hurting our player development and he remains our best player, we'll continue stinking. Now if the young guys do bust out were stuck paying a max deal to a guy who's our 2nd or 3rd option who still can't defend and who's only job is to hit an open 3. At that point he'd be exactly what we need at $10 million a season. Kind of like a Kevin Martin who in 28 minutes last night was 14-16 / 9-11 for 39 points.