Redd and Bogut vie for control of the Bucks' offense

[Fight the Tank]

I'm not happy about Redd's comments either. He played a terrific game against the Pacers. The Bucks wouldn't have won without him playing at such a high level in all probability. But if he felt the need to demand a larger role in the offense as opposed to realizing how beneficial it will be to him to have the offense run through Bogut than that's a serious problem. I can understand that Redd is frustrated and maybe even confused given how he's never had a strong post player to work with since becoming a starter (hell Bogut's probably the best post player the Bucks have had since Vin Baker). But he needs to understand that if Bogut can keep playing at this level it makes him even more dangerous and effective. He doesn't need to force his will on the offense, he can allow the offense to run through Bogut and his production will remain high and he'll get easier looks in the process. It really is fundamental basketball.

But I'll say it again - if Redd is unable or unwilling to grasp this then he should be traded.

This team has A LOT of issues right now internally. And they don't all revolve around Redd by any means.

Couldn't agree more...I always envisioned that Redd would get so many easy looks back door cutting off of Boguts post ups that this offense would be one of the best in the league. Instead it somehow turned into a dribble fest and isolation ball. There needs to some kind of happy medium found or Bogut will leave. Could anyone imagine someone on the Spurs or Pistons coming out and making these comments. There are enough shots for everyone to coexist but in reality I am very pessimistic that this will ever happen. This team is diseased in so many ways it really sucks. Just poor timing all around especially after a win.

[Fight the Tank]

In addition I want to see more of the 5 rebounds, 5 assists and NO turnovers Redd got last night. That was the best part of his game last night.

[trwi7]

A bear behaves as a bear, a cat behaves as a cat, etc. Nurture only has limited discipline over nature.

Cat Woman and Yogi Bear disagree.

[jeremyd236]

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Couldn't agree more...I always envisioned that Redd would get so many easy looks back door cutting off of Boguts post ups that this offense would be one of the best in the league. Instead it somehow turned into a dribble fest and isolation ball. There needs to some kind of happy medium found or Bogut will leave. Could anyone imagine someone on the Spurs or Pistons coming out and making these comments. There are enough shots for everyone to coexist but in reality I am very pessimistic that this will ever happen. This team is diseased in so many ways it really sucks. Just poor timing all around especially after a win.

Your post seriously reeks of bias. Seriously, look at your RealGM name. I don't understand why the offense HAS to run through Bogut every single night. The offense ran through Bogut every game in 2008 and we only won one other game other than last night. I want Bogut to get touches and to improve, but I also want to win. And there is a difference.

It's okay for Redd to go iso or whatever if he's "feeling it". Nobody's sitting here complaining about the sick number of 3's that Bobby jacked up last night. No matter win or loss, Redd always has to be blamed for something.

The two can coexist, believe it or not. Many of the "good" teams in the NBA have more than one reliable player. If Bogut reaches the point where he can consistently contribute as a top-tier center, trading Redd makes no sense.

[-Jragon-]

Redd (a star player) vs. Bogut (a rising star player) is not the issue here. The issue is that Redd, Bogut, Mo, Simmons, Charlie Squared, and Ivey are all on the same team (at this time.) And all of these players have to find the right balance of post up, shooting open shots, attacking the rim and drawing fouls to slow down the other team's run at you, defense, and hustle that will lead to wins. Once this certain balance is found (which is a change from their past losing style of play to a winning style of play,) the Bucks will learn how to win which will cure any of these "power struggles."

This is how I see the Bucks right now:
* Bogut
- now understands the balance it takes to win
- this is why he goes to the hoop strong when he has a good matchup
- passes to open people out of double teams
- stud of defense now

*Mo
- sacrificing for the good of the team right now, but he is a rising star
- waiting for the open shot or easy assist on the kickout
- playing the right way for a point guard with talented offensive weapons
- hustling on defense (although he isn't very talented at it yet)

*Redd
- teammates are starting to find him in the inside out game
- most of his shots in the Pacer game seemed to be in the flow
- other shots were late in the shotclock or on broken plays when your star should be aggressive and make something happen
- still forces up a few here and there which is annoying
- not playing selfish right now
- tries to play "enough" defense (seems to be improving, but lacks hustle)

*Bell, Ivey, Simmons, and the Charlie's
- seem to play within roles
- shoot open shots and making them right now
- moving the ball well and finding open teammates
- all take the ball in when their shot isn't falling
- all hustling and playing the best defense that their ability allows right now

*Ruffin, Jake, Gadz
- game changing hustle players
- not much offensive skill-passing, shooting, dribbling
- set athletic screens like the Suns set and get stars open space to make plays
- Very good defense (Ruffin is a defensive stud and should play more)

My overall point is that this Redd/Bogut power struggle is imaginary as a result of 2 highly competetive stars that are losing games. If the Celtics were losing right now, all 3 of their stars would feel that if they have the ball more, they will win - that's why they are stars. But the Celtics are winning because they have the right balance; so everyone is happy. Small issues get blown out of proportion when you are losing. For example: If we are winning games, Redd would probably say to a teammate, 'hey man, great game today. I just want to let you know that I was open on those drives you took so if you feel like you need an outlet I'm over there.' But when you are losing it can easily become: 'Why did we lose again? I'll tell you why we lost again. I should have the ball and the offense should be through me.' Reporters are just feeding off of negative feelings after frustrating losses and creating unnecessary drama so people will read the newspaper. We just need to find the right balance and win.

[Fight the Tank]

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Your post seriously reeks of bias. Seriously, look at your RealGM name. I don't understand why the offense HAS to run through Bogut every single night. The offense ran through Bogut every game in 2008 and we only won one other game other than last night. I want Bogut to get touches and to improve, but I also want to win. And there is a difference.

It's okay for Redd to go iso or whatever if he's "feeling it". Nobody's sitting here complaining about the sick number of 3's that Bobby jacked up last night. No matter win or loss, Redd always has to be blamed for something.

The two can coexist, believe it or not. Many of the "good" teams in the NBA have more than one reliable player. If Bogut reaches the point where he can consistently contribute as a top-tier center, trading Redd makes no sense.

Did I say anything about the offense being run through Bogut every time?

I hope you are not happy with the current direction of the team because that would be ridiculous. I am not blaming that on one person but I am blaming on how this team plays in general. If you think Bogut got enough touches last night you are insane.

I think Bogut is the best overall player on this team. I think Redd is a very good player who is being paid like a great player. If we could make the right trade with him this organization would be better served. We are not going anywhere doing the status quo. Come on.

[jeremyd236]

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Did I say anything about the offense being run through Bogut every time?

I hope you are not happy with the current direction of the team because that would be ridiculous. I am not blaming that on one person but I am blaming on how this team plays in general. If you think Bogut got enough touches last night you are insane.

I think Bogut is the best overall player on this team. I think Redd is a very good player who is being paid like a great player. If we could make the right trade with him this organization would be better served. We are not going anywhere doing the status quo. Come on.

I was agreeing with you until that comment. If you seriously think Bogut is a better overall player than Redd at this point in their careers, than you seriously are bias to the point where it blinds you. If any NBA team had to pick a player for just one season to have on their roster, they would pick Redd. Age, potential, whatever I'll give to Bogut. But right now, Redd is the undisputed best player on this team. His talent on offense is top 10 in the league. In my opinion, there's nobody else on this team who is top 10 in any facet of the game.

[Epicurus]

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Cat Woman and Yogi Bear disagree.

Yogi only acted the way he did because the Ranger allowed the visitors to not feed him when he was open in the post. I am surprised that Yogi stayed at Jellystone as the park and its ranger obviously were not properly using him and his high wilderness IQ.

[trwi7]

His talent on offense is top 10 in the league.

Come again? I was too busy lawlzing.

[Dags]

Your post seriously reeks of bias. Seriously, look at your RealGM name. I don't understand why the offense HAS to run through Bogut every single night. The offense ran through Bogut every game in 2008 and we only won one other game other than last night. I want Bogut to get touches and to improve, but I also want to win. And there is a difference.

Bucks have won more than 1 previous game in 2008. They're currently 6-7 for the month (going 3-1 when Redd was injured).

[showtimesam]

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I was agreeing with you until that comment. If you seriously think Bogut is a better overall player than Redd at this point in their careers, than you seriously are bias to the point where it blinds you. If any NBA team had to pick a player for just one season to have on their roster, they would pick Redd. Age, potential, whatever I'll give to Bogut. But right now, Redd is the undisputed best player on this team. His talent on offense is top 10 in the league. In my opinion, there's nobody else on this team who is top 10 in any facet of the game.

NEWSFLASH
Bogut is a better OVERALL player than Redd right now. Redd scores, thats it, Bogut defends better, passes better, plays smarter, makes teammates better, basically does everything better than redd besides scoring.

When redd is in a game and not scoring well, he kills our team, meanwhile if bogut's not scoring he's taking charges, blocking shots, and usually pretty much the only guy defending.

On top of that, when given the opportunity, Bogut has shown in 2008 that he's a consistent scorer and will deliver when given the chances.

Since he's not a guard, however, he won't have the ball in his hands as much so he needs to rely on teammates more so than redd to score, which makes it more difficult.

[jeremyd236]

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Bucks have won more than 1 previous game in 2008. They're currently 6-7 for the month (going 3-1 when Redd was injured).

I should have said that better. I meant every game since Bogut's transformation.

[Fight the Tank]

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I was agreeing with you until that comment. If you seriously think Bogut is a better overall player than Redd at this point in their careers, than you seriously are bias to the point where it blinds you. If any NBA team had to pick a player for just one season to have on their roster, they would pick Redd. Age, potential, whatever I'll give to Bogut. But right now, Redd is the undisputed best player on this team. His talent on offense is top 10 in the league. In my opinion, there's nobody else on this team who is top 10 in any facet of the game.

I think if you take Bogut off this team they are worse shape than if Redd is off the team....Just my opinion and it is slightly biased. I think Bogut brings more to the table overall. Defense, passing, rebounding and basketball intelligence. I wish Redd would play more of a Rip Hamilton role for this team but he wants to play Kobe. Add in his allergic reaction to defense and I feel Bogut is more valuable to this team right now. Redd does one thing great and everything else is bad in his game. Bogut obviously has a lot to improve on but he already does many things very well. Plus he is a center.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Redd (a star player) vs. Bogut (a rising star player) is not the issue here. The issue is that Redd, Bogut, Mo, Simmons, Charlie Squared, and Ivey are all on the same team (at this time.) And all of these players have to find the right balance of post up, shooting open shots, attacking the rim and drawing fouls to slow down the other team's run at you, defense, and hustle that will lead to wins. Once this certain balance is found (which is a change from their past losing style of play to a winning style of play,) the Bucks will learn how to win which will cure any of these "power struggles."

This is how I see the Bucks right now:
* Bogut
- now understands the balance it takes to win
- this is why he goes to the hoop strong when he has a good matchup
- passes to open people out of double teams
- stud of defense now

*Mo
- sacrificing for the good of the team right now, but he is a rising star
- waiting for the open shot or easy assist on the kickout
- playing the right way for a point guard with talented offensive weapons
- hustling on defense (although he isn't very talented at it yet)

*Redd
- teammates are starting to find him in the inside out game
- most of his shots in the Pacer game seemed to be in the flow
- other shots were late in the shotclock or on broken plays when your star should be aggressive and make something happen
- still forces up a few here and there which is annoying
- not playing selfish right now
- tries to play "enough" defense (seems to be improving, but lacks hustle)

*Bell, Ivey, Simmons, and the Charlie's
- seem to play within roles
- shoot open shots and making them right now
- moving the ball well and finding open teammates
- all take the ball in when their shot isn't falling
- all hustling and playing the best defense that their ability allows right now

*Ruffin, Jake, Gadz
- game changing hustle players
- not much offensive skill-passing, shooting, dribbling
- set athletic screens like the Suns set and get stars open space to make plays
- Very good defense (Ruffin is a defensive stud and should play more)

My overall point is that this Redd/Bogut power struggle is imaginary as a result of 2 highly competetive stars that are losing games. If the Celtics were losing right now, all 3 of their stars would feel that if they have the ball more, they will win - that's why they are stars. But the Celtics are winning because they have the right balance; so everyone is happy. Small issues get blown out of proportion when you are losing. For example: If we are winning games, Redd would probably say to a teammate, 'hey man, great game today. I just want to let you know that I was open on those drives you took so if you feel like you need an outlet I'm over there.' But when you are losing it can easily become: 'Why did we lose again? I'll tell you why we lost again. I should have the ball and the offense should be through me.' Reporters are just feeding off of negative feelings after frustrating losses and creating unnecessary drama so people will read the newspaper. We just need to find the right balance and win.

Wins change everything. Complaints become non-issues when a team wins, but this team isn't winning consistently so now we are hearing whispers of how much this player hates that player. We hear that if only this were my team instead of "his" team then we would win. The fact is we need some balance on this squad. I imagine if Redd and Bogut were BOTH getting the ball regularly.. there would be no sensationalized power struggle. If the starting unit didn't feel the need to overcompensate for the uneven performances of our bench then there would be no "hero complex" that we had to account for. Once we get the right back up pieces and folks get comfortable in their roles.. and all this goes away. Getting comfortable in your role when it was previously different may take more than one season and calls for patience that many of us (include players) don't have.

I think this team could play very well with with Bogut, Yi and Redd being the main pieces of the team.. but those guys have to learn each other and what they can do. They have to embrace the idea that this team wins based on how they work together and help facilitate that win. It takes time. Now if we could just get some pieces around them that could help them out..

[showtimesam]

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I think if you take Bogut off this team they are worse shape than if Redd is off the team....Just my opinion and it is slightly biased. I think Bogut brings more to the table overall. Defense, passing, rebounding and basketball intelligence. I wish Redd would play more of a Rip Hamilton role for this team but he wants to play Kobe. Add in his allergic reaction to defense and I feel Bogut is more valuable to this team right now. Redd does one thing great and everything else is bad in his game. Bogut obviously has a lot to improve on but he already does many things very well. Plus he is a center.

I totally agree with you, not really too biased, its obvious andrew does more things that you need to win games.

Redd in more of a rip hamilton role would be great, but I dont know if he can accept that with the bucks since he's been "the man" for so long.

[SupremeHustle]

Comes down to this:

The Bucks will never be better than mediocre with Redd as their "best" player, doesn't matter who the other 14 players on the roster are.

[Epicurus]

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I think if you take Bogut off this team they are worse shape than if Redd is off the team....Just my opinion and it is slightly biased. I think Bogut brings more to the table overall. Defense, passing, rebounding and basketball intelligence. I wish Redd would play more of a Rip Hamilton role for this team but he wants to play Kobe. Add in his allergic reaction to defense and I feel Bogut is more valuable to this team right now. Redd does one thing great and everything else is bad in his game. Bogut obviously has a lot to improve on but he already does many things very well. Plus he is a center.

Replace either with an average player at their respective positions and you would have largely the same result.

[Fight the Tank]

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Replace either with an average player at their respective positions and you would have largely the same result.

I can agree with that but I will take the younger Center over the older shooting guard any day.

[paul]

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Wins change everything. Complaints become non-issues when a team wins, but this team isn't winning consistently so now we are hearing whispers of how much this player hates that player. We hear that if only this were my team instead of "his" team then we would win. The fact is we need some balance on this squad. I imagine if Redd and Bogut were BOTH getting the ball regularly.. there would be no sensationalized power struggle. If the starting unit didn't feel the need to overcompensate for the uneven performances of our bench then there would be no "hero complex" that we had to account for. Once we get the right back up pieces and folks get comfortable in their roles.. and all this goes away. Getting comfortable in your role when it was previously different may take more than one season and calls for patience that many of us (include players) don't have.

I think this team could play very well with with Bogut, Yi and Redd being the main pieces of the team.. but those guys have to learn each other and what they can do. They have to embrace the idea that this team wins based on how they work together and help facilitate that win. It takes time. Now if we could just get some pieces around them that could help them out..

That's all fine except, hang on, we won tonight, then after the game Redd made these comments. I would question his motivation for making them. Was he trying to say 'Well I haven't been playing well but it's been because coach took my team away and gave it to a guy who isn't as good as me?'
What possible motivation could the guy have for coming out and saying this to the press after a win? As far as the sensationalized power struggle and the 'hero complex' go, well as best I can tell there's only one guy talking. It could be just me but I don't think these comments would go down well with his teammates.

[jeremyd236]

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I think if you take Bogut off this team they are worse shape than if Redd is off the team....Just my opinion and it is slightly biased. I think Bogut brings more to the table overall. Defense, passing, rebounding and basketball intelligence. I wish Redd would play more of a Rip Hamilton role for this team but he wants to play Kobe. Add in his allergic reaction to defense and I feel Bogut is more valuable to this team right now. Redd does one thing great and everything else is bad in his game. Bogut obviously has a lot to improve on but he already does many things very well. Plus he is a center.

I agree with you here. If you take Bogut off the team, they are worse than if you take Redd of the team.

But that does not mean Bogut is a better player. The Bucks have an abundance of guards who can play big minutes. Our backup center is a different guy every night (Jake, Ruffin, Gadz) but none of them are good. Bogut is the 2nd best center in the East. Obviously, taking him off the team will leave a bigger talent gap than if you took Redd off, who could have somebody like Bell or Ivey (people who have started before) start in his place.

Don't get my motives wrong here. To me, it doesnt matter who is better between Redd or Bogut. That's not the point. My original point was that these two are not competing for who the offense runs through. They don't care. And to think that is has to run through one player is completely untrue. Good teams have more than one reliable scorer.

And I agree with SupremeHustle's comment about not winning with Redd being the best player on the team. We will never win a championship if he's the best player on the Bucks. But again, that doesn't mean trade him. That really doesn't make sense at all. Trading Redd for a player of the same "level" won't make the other players more talented. On an ideal team, Bobby Simmons isn't a starting SF and there's no way in hell that Yi, at this age, is a starter.

But I think 2 things can be done with the Redd situation. You either surround him with better players or the current roster has to improve. What we're seeing now is a huge improvement with Bogut, and someday he and Redd could be a great 1-2 punch, but they have to work at it.