How to: Build a contender in a small market

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #1 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:11 am

Perhaps this doesnt need its own thread but as a daily reader and occasional poster I feel as if I would like to add some thoughts. This thread is more about....

Do we really have a fricken plan? Or is this really a fantasy team? How do you build a contender in a small market?

We need to not trade for Zach Randolph. We're not Miami or NY.
We need to trade Redd. We are going nowhere with him. And he can be a valuable piece to a team in "win now" mode. We need flexibility, youth, and/or picks in return. And he, bless his heart, could get a little of that for us.
We need to highlight Mo after we trade Redd and then either keep him if he starts showing toptier leadership and skill, or deal him for more youth, picks, and pieces as well. This of course would be contingent on a 1-3 year tryout in the absence of Redd.
We need to dump players like Bell, Gads, Simmons, Dez.... and instead focus on rentals like Ivey and Voskul... Ruffin or whoever to fill the gaps as our youth take shape.
We need to highlight Yi, CV, and Bogut... both to improve their trade value or improve their games for us to keep.
we need to hire a real coach who can develop talent and help make this team fun in the lockerroom.
We need to hire a GM, and be willing to support a plan where were allowed to lose a little if need be.
We need to be willing to take on bad contracts and eat the salary... but dump the player. Make him go home. But do it if it nets us a young guy with a little upside or a pick that could pan out.

AND... we need to be willing do draft a bunch of SCRUBS, and be frustrated, until we develop the 3-4 guys who can actually get it done. We'll need probably 15-20 guys over the next 2-5 years for this to happen. Alot of them will suck.

In other words...

We keep stirring the pot and stinking until it just......."happens".. And when it does, it will happen quickly, and we will be good and young all at once. And we will have options. We wont spend years "wondering" if a guy is a monster or a mouse. Or if the team can win or not. This team has no business adding pieces until a team with 3-4 guys on rookie contracts in the starting lineup can get us in the 8 seed.

or

We happen to get a superstar.

The Trailblazers did it right. The Bulls for a while did it right. Being in a larger market screwed them up.... they reached with Wallace. And dumped Chandler because they gave up on the formula. The Hornets did it right. The Spurs did it right. The Cavs did it right. The Pacers are doing it right. The Hawks are doing it right.... but cant draft.

We need to blow this thing up again and do it right. Im sick of mediocrity. And trading for Zach Randolph is plum crazy. He'll make us better despite what some of you think.... but he wont improve us enough.

And we'll be right back here this time next year.

xTitan · Post #2 » by **xTitan** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:13 am

Great post, my perfect example was the Blazers, they traded Randolph and found a young leader in ROY who is unselfish and makes that team go.....the Bucks need to unload Redd and do the same, its not really difficult.

Baddy Chuck · Post #3 » by **Baddy Chuck** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:22 am

xTitan wrote:Great post, my perfect example was the Blazers, they traded Randolph and found a young leader in ROY who is unselfish and makes that team go.....the Bucks need to unload Redd and do the same, its not really difficult.

Trading Redd for a player as damn good as Roy or even Aldridge is probably not going to happen.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #4 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:24 am

We need to follow the Blazers to a tee. It might not be as simple as theyve made it.... but if we allow time to take its course it would be inevitable.

Even in 2001... Allen, Robinson, Baker(turned into Cassell). Time took its course. We would have been title contenders for years if wed had a Bogut on that team.

The Spurs have it down to a science. They NEVER reach. They keep drafting and signing YOUNG guys. Or they go for the Finleys, Barrys.... on the cheap.

Its a plan that works..... once you get a "real" core in place.

Simulack · Post #5 » by **Simulack** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:30 am

All that Portland really did right is have an exceptional draft in 2006. If they end up with Thomas/Foye instead of Aldridge/Roy, they don't look nearly as smart and suddenly there is no correlation between them getting better and them trading Randolph.

Same is true of most of the other teams you mention. All teams like the Hornets, Spurs and the Cavs did right was land a superstar in the draft.

So all you really seem to be saying is draft well, don't take on bad contracts and get a good coach. Of course no one is going to disagree with that. Its just that

"This team has no business adding pieces until a team with 3-4 guys on rookie contracts in the starting lineup can get us in the 8 seed.

or

We happen to get a superstar.

it isn't easy to do either of those things or there wouldn't be perennial lottery teams.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #6 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:37 am

Simulack...

Youre right. But in a small market what other choice do you have. You CANT sign the superstar.

You have to DRAFT one. You say it cant be done, but then, well

what about
The Spurs, the Cavs, the Nuggets, the Hornets, the Raptors, the Jazz, the Rockets, the Suns....etc, etc. Eventually wed get a Duncan, Lebron, Carmelo, Paul, Bosh, Deron Williams, Yao, Amare, whoever..

then we can start building. We got Kareem once upon a time. We wait for it again.

The vast amount of superstars in the league were DRAFTED by the team that holds their rights now. Whether you want to wait it out or not.... we have no choice, we MUST. Eventually it would happen like it has to others.

If not we keep firing the GM... not condemning players who simply cant compete. And searching for the perfect Randolph trade.

Ayt · Post #7 » by **Ayt** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:41 am

Simulack wrote:All that Portland really did right is have an exceptional draft in 2006. If they end up with Thomas/Foye instead of Aldridge/Roy, they don't look nearly as smart and suddenly there is no correlation between them getting better and them trading Randolph.

Same is true of most of the other teams you mention. All teams like the Hornets, Spurs and the Cavs did right was land a superstar in the draft.

So all you really seem to be saying is draft well, don't take on bad contracts and get a good coach. Of course no one is going to disagree with that. Its just that

it isn't easy to do either of those things or there wouldn't be perennial lottery teams.

They made that happen. They traded up to ensure they would get Aldridge. They traded freakin Telfair for the pick that got Roy. Then they traded up to get Roy. They obviously had targeted both players.

Simulack · Post #8 » by **Simulack** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:43 am

Ayt wrote:They made that happen. They traded up to ensure they would get Aldridge. They traded freakin Telfair for the pick that got Roy. Then they traded up to get Roy. They obviously had targeted both players.

Of course, that was my point. All that they did was draft the right players. That's great but hardly a model the Bucks should follow as that is obviously what every team TRIES to do.

You can't say "We should do what Portland did" because you are basically just saying "We should draft some really good players!" Well duh.

Simulack · Post #9 » by **Simulack** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:45 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:Simulack...

Youre right. But in a small market what other choice do you have. You CANT sign the superstar.

You have to DRAFT one. You say it cant be done, but then, well

what about
The Spurs, the Cavs, the Nuggets, the Hornets, the Raptors, the Jazz, the Rockets, the Suns....etc, etc. Eventually wed get a Duncan, Lebron, Carmelo, Paul, Bosh, Deron Williams, Yao, Amare, whoever..

then we can start building. We got Kareem once upon a time. We wait for it again.

The vast amount of superstars in the league were DRAFTED by the team that holds their rights now. Whether you want to wait it out or not.... we have no choice, we MUST. Eventually it would happen like it has to others.

If not we keep firing the GM... not condemning players who simply cant compete. And searching for the perfect Randolph trade.

I don't disagree. I'd love to move Redd for picks/prospects.

Its just we have to be prepared for that process to potentially take years. For every Portland, there's a Charlotte that keeps adding draft picks and never gets better.

With the Bucks, I worry about the team leaving if the next 4-5 years are like the last 4-5. Plus there is the whole "culture of losing" argument. We might risk losing some of the core players we already have if this team continues to suck.

little_cleo · Post #10 » by **little_cleo** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:46 am

For the Bucks to compete they will have to adopt the Spurs model, I totally agree with you, I'm hoping Kohl will realizes this too before it's too late.

Cleveland and Chicago both followed the same model but for some reason they've side-tracked from it...I just hope they don't realize it before the Bucks can capitalize. I also agree that Indiana seems to be turning that way, right now but I don't think they have the same tradeable resources that Milwaukee does so I'm not too worried about them for now. On the other-hand; I don't think Portland, New Orleans, Orlando and Atlanta are following in the "Spurs Model" and in fact doing the exact opposite. I don't think any will make the playoffs in that group, maybe one at most, and if they do they'll get swept fast in the first round.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #11 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:46 am

Ayt wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

They made that happen. They traded up to ensure they would get Aldridge. They traded freakin Telfair for the pick that got Roy. Then they traded up to get Roy. They obviously had targeted both players.

I think the point is that they have built that team in draft day moves. They have taken on dead salary each of the last two years for high round #1s.... cut the guys. And now theyve got a **** of young guys just busting at the seams.

their success was ineveitable.

worthlessBucks · Post #12 » by **worthlessBucks** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:47 am

Ayt wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

They made that happen. They traded up to ensure they would get Aldridge. They traded freakin Telfair for the pick that got Roy. Then they traded up to get Roy. They obviously had targeted both players.

Just to add praise to the Portland organization, they do a remarkable job leading up to the draft in bringing in almost every eligible player. We bring in about 10 guys and call it a day. If the Blazers find someone they like, they go get them as Ayt mentioned. If the Blazers make the playoffs this year, I guarantee you they'll workout lottery talent before the draft despite not having a lottery pick.

Exhaust all avenues to improve your team, don't take things for granted (higher of second round picks on a player who would not have been drafted).

Simulack · Post #13 » by **Simulack** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:48 am

little_cleo wrote:Cleveland and Chicago both followed the same model but for some reason they've side-tracked from it..

How is Cleveland doing that? What is their plan? Land a once in a decade type talent and surround him with crappy, overpaid guys?

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #14 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:59 am

Simulack wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

How is Cleveland doing that? What is their plan? Land a once in a decade type talent and surround him with crappy, overpaid guys?

youre missing the point. They napalmed the team to land Lebron. Dealt every available piece except Ilgauskas.

They then won the lottery and got the guy. thats exactly what Im espousing we do. They screwed up when they signed Hughes. Screwed it up when they didnt deal Ilgauskas expiring for young blood. Screwed it up when they resigned Gooden.

If they had stuck to acquiring picks and young guys theyd have 2-3 more Gibsons, and 2-3 more Varajaos. Maybe a Pippen or a Tony Parker.

They could have been the Spurs, the Jordan Bulls. They screwed it up.... because they scraped the plan that landed Lebron in order to become the Bucks.

zizek · Post #15 » by **zizek** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:59 am

Portland traded to acquire another high pick instead of trading for a high salaried veteran as most on this board seem to prefer.

Simulack · Post #16 » by **Simulack** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:05 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:youre missing the point. They napalmed the team to land Lebron. Dealt every available piece except Ilgauskas.

Of course I understand that; I remember that season well. I just disagree with anyone who thinks it's "inevitable" that we will eventually get a superstar or 3-4 very good young players.

For every team that succeeds, there is another that is in the lottery year after year.

We tried doing that last year and it didn't work. How many years do we keep tanking? At what point do the fans TOTALLY give up and the team is moved?

Is it a viable plan? Of course if we draft well. But it is not the only option - this team would look a lot better if we had made a different type of move like trading Mo/Magloire for Boozer a few years back.

Ayt · Post #17 » by **Ayt** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:21 am

They also have a loaded owner and have been willing to buy draft picks that have netted some nice prospects.

They also already had several high ceiling young guys before they added Roy and LA.

zizek · Post #18 » by **zizek** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:32 am

The Bucks already have two or three high ceiling young guys. They only need one or two more who they might acquire if they devoted their resources to it.

Buck4Life · Post #19 » by **Buck4Life** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:22 am

four things I have learned in my life and they apply to any aspect of life:

1) No risk= No Reward
2) Bad experiences lead to lessons which lead to good experiences
3) If you dont work at it, you'll never get it
4) patience is key

if we as a fanbase and the bucks as an organization understand and accept those things than a day will come and we will all be rewarded.

europa · Post #20 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:31 pm

Ayt wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

They traded freakin Telfair for the pick that got Roy.

Danny Ainge has to get the GM of the year award. Not only did he swindle the T'Wolves out of Garnett but he helped put the Blazers in a position to contend as well with the ridiculously bad Telfair trade.

How many other GMs can say that?