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We all blame Kohl-Harris combo for this mess. I have some time so I decided to make full and detail analises of all moves they ever made. These are only my opinions of course and I will respect anyone who disagree just as much as I will respect those who agree.

Team from 2002-03 season. Season before Harris.
Gary Payton, Sam Cassell, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason, Tim Thomas, Toni Kukoc, Anthony Mason, Jason Caffey, Marcus Haislip, Dan Gadzuric, Ervin Johnson, Joel Przybilla, Jamal Sampson. Coach George Karl

Team lost in first round of playoffs against Nets. Coach Karl is not on Kohl's good side anymore. Payton is free agent and wants to play for ring and is ready to take less money to play for contender. Young Redd is ready for bigger role. Team decided to rebuild.

Drafted TJ Ford
Logical move. The Bucks needed diference maker. Somebody who will lead and create for others. Bucks had wing players at place (Redd, Mason, Thomas, Kukoc) and PG who penetrate and kick was perfect fit. Considering TJ's NCAA career he was right player for that role. The new direction become run and gun basketball with scoring wings and TJ at point.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Sam Cassell for Joe Smith
Cassel was geting old and was not right guy for this rebuilding team. He was not PG who penetrate and create for others and would not be good fit with young wings. TJ Ford was already drafted to be PG of the future and Cassell would only by on his way. Bucks also needed PF considering that they planed to waive Anthony Mason and Caffey (Both fat slow half court players and bad fits with new direction of run and gun). Joe Smith, former first pick, would be great fit for that team.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Brian Skinner
We needed big and we signed one. Skinner become starter at C and had 10.5 PPG and 7.3 RPG. He provided muscle next to not so strong Smith. Great finding
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Fired coach George Karl
It was something that Kohl wanted to do and he did. But Karl was best coach that Bucks had since Don Nelson so I can't approve this move.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Damon Jones
Another good finding. Jones become backup at PG position and was great fit with young run and gun team. His lob passes to Mason become thing of beauty.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Named Terry Porter head coach
Kohl decided to go cheap at coaching position. Porter was good assistent with Sacramento and as former PG had good chance to be teacher of young TJ. But it was clear from begining that the guy has no experience or quality to be good NBA coach. Kohl-Harris combo made one more mistake about coaches. Insteed of looking for long term solution and stability they took quick and cheap option.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Waived forwards Anthony Mason and Jason Caffey
These guys were bad fit for young run and gun team. Good move to waive them.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Desmond Mason to a three-year contract extension
At that time it was not clear who is going to start at SG, Redd or Mason. Mason was young athletic guy with bright future. Team player and good guy. He didn't need much time to fell in love with Milwaukee and he signed extension for three years and not big money. That was good move by Kohl-Harris because money was not big, it was good chemistry guy and his future was bright.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Tim Thomas and Joel Przybilla for Keith Van Horn
This trade never made sense for me. I though then just like I think now that KVH was not good fit for that team. TT was more athletic and better defender and clearly better fit for run and gun team with TJ at point. This was first confused move by Kohl-Harris. They tried to bring half court player in run and gun team.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Brevin Knight
TJ just had his injury and was out for season. Knight was signed to replace him untill end of year. Although good defender Knight never find his place in our offense. I can't prise or blame anybody for this move. This was blah.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Bucks made playoffs and lost in first round against Pistons. Redd become first scorer. The team was without TJ in playoffs (and last part of season) and will find out that he is out for entire next season as well. Skinner left for Sixers for big money (Bucks were wise to let him).

Traded 45th overall pick for Zaza Pachulia
Good finding. With Skinner left Gadzuric was starting C and Zaza become main backup for Gadz. Great move
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Mike James
With TJ out we needed PG. James was good defender with Pistons and was able to hit from outside. Not real PG but nothing better was aviable. I approve this move.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Mo Williams
Great finding. We got him for next to nothing. He was not TJ but in combination with James he did solid job at PG position next year.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Re-signed Toni Kukoc
Good move. That year Toni will have injury problems but when he did play he was diference maker and leader of bench unit. Together with James and KVH will form good bench until Bucks traded James and KVH.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded KVH and James to free salary
We all know how great was this move. This move allowed us to re-sign Redd and also had us tanking which, together with lady luck, brougt #1 pick in Milwaukee.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Fired coach Terry Porter
It was about time. It was rather clear that this guy doesn't belong in that profession.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Drafted Andrew Bogut with #1 pick
Two years ago Bucks drafted TJ Ford and changed team direction to run and gun. TJ missed most of that time and that was one of the reasons why Bucks got oportunity to draft with #1 pick. Bucks have been terrible year before. Team was in mess. Injuries of TJ and Kukoc together with Gadz being starting C made bad start of season. Then when Kukoc came back Bucks traded KVH and James to make sure that they will suck all year. And still they needed luck to get #1 pick. Entire world knew that Bucks will draft Bogut. It was time to change team direction from run and gun to half court basketball. Bogut had all tools to make it hapen. But is new coach going to allow that? Stay tuned.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Named Terry Stotts head coach
When Bucks drafted Bogut most of us thought that logical direction would be to develop Bogut and inside-out basketball. But for whatever reason Bucks and their new coach didn't think like that. They wanted to win now. First they brought Magloire to play on Bogut's position. Then they wanted to start Smith over Andrew. And finally they still played offense around TJ and Redd. These were right things to do if you want to win now but wrong things to do if you want to develop Bogut and future. Kohl-Harris combo made one more mistake about coaches. Insteed of looking for long term solution and stability they took quick and cheap option. Stotts was win now coach without vision and plan. He will slow down development of Bogut and inside out game, destroy good idea of Blake at PG and fool everybody about real value of Mo (he put Mo in system that made him look much better than he really is which will fool Bucks to overpay for Mo). In retrospect Terry Stotts was worst move that Kohl-Harris ever made.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Re-signed Toni Kukoc
Toni was already old man and will not do much next year. But he was Bogut's idol and his contract was cheap. Good move
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Bobby Simmons
Most improved player of the year was good signing. Inteligent SF who do little from everything and was part of next year success. The contract may be a little to big but that is only way for Bucks to sign free agents. Simmons is good fit for inside out basketball. It was not his fault that Stotts used him at PF. And it was nobodies fault that he got injury. Kohl-Harris couldn't know that Simmons will get injury so I can't blame them for that just like I don't blame them for TJ's injury.
Sigra's opinion about this move: :thumbsup:

Re-signed Dan Gadzuric
Gadz has been terrible since then. Maybe Stotts killed him. Maybe he was never good to start with. It doesn't metter anymore. That was bad move to give that much money to tall guy who play with effort and who you know is not going to start.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Re-signed Michael Redd
Sure the contract is big. But that was only way to not lose him for nothing. I loved signing but I always planed to trade him down the line. It was clear right away that he doesn't deserve that contract and that's why I thought that Bucks will trade him as soon as posible. For me the point was to not lose him for nothing. But it looks like Bucks love him more than that. Anyway, Kohl-Harris did what they had to do. Good move all in all.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Charlie Bell
Great finding. One of the best movey Kohl-Harris ever made.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Mason and first round pick for Jamaal Magloire
Win now trade that slowed Bogut and forced him to play out of position. And we also gave first round pick for that.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded TJ Ford for Charlie Villanueva
TJ was not good fit for inside out basketball and it looked like Bucks plan to build their team around Bogut in the post. CV was good fit for that plan as a PF who streach defense and give space to Bogut inside. Little did we know that Stotts will not develop one single play for Bogut. Kohl-Harris couldn't know that CV will get injury so I can't blame them for that. CV was great before injury. This year Yi has promise about minutes which is killing CV. This was good move IMO but what hapened after that made that look bad.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Magloire for Blake and Skinner
Blake at PG was great idea. Blake would be perfect fit with out starting 5. Unfortunatly Stotts didn't have ball or brain to do that. Skinner was solid help in frontcourt. Good move.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Joe Smith for Ruben Patterson
Bucks were forced to do that as they knew that Simmons is not ready. But they could find better SF than stupid Patterson who was on Bogut's way in paint and was killing team basketball all year.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Traded Blake for Boykins
Bucks were almost forced to do that. That's how much they (Stotts) didn't know how to use Blake. Still terrible trade as Boykins was worthless.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Fired coach Terry Stotts and named Larry Krystkowiak head coach
Finally. Krystkowiak is terrible "win now" coach but he is going to save this franchise. We already see that Bogut can be all that we though he can be. He was just hold. We see that Redd is good only when he play ISO. We see how bad is Mo when he is not in Stotts system. Stotts hided our problems (guards) and was destroying Bogut. He also ruined great idea of Blake at PG. Great move that came almost too late.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Drafted Yi Jianlian
It looks like good move but I have feeling that it hapened for all the wrong reasons. Promising minutes (and yes they did) was terrible thing to do. We will see but considering what were alternatives this must be good move.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Signed Desmond Mason
Good intentions but bad result. Mason is bad for Bogut for same reason that Patterson was. He has no jumper and is on Bogut's way in paint. Bad move.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

Re-signed Mo Williams
Terrible move. Direct result of previous mistake of hiring Stotts. Stotts made Mo look better than he really is and Bucks overpaid big time for combo guard who should be 6th man. They pay him like he is starting PG and he just isn't.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

How they treated Bell
The way how this organisation treated Charlie Bell was direct result of their signing of Mo so that is also Stotts fault IMO. Bell was better option for PG position for this team. Always was and always will be.
Sigra's opinion about this move:

All in all Kohl-Harris did good in my book except when they had to choise coach. One of that mistakes (Stotts) has been especially painfull as that mistake coused some other mistakes (worst of them being re-signing of Mo).

I think we are on right way right now. I hope Redd is traded as soon as posible and then Mo after him.

I stopped reading when you said the Porter hiring was a bad move.....

I agree with everything except your dissaproval of hiring porter.

He was the right hire, his first season he took a team without a ton of talent, had them playing together, and playing hard.

Thats more than any team we've had since then.

I think bringing in stotts was the biggest blunder (a kohl move soley?) and that set this organization back big time. I'm not saying that because he was a horrible coach, but his style was not conducive at all to the personnel the bucks assembled and delayed boguts development for the first two years he was here.

Considering how vital bogut was to our long term success, I'm still amazed stotts didn't alter his style at all to make use of his talented big man.

Ford for CV was never a good deal.

Simmons was averaging like 13/4/2 his first season here and playing average defense.

He has always been a 5 million dollar per year below average starting/very good back-up SF... We paid Bobby Simmons twice as much as he was worth and now after we got hurt we are paying him about five times as much as he is worth.

How the hell can you classify that as a good move? It was a horrible signing.

I agree with most of that.....

In retrospect, the Stotts situation did set this team back. It set back Bogut's development and it over-inflated the egos and perceived value of Redd and Mo, for which we are now trying to correct.

The problem with the Kohl-Harris combo are the moves they didn't make that might have made some differences.....

The Boozer trade gamble would have paid off huge.

We could have gotten Andre Miller last year as part of the Iverson trade for Mo.

We could have made a run at Billups this past summer.....

And probably about 50 others that none of us know about.

In the end the results on the court speak for themselves....It hasn't been good.....Bogut and Yi have to develop into all-stars for these guys to vindicate their last five years of moves.

Some of the resigns they didn't make were actually very astute.

Gary Payton
Damon Jones
Brian Skinner x 2


And I will never, for the life of me understand why people would want Andre Miller over Mo Williams. The numbers are almost exactly (EXACTLY) the same, except Mo shoots the 3 much better and gets slightly more assists. Miller may be a marginally better defender, but he sucks on that end too. Mo is 25 and his game is actively maturing. Miller is a month away from 32.

I don't get that.

Sigra, I think that's really well done and I agree with 90% of it. Good to see the Joe Smith love. How much do we miss him now?

The only comment I want to make is about your hopes to trade Redd. I think the ideal candidate to move now is Williams. Redd is a wonderful piece for inside out, assuming he eventually finds his role.


Depending on a piece we could receive for Williams, his resigning could play out to be a good move.


Also, much depends on who the Bucks draft next, which is why I'd like to see Harris return for 2 years to let him finish out his plan.

midranger wrote:I don't get that.

Watch some Sixers games on league pass.....he's just a much different style PG. More half-court......more feed the bigs.....likes to post up on the blocks as Billups and Cassell do rather than shoot from the outside. (I like a methodical offense better as I think those wear the other team down better come playoff time)

He just gets his offense and assists in a different way than Mo does.

Then watch him on defense. He's not perfect and gets burned plenty of times, but he also fights through picks, hand checks with guys to get them annoyed and has an awareness of where his responsibilities are off-ball.

Would I prefer a better PG than Miller? Sure. Would I prefer a younger PG than Miller? Sure. But Miller is a guy who might be (and was) attainable.

I think Mo moves too fast for guys like Yi, Bogut and Redd. He'd fit better in a fast paced offense like the Suns......or a few other WC teams.

Impressively detailed analysis. Seems clear you are quite a fan, Sigra. I agree with much, and understand the rest. (Not that I think I'm an authority.)

What about rating the assembling of a roster that seems so out of balance? Two starting guards that overlap in strengths and share the same cavernous weaknesses. Two weak PFs.

You can kinda see how it all happened because of circumstances, but SOMEONE HAS TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR SEEING THAT IT ALL FITS TOGETHER.

When Dumars adds someone in Detroit, I expect to see his game grow as part of that team. When we add someone, I worry that his game will shrink or disappear...

Good analysis. I agree with most of it. Porter was hired because he was from Milwaukee and he was cheap. Period.

I agree with most of what you said. If you look at the deals one at a time they don't look all that bad, but the body of work sucks because the team is so bad. Like Uncle Chuck said the players don't fit together and isn't that what they should be looking for. (along with talent )

Mickey,

I saw this thread and it's what prompted my post. It fills in some of the gaps and it was relatively easy to pull. I think this is an intriguing conversation and difficult to draw a clear cut conclusion.

Go ahead and cut/paste your stuff from the other thread in here. It was good stuff but I would like just one thread on this so everyone can chime in on one thread.

paulpressey25 wrote:
In the end the results on the court speak for themselves....It hasn't been good.....

Agreed. But they really didn't have luck with injuries. Ford for 1.5 seasons, Kukoc when we needed him most, Simmons for entire season, CV for almost entire season, Redd for big period of time, Bogut etc. You have to expect some injuries but that is too much really.

And then you have all that coach changes and philosophy changes. You just build team to run with TJ and then you get lucky and draft franchise C. Then you build around that C but your coach still force guard oriented basketball. Now when we slowed down we see how bad defenders our guards are (and we spent all that millions on them) and that we need to play great offense to compensate for that. But you can't play great offense if your players are not on same page. Right now guards talk about how better we were last year when they were at charge. At the same time coach wants to finally do right things for long term of this team. Guards can't accept that as they probably honestly think that last year was better way. And they are paid a lot to be what they were last year.

In short, yes we are bad for years but last few years we are bad becasue of injuries and coaching/philosophy changes. We need to stay healthy and we need to have stability in coaching/philosophy. That's all

skones wrote:Ford for CV was never a good deal.

There are 2 ways to look at trades. How that looked at that moment and how that look now. At that moment 90% of Raptors fans were upset and 90% of Bucks fans were happy. Also media people declared Bucks as clear winer. Thats how it was then. And how is that now? Same IMO. With TJ thinking to finish his career and with Raptors playing better without him I don't think they are many people who cry because of that trade. At least CV play and score some from bench. He would play more and have better stats in some team that doesn't have Yi too.

LukePliska wrote:Simmons was averaging like 13/4/2 his first season here and playing average defense.

He has always been a 5 million dollar per year below average starting/very good back-up SF... We paid Bobby Simmons twice as much as he was worth and now after we got hurt we are paying him about five times as much as he is worth.

How the hell can you classify that as a good move? It was a horrible signing.

Healthy Simmons is good fit for inside out basketball. He was big part of our success 2 years ago. Injuries hapen and we can't do anything about that. These days Simmons is finally geting his game back and we can see how good he can be. If he completly came back Bucks will not want to trade him. You will see.

unklchuk wrote:You can kinda see how it all happened because of circumstances, but SOMEONE HAS TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR SEEING THAT IT ALL FITS TOGETHER.

Agreed. But I think if we were healthy and if we had coaching stability all of that would look much better.

I moved to Milwaukee in December 2002. My allegiances elsewhere with most the major sport's teams here, the Bucks become my local team. It just so happens that my history with the team coincides almost exactly with the start of LH era as GM of the Bucks. Here is the year by year breakdown of that history:

2003

Major happenings: Payton and D. Mason acquired for Allen, Ollie and Mason. Joe Smith and Peeler acquired for Cassell and E. Johnson. Ford drafted. Harris hired. Santiago, Skinner and Strickland signed. Karl fired. Damon Jones signed. Porter hired. A. Mason and J. Caffey waived. D. Mason signs a 3 yr deal.

2004

Major happenings: Redd named reserve all star. Van Horn acquired for T. Thomas and Przybilla. Ford injured. B Knight signed. Redd 3rd team all NBA, Ford 2nd team all Rookie. ZaZa acquire for 2nd round 2004 pick. Etan Thomas signed to offer sheet. Mike James and Zendon Hamilton signed. Mo Williams offered and signed as a restricted free agent. Re-sign Kukoc. James injured, Goldwire signed. Haislip waived, Fizer signed. Kukoc injured, James activated. Goldwire waived, Hamilton activated. Santiago injured, Gill signed. Strickland injured, House signed.

2005

Major happenings: Gaines and two 2nd round picks ('06 & '07) acquired for James and Hamilton. Booth, Henderson and cash acquired for Van Horn. Henderson waived. Porter fired. Drafted Bogut and Ilysova. Made qualifying offers to Gadzuric and ZaZa. Ford cleared to play. Jiri Welsch acquired for 2nd round pick (2006). Stotts hired. Re-sign Kukoc. Decline to match Atlanta's offer on ZaZa. Sign Simmons. Re-sign Gadz and Redd. Sign Bell and E. Johnson. Magloire acquired for D. Mason and 1st round pick (2006). Pick up option on Ford. Ilysova assigned to Tulsa. Bogut breaks nose. Joe Smith injured. Jackson signed.

2006

Major happenings: Bogut and Ford invited to play in rookie challenge. Draft David Noel. Acquire Markota for 2nd round pick (2007). Villanueva acquired for TJ Ford. Greer signed. Blake, Skinner and Ha acquired for Magloire. Ruben Patterson acquired for Joe Smith. Ha waived. Simmons undergoes surgery.

2007

Major happenings: Boykins and Hodge acquired for Blake. Simmons undergoes another surgery. Markota assigned to Tulsa. Reiner signed. Stotts fired. Larry K hired. Bogut and CV injured. Redd injured. Ilysova heads to Spain. Make qualifying offers to Bell and Ilysova. Draft Yi and Sessions. Sign Voskuhl and D Mason. Re-sign Mo Williams. Sign Storey. Sign Ivey and Ruffin. Simmons returns.

Let me summarize Sigra's post in a sentence.

We are good at finding talent, Its just always the wrong talent.