The Ernie Grunfeld Myth

Post #1 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:33 pm

This was touched on in another thread but given that LH is getting ripped and is likely on his way out I thought this should get a thread.

There is talk that we need a "name" coach like Karl and a "name" GM like Grunfeld. But what exactly did Grunfeld do while he was here? It was Bob Weinhauer who made most of the moves that built the ECF's team. Weinhauer made the Baker trade, Weinhauer made the Allen/Marbury trade.

It's not that Grunfeld didn't do anything good. He did after all draft Redd in round 2 (the same year he drafted Pryz #9 overall (and gave up a first rounder too).

He also traded for Caffey and his large contract. He signed AMase. Both of these moves killed us financially and led to buyouts.

He drafted Haislip.

And that's it. Technically he drafted Ford but not really. He resigned 3 days after the draft, it was already agreed to before the draft that he was leaving. Kohl wouldn't let him walk until after the draft but he also didn't let a lame duck GM make the pick either. Harris made the pick.

So the bottom line with Grunfeld is:

1. Drafted Redd (good)

2. Drafted Pryz (mediocore, giving up an additional first to trade up for him was not good).

3. Drafted Haislip (bleh).

4. Drafted Gadz (bleh).

5. Traded for Caffey (bad)

6. Signed AMase (bad).

For the most part he rode the moves that Weinhauer made before him. And then he left.

And Weinhauer certainly botched some moves too (Robert Traylor anyone?).

Ernie has made some good moves in Washington but as the Bucks GM he was flat out mediocre (at best).

mcfromage · Post #2 » by **mcfromage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:35 pm

How did we land Sam I Am?

Post #3 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 pm

Cassell was another Weinhauer deal, he was on the team when Grunfeld took over. We traded for Sammy in the second half of the 97-98 season. He was injured but it was a great trade and got rid of the turd Brandon.

mcfromage · Post #4 » by **mcfromage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:44 pm

Well Grunfeld may not have been Colangelo but he certainly seemed to have more authority and, in terms of managerial style, more gravitas then LH. I for one miss that type of presence. As I've asked in another thread, could Doug Collins be the sort of GM that Kohl would back off from?

drew881 · Post #5 » by **drew881** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:46 pm

I agree with some points. Some good moves, some bad moves. However

1) Drafting Gadz - I don't think this was horrible. Resigning him to his current deal was the mistake. On his rookie deal, he was worth his production at that time.

2) Getting Mason. I don't think this should all fall on Grunfeld. Karl was lobbying for Mason at the time (if I remember correctly players were wanting it to). Grunfeld got the personnel that his coach wanted. Yes it backfired, but he did a good job at the time to make that happen.

3) Was it Grunfeld who traded Tyrone Hill and Honeycutt to 76ers for Tim Thomas and Scott Williams? (1999 when Grunfeld started, but not sure who made the deal). I think this trade was good. TT obviously didn't pan out for us, but we got a couple good years out of him and he was decent in the playoff series losses to Indiana and in the ECF run.

unklchuk · Post #6 » by **unklchuk** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:46 pm

Haven't all of the name ex-GMs and ex-Coaches done better outside of Milwaukee than here?

Nelson, Karl, Dunleavy, Grunfeld all seemed to run into the Kohl Koldfront here but have reestablished their professional reputations elsewhere. Collins is said to have said yes and then thought better of it.

We don't have a small market problem. We have a puppet master owner.

Post #7 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:47 pm

The whole Weinhauer thing was strange.

First Dunleavy was hired as coach with the 8 year deal. We didn't have a GM at the time. Kohl couldn't find a GM who would come here with a coach under an 8 year contract (most GM's want to hire their own coach), so Kohl made Dunleavy the GM too (blunder). When Kohl fired Dunleavy as coach, Dunleavy wouldn't leave as GM and wouldn't take a buyout so Kohl amazingly kept him on when Chris Ford was hired as coach. Weinhauer had been VP of basketball operations in Houston and then ended up as an assistant coach here under Ford. When Dunleavy finally left as GM Kohl moved Weinhauer to GM.

He was only GM for 2 years and had some good moves and bad. He got the blame when both Curry's left as free agent and got the boot for Ernie.

Post #8 » by **paulpressey25** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:49 pm

EG's not great....but give him a team without superstars and he figures out how to get the right type of role players around them.

With the Knicks he gambled on Camby and Sprewell and got that team a Finals appearance on the backs of those two guys right after he was fired.

With the Wizards he got them Arenas, Jamison and Butler. And has added key guys around them like Daniels, Haywood, etc. who work.

Credit should go to Weinhauer. I do remember that Vin Baker trade. The guy got a PG who had made an all-star team (Terrell Brandon), a Power Forward who had made an all-star team (Hill) AND a first round pick for a player in Baker who the Bucks in retrospect knew had a serious drinking problem.

Post #9 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:50 pm

mcfromage wrote:Well Grunfeld may not have been Colangelo but he certainly seemed to have more authority and, in terms of managerial style, more gravitas then LH. I for one miss that type of presence. As I've asked in another thread, could Doug Collins be the sort of GM that Kohl would back off from?

I'm not sure what "authority" he had that was more than LH. He didn't sign any major free agents. He took on Caffey and his $6 million a year deal and AMase and his $4.5 million a year deal. But Harris has been allowed to spend far more (Redd and Mo). Harris has also made more trades than Ernie.

Ernie basically didn't do much of anything. But he was a "name" because he was drafted by us and worked for the Knicks.

And one other fallout from the AMase signing was that Scott Williams got traded to clear cap space. Dumb.

Post #10 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:51 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:EG's not great....but give him a team without superstars and he figures out how to get the right type of role players around them.

With the Knicks he gambled on Camby and Sprewell and got that team a Finals appearance on the backs of those two guys right after he was fired.

With the Wizards he got them Arenas, Jamison and Butler. And has added key guys around them like Daniels, Haywood, etc. who work.

Credit should go to Weinhauer. I do remember that Vin Baker trade. The guy got a PG who had made an all-star team (Terrell Brandon), a Power Forward who had made an all-star team (Hill) AND a first round pick for a player in Baker who the Bucks in retrospect knew had a serious drinking problem.

Agreed that Ernie did some good things in New York and Washington. He just didn't do anything above average here.

Post #11 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:53 pm

drew881 wrote:3) Was it Grunfeld who traded Tyrone Hill and Honeycutt to 76ers for Tim Thomas and Scott Williams? (1999 when Grunfeld started, but not sure who made the deal). I think this trade was good. TT obviously didn't pan out for us, but we got a couple good years out of him and he was decent in the playoff series losses to Indiana and in the ECF run.

That was Weinhauer too.

unklchuk · Post #12 » by **unklchuk** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:53 pm

"Harris has been allowed to spend far more (Redd and Mo)."

Do we know that those signings are things Harris wanted to do? Or did Kohl decide?

Post #13 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:56 pm

drew881 wrote:2) Getting Mason. I don't think this should all fall on Grunfeld. Karl was lobbying for Mason at the time (if I remember correctly players were wanting it to). Grunfeld got the personnel that his coach wanted. Yes it backfired, but he did a good job at the time to make that happen.

Yup this was another case where we had a coach with a big contract (Karl) and no GM (once Kohl fired Weinhauer). So Kohl threw some money at Ernie to get a "name" GM but yes Karl did lobby for Mason and Karl had a lot of pull. Just more evidence that Ernie did nothing in Milwaukee and had nothing to do with the one good team we have had in the last 20 years.

Post #14 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:59 pm

unklchuk wrote:"Harris has been allowed to spend far more (Redd and Mo)."

Do we know that those signings are things Harris wanted to do? Or did Kohl decide?

Absolutely Kohl is a very meddlesome owner. He has done it with every coach and GM. I'm not saying Grunfeld is a bad GM, he was good in New York and Washington. He was bad here. So is Harris. I guess one point I'm trying to make is that firing Larry and hiring a "name" isn't going to make a difference as long as we have the same owner. Kohl is the common denominator.

mcfromage · Post #15 » by **mcfromage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:10 pm

MD I refer you to PP's post from the other thread about possible solutions being 1. Kohl realizing he's got to give a GM more authority and 2. Change of ownership, maybe starkbucks. Your thoughts? Also, Collins?

Sigra · Post #16 » by **Sigra** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:12 pm

So where is that Bob Weinhauer now? Would he agree to came back?

Comet · Post #17 » by **Comet** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:17 pm

Grunfeld was a pretty lousy GM, but actually it was Kohl who signed Mason. Grunfeld had little to no interest in him.

Post #18 » by **MickeyDavis** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:18 pm

mcfromage wrote:MD I refer you to PP's post from the other thread about possible solutions being 1. Kohl realizing he's got to give a GM more authority and 2. Change of ownership, maybe starkbucks. Your thoughts? Also, Collins?

I agree with that but I can't see Kohl giving a GM more authority if he hasn't done so in 20+ years. Kohl ran off both Nellie and Karl.

I have no idea how Collins would do. Nothing he has done in the past makes me think he would do great as a front office guy, regardless of how much authority Kohl gives him.

I am firmly convinced we need a new owner as our number one priority. Sure we could get lucky and have a couple of good years like we did under Karl. But the odds are against it.

Kohl has a management style going back to his retail days. That style made him a lot of money selling clothes and kitchenware. Didn't work in basketball though.

Post #19 » by **paulpressey25** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:21 pm

I guess I've got hope that maybe, just maybe Kohl can give up GM power and sit back and enjoy the team......

I think if Kohl sells, it just starts that timebomb clock ticking about the future in Milwaukee. I'd prefer Kohl first try a good GM and see what happens.

I realize that may not occur though.

mcfromage · Post #20 » by **mcfromage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:31 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:I guess I've got hope that maybe, just maybe Kohl can give up GM power and sit back and enjoy the team......

I think if Kohl sells, it just starts that timebomb clock ticking about the future in Milwaukee. I'd prefer Kohl first try a good GM and see what happens.

I realize that may not occur though.

I suppose that in a vacuum I agree that keeping the franchise in Milwaukee is the top priority and that Kohl's continued ownership is the best way to guarantee that. I know the Senator has a nephew who works (worked?) for the franchise. Maybe he stands to inherit the team? Has anyone heard anything regarding a change of ownership since MJ almost got the team?