RealGM

As a lot of you will know I'm a big Bogut fan. I believe he is the future of this franchise and has the potential to be a monster in this league. I also believe this franchise should be building around him.

However

They are not. This team has been assembled with a clear view to being a 'run and gun' team, who freewheel offensively and rely on outscoring their opponents rather than stopping their opponents to win games. LK is trying to turn that around, but the simple fact of the matter is he doesn't have the cattle to run a half court game with any consistency, on either end of the floor. If we look at the core of this team sans Bogut we have -

Mo - A shooting guard in a pg's body, an excellent scoring threat but not naturally a 'pass first' pg which would really help Bogut, with a fairly low basketball iq and no defensive ability. A very poor 'post entry' passer, although does work the pick and roll well with Bogut.

Redd - A no conscience scorer, a guy not naturally suited to 'team first' play, a guy who is much more inclined to score himself than involve others purely because it's what he's best at. An average defender. A poor 'post entry' passer. Seems very reluctant to give up the reigns of what has been his team for a long time now, perhaps understandably.

Bobby - A guy who could be a piece added to suit Bogut's game, if he can get his game back on track after a long layoff. Probably the teams best 'post entry' passer.

CV - A no conscience scorer who's game is based on a principle not dissimilar to Redd's, without Redd's production or anything like his consistency. Could be a very effective piece on a team geared around Bogut if he learned that he's near unstoppable when he hits the rack instead of settling for jumpshots and focussed on his defence, but time is fast running out for him here, and LK seems to hate him.

Yi - Could be a very effective 1-2 punch with Bogut if his development continues as expected (hoped), however right now his production is a long way off that of an effective nba starter. It is conceivable that he won't be a consistent benefit to the team for another 2 years, which means a LOT of double teams for Bogut.

Bell - Possibly the best suited Buck to Bogut. A good 'post entry' passer, reasonably unselfish, solid defender, can knock down the open J off 'inside out' dishes consistently (provided the first half of this season was a one off). Problem is he's not a starter.

Des - A run and gun guy. Not suited to a Bogut based team.

Ivey - A good defender but very poor passer from the point.


So out of the 7 core guys, maybe 3 are suited to being on a team built around Bogut, 2 of them have had poor seasons to date and 1 is a rookie who's having a horror stretch. The problem is that there's no easy way to change the team personell to focus on Bogut, and there is absolutely no sign that they are even attempting to. With a guy like Jason Kidd on the market, if they were serious about this becoming an inside outside team revolving around Bogut they would be chasing him with everything they had, yet we haven't been mentioned as even a 'possible' suitor at any point yet.

With many on this board now suggesting we would be better focussing on playing the 'run and gun' style that this team is built for, I'm beginning to wonder whether
1) The bucks would indeed be better off doing this
and
2) Andrew Bogut would be better off in a system which would give more than 'lip service' to the idea of building around a good young center. I strongly believe he can be an allstar in such a system.

If we revert to the Stotts inspired run and gun as many are asking for Bogut can be effective in that system without doubt, but he will never reach anywhere near his offensive potential. He will become a guy who scores almost exclusively from passing in transition and put backs, and he is clearly capable of MUCH more than that. If we do that another thing will happen - Bogut will take his first opportunity to get the hell out of here.

So are we better off trading him now, rather than waiting around for the 2 or 3 trades necessary to gear this team around him, or for Mo to magically become a pass first defensive point guard and Redd to say 'No worries Drew, the teams yours', or indeed for the front office to grow a brain? There is no question we would get exceptional value for him, I would predict 15 teams in this league minimum would absolutely LOVE to have this guy on their books. LK in recent games has shown a weakening on his 'keep going to him even if he's struggling' stance, I'm wondering how long it will be until we are saying 'remember that month we went to bogut consistently how good he was?'

Very strong commitments have been made to both Mo and Redd in recent years, I can't see either of them getting shipped as much as I want to, and neither of them suit a team geared around Bogut without major changes to their games.

Whilst it will destroy me if Bogut is traded and could well be the final straw between myself and the Bucks, could it be what is best for both parties?

Andrew Bogut has shown more this month that he has during his entire career. With that being said, he wasn't worthy of being "built around" until now. We had the potential for a great inside outside team in Bogut's rookie year. Unfortunately that team was dismantled. I'll give the new gm whether hired from outside or inside a fair shake at trying to build around Bogut before I even consider trading him.

With that being said, a trade now benefits Bogut MUCH more than it does the Bucks.

I wouldn't be building around him right now, this is the time to plan, not execute. The fact is, until he shows this sort of form for more than a month I don't think it would be smart to try to build around him. If he can play like that consistently and come to a point where you know what you're getting out of him night in night out (regardless of the opposition) then yeah you build around that. Until then he is just another piece of the puzzle.

As far as trading him goes, I have no idea what his value around the league is. RealGM doesn't help either, some people say "I'll give you anyone on our team except (star player) for Bogut" others think he sucks, so I don't think the fans could give any insight on that regardless.

The notion that the Bucks could luck into the first pick, choose Bogut, and wait for 2.5 years for his development - and then not be able to make good use of him is repugnant and depressing. (Bucks fumbling is distressing, not this thread nor its author.)

The standards used to decide the Terry Schiavo case should be applied to this franchise.

Heh, look around the league, is there a single team would like to build around Bogut given his previous performance?

The Bucks problem is not they arent building around Bogut. Its that they have no idea how to. Coach K is unproven. He wasnt known for a offense master, nor a defense specialist. Hes a rookie himself, what do you expect?

You wanna build around Bogut? Hire JVG.

Citizen.Eras3d wrote:I wouldn't be building around him right now, this is the time to plan, not execute. The fact is, until he shows this sort of form for more than a month I don't think it would be smart to try to build around him. If he can play like that consistently and come to a point where you know what you're getting out of him night in night out (regardless of the opposition) then yeah you build around that. Until then he is just another piece of the puzzle.

As far as trading him goes, I have no idea what his value around the league is. RealGM doesn't help either, some people say "I'll give you anyone on our team except (star player) for Bogut" others think he sucks, so I don't think the fans could give any insight on that regardless.

Your right 'build around' is a strong term and one I used too liberally, my point was more to build a team that is compatible with inside out play based around a strong big man, which after drafting a big man seen as 'the future' of the franchise should have begun immediately imo. As I highlighted in my original post, I feel that the majority of the core players on this team are not naturally compatible with that type of play, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Trade Redd and Mo Williams and the problem is solved.

I am sorry to say that, but its true. Redd and Mo are great players, but for Bogut do develop we need people who can pass the ball. It would be great to get somebody like Calderon, a team player who always looks for the open man.

We will never ever see Boguts full potential as long as Redd and Mo are on this team, its sad but true.

Trade Bogut? No.

This team is better off continuing what it is doing and put the right players around Bogut, Yi and Redd to make it work. Players just need to believe in their roles and when you are losing that is very difficult to do.

I don't see how this team is built to be a run and gun team. Not at all. We are a bit of a mixed blend with Mo, Yi and Dez being good in a run and gun offense and Redd and Bogut not being so good. I think we try and do a bit of both. Run when you can. We perhaps are built better to be a more free flowing care free offense where our guards can let em fly. Here is where some changes need to be made. Move Mo and CV for toughness and defense at PG and PF. Things will look much better.

I do agree that this team's offense was better when it attempted to utilize our strength in guard play, but in the end that wasn't going to get us very far. Live and die by the jumper and a team comprised of very similar talents compared to the big 3 team, just wont work. We proved it.

I like the direction of inside out play. I think that fits Bogut and Redd very well. I think offensively Mo can cope with that too as he is very capable of playing either style of ball. Redd needs to learn his role, but the crutch is if we plan to be a grind it out defensive team we actually will need some guys who can play defense. Most notably on the perimeter. What good is our guards scoring big numbers if they only get countered by their opponent every night?

Mo - Good shooter/scorer.
Redd - Great shooter/scorer.
Simmons - Supposed to be a good shooter.
Yi - Good shooter who can stretch the floor.

All of our other four positions are filled with guys who can hit jump shots... The team is built around Bogut, when we are healthy he should have plenty of room to work with four shooters around him.

The problem is that Simmons is underachieving (by a lot) and Yi isn't consistent enough.

Add this to the fact the team has only had a legit post presence for a month and is trying to adjust to playing inside-out during the middle of the season and you have some problems.

I say give them until the end of the year and if nothing changes then make some major moves involving Redd/Mo/CV/Yi. Obviously we need to upgrade our SF position, get a defender at PG and upgrade our bench regardless of what happens though.

Chapter29 wrote:Trade Bogut? No.

This team is better off continuing what it is doing and put the right players around Bogut, Yi and Redd to make it work. Players just need to believe in their roles and when you are losing that is very difficult to do.

I don't see how this team is built to be a run and gun team. Not at all. We are a bit of a mixed blend with Mo, Yi and Dez being good in a run and gun offense and Redd and Bogut not being so good. I think we try and do a bit of both. Run when you can. We perhaps are built better to be a more free flowing care free offense where our guards can let em fly. Here is where some changes need to be made. Move Mo and CV for toughness and defense at PG and PF. Things will look much better.

I do agree that this team's offense was better when it attempted to utilize our strength in guard play, but in the end that wasn't going to get us very far. Live and die by the jumper and a team comprised of very similar talents compared to the big 3 team, just wont work. We proved it.

I like the direction of inside out play. I think that fits Bogut and Redd very well. I think offensively Mo can cope with that too as he is very capable of playing either style of ball. Redd needs to learn his role, but the crutch is if we plan to be a grind it out defensive team we actually will need some guys who can play defense. Most notably on the perimeter. What good is our guards scoring big numbers if they only get countered by their opponent every night?

I actually disagree regarding Mo. I think he is only really suited for the 3 guard isolation offense. He isn't very good on the fastbreak (I rarely see him pass - he either pulls up for a jumper, or he curls back out to the perimeter and waits for everyone) and he isn't very good in the half court, except in pick and rolls. The above being in the role of point guard. He is a good shooter and an ok scorer.

In regards to Bogut, both parties would have been better off if the Bucks drafted the best player available, and not for need. The #1 pick is a chance to get that one special player. History is already proving that Bogut wasn't that guy. Chris Paul is a superstar. Does Bogut have the potential to be one? I'd say he has the skill and physical requirements for his position, but he lacks heart. If he had heart, he would have been demanding the ball his first two years, and Larry Krystkowiak would never of had to have been hired. Bogut is the TinMan, and Redd is the Scarecrow. Krystkowiak is the Cowardly Lion.

howe070523 wrote:Heh, look around the league, is there a single team would like to build around Bogut given his previous performance?

The Bucks problem is not they arent building around Bogut. Its that they have no idea how to. Coach K is unproven. He wasnt known for a offense master, nor a defense specialist. Hes a rookie himself, what do you expect?

You wanna build around Bogut? Hire JVG.

I agree I think this team would be perfect for JVG to take over...I say make him coach/gm I think he will excel with that...

Exactly we need to keep bogut... and also Yi
Its up to LH/Kohl whoever, to start getting players with their same IQ and team oriented approach to start getting a team that actually has a future to become a top team in the east.

Rockmaninoff wrote:I actually disagree regarding Mo. I think he is only really suited for the 3 guard isolation offense. He isn't very good on the fastbreak (I rarely see him pass - he either pulls up for a jumper, or he curls back out to the perimeter and waits for everyone) and he isn't very good in the half court, except in pick and rolls. The above being in the role of point guard. He is a good shooter and an ok scorer.

In regards to Bogut, both parties would have been better off if the Bucks drafted the best player available, and not for need. The #1 pick is a chance to get that one special player. History is already proving that Bogut wasn't that guy. Chris Paul is a superstar. Does Bogut have the potential to be one? I'd say he has the skill and physical requirements for his position, but he lacks heart. If he had heart, he would have been demanding the ball his first two years, and Larry Krystkowiak would never of had to have been hired. Bogut is the TinMan, and Redd is the Scarecrow. Krystkowiak is the Cowardly Lion.

Mo isn't a very good passer period. On the break or in the half court set, but he is quick and fairly athletic and runs the fast break well. I never said he was very good on passing on the break, but rather executing on the break as someone else delivers the ball.

In regards to Bogut. No one and I mean no one was selecting Paul 1st overall. Hindsight is in fact 20/20. Utah was in love with Williams and may have selected him 1st overall, but that would be about it. Just about everyone would have selected Bogut and I am very comfortable with that. I like him. Granted not the star player you'd like at #1, but heck it could be worse we could have picked the year after and got Bargnani.

Chapter29 wrote:Granted not the star player you'd like at #1, but heck it could be worse we could have picked the year after and got Bargnani.

Or you could have picked LaMarcus Aldridge or Brandon Roy. I hear those guys are pretty good.

No, he and Bogut are our future.... no way.

Move Redd or Mo instead.

trwi7 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Or you could have picked LaMarcus Aldridge or Brandon Roy. I hear those guys are pretty good.

Or Ty Thomas...he is good

trwi7 wrote:Or you could have picked LaMarcus Aldridge or Brandon Roy. I hear those guys are pretty good.

True.

I hear their pretty good as well.

I doubt that anyone picks Roy #1 overall. But most would regret it of course.

I actually thought Bargnani was the right pick at the time. Much like Bogut.

I'm wondering if Bogut will want to resign here. Lets face it this organization is absolute mess, has been and for the foreseeable future should continue to be. I don't know if I'd want to stick around.............

showtimesam wrote:Exactly we need to keep bogut... and also Yi
Its up to LH/Kohl whoever, to start getting players with their same IQ and team oriented approach to start getting a team that actually has a future to become a top team in the east.

And therein lies the problem. This was not meant to be a trade Bogut thread, I've always been one of his biggest supporters, however I don't believe Mo as starting pg and Redd as starting sg will ever work properly on an inside out team, and I can't see either of them getting traded. I fear we're going to continue to watch this 'not work' for several seasons, and if that happens Bogut will leave anyway imo. I absolutely do not want to see Bogut traded under any circumstances, was merely playing devils advocate as I don't see the right pieces being put around him.

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



And therein lies the problem. This was not meant to be a trade Bogut thread, I've always been one of his biggest supporters, however I don't believe Mo as starting pg and Redd as starting sg will ever work properly on an inside out team, and I can't see either of them getting traded. I fear we're going to continue to watch this 'not work' for several seasons, and if that happens Bogut will leave anyway imo.

I easily could see one get traded, but if it does happen, i think it will be more because of defensive issues than how they function as a trio on offense.

Guys like Harris and Babcock can't be blind enough to not see the defensive problems a Mo/Redd backcourt bring to the team. My guess is they would be quite open to breaking those two up, but whether a trade can be worked out or if Kohl would OK a trade is another story.