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One of the reasons many of us were optimistic about our team improving this season despite the blatant various roster flaws was Redd's improved play and attitude following playing for Team USA.

He came to camp in the best shape of his life, talking about how his experience there taught him how to prepare, how to win, and how to make his teammates better. He committed to passing more and playing better defense, and for the first few weeks of the season at least, there was evidence that he was taking that to heart with more focus on passing (especially on pick and pops to Yi) as well as better defense (especially his great D on Kobe).

Was this new and improved Michael Redd a mirage, or can he return to that form and attitude permanently? He certainly has returned to the old Michael Redd since, but is that a function of the degree to which our roster doesn't work, a clueless coach, and a generally dysfunctional lockerroom?

If Kohl thinks that Redd can become the player he was planning on becoming this season, it makes it a ton more likely we can keep him. If he can do that, then he wouldn't be a bad fit on this team as a matter of fact. However, his extremely greedy play (especially int he 4th quarter) throughout this season leaves me in deep doubt that Redd can ever become that player.

Do even the biggest Redd supporters think that he can come back to the Redd we all were hoping for, or do we reduce our expectations to hoping he can be a good high scoring second option but not remotely a team leader?

raferfenix wrote: Redd's improved play and attitude following the olympics.

Damn is it the 2008/2009 season already? Time flies.

trwi7 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Damn is it the 2008/2009 season already? Time flies.

thanks for the thoughtful analysis

raferfenix wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



thanks for the thoughtful analysis

Happy to provide it.

it seems that redd doesn't want to be that anymore, so it seems unlikely that it would ever last for long

Redd's role on Team USA was pretty much to come off the bench and take a shot whenever he was remotely open. He succeeded with that because A) he wasn't playing as many minutes as he does in a regular NBA game and B) the competition wasn't a strong allowing him to get open easier.

Redd's playing the same way he did with the US team as he is with us except he's starting. I'd bet that he's shooting just as much on a per minute basis.

steger_3434 wrote:Redd's role on Team USA was pretty much to come off the bench and take a shot whenever he was remotely open. He succeeded with that because A) he wasn't playing as many minutes as he does in a regular NBA game and B) the competition wasn't a strong allowing him to get open easier.

Redd's playing the same way he did with the US team as he is with us except he's starting. I'd bet that he's shooting just as much on a per minute basis.

Team USA's Coach K lauded Redd for his hustle and even his defense.

Even if he was exaggerating a lot, Redd did set the bar extremely high for fan expectations for his defense this season as well, but that attitude certainly seems to have disappeared after early indications this season that he was going to give it a real shot.

Don't overlook steger's point though. There was never a point during the USA games where Redd acted as a distributer or as a lock-down defender against a skilled opponent. He came off the bench as a gunner, and shot a lot on a per-touch basis. The guys who he was lauded for defending were college-level players.

I too was excited when he said all the right things last summer, but that stretch of five games where he played good two-way ball was the mirage. He was a gunner in 06-07, he was a gunner on team usa, and he's a gunner this year.

Coltrane and Picasso were able to change their styles after maturing in another style, but I see no reason to think that Redd will be one of those extremely rare human beings who does a thing like that.

I'm a huge Redd fan and I'll be the first to admit he'll never be the lockdown defender or fastbreak passer that we're all hoping he will be. His job is to score, and he can do it in any possible way (save dunking).

He's best and "looks" best on a team where that's what he's supposed to do. That attitude that you speak of isn't a "mirage". He came into this season a better passer, and his assists improvement shows that.

If Kohl knew anything about basketball, he'd know Redd's limitations. It is not Redd's fault that the owner (or GM perhaps) of this organization cannot find correct complementary players for the person they are supposedly building around.

Bring in jump shooters and other "scorers" for their positions like Mo, Simmons, or CV was not the right way to go.

It's common sense that if you've got an elite scoring talent at the 2, you bring in elite defenders, passers, rebounders to surround him. You don't bring in jump shooters at every position.

The approach I just suggested is a hell of a lot easier and better than bringing in random guys who'll come here and hoping that the best player on the team becomes something he's not comfortable or capable of being.

adamcz wrote:Don't overlook steger's point though. There was never a point during the USA games where Redd acted as a distributer or as a lock-down defender against a skilled opponent. He came off the bench as a gunner, and shot a lot on a per-touch basis. The guys who he was lauded for defending were college-level players.

I too was excited when he said all the right things last summer, but that stretch of five games where he played good two-way ball was the mirage. He was a gunner in 06-07, he was a gunner on team usa, and he's a gunner this year.

Coltrane and Picasso were able to change their styles after maturing in another style, but I see no reason to think that Redd will be one of those extremely rare human beings who does a thing like that.

You are absolutley right, and I too was sucked in by him saying all the right thigns and coming into such good shape. However, I was not expecting him to become a Kobe or Mcgrady kind of distributors or defenders. I was hoping for improvement in both departments though, if only because of him trying to take on more of a leadership role and putting the team first.

This has not worked out at all though, and I'd say his illusions of being as good as Kobe have gotten to him so badly that he becomes a particularly rancid ball hog in the 4th as he tries to take his game up a notch.

If we do not trade him, I do hope that he takes the message he should have gotten from that experience, which is only for him to play harder on defense and less selfish on offense.

November 21st, 2007. Redd puts up 26/8/7 (incl. 9/11 from the line) against Kobe the night after he goes 34/7/6 against the Cavs. The talk post-game was how important the Olympic team training against Kobe, etc. had been and how his play against Kobe changed the game.

Redd:

Coltrane and Picasso were able to change their styles after maturing in another style, but I see no reason to think that Redd will be one of those extremely rare human beings who does a thing like that.

Very offtopic adam, but since you mentioned it... I've been listening to Coltrane's Blue Train a lot lately. Is this pre-style change or post-style change?

skidjuret wrote:Very offtopic adam, but since you mentioned it... I've been listening to Coltrane's Blue Train a lot lately. Is this pre-style change or post-style change?

Blue Train is very early; I think '57, before he even had a band. People sometimes call those years "sheets of sound." Then you've got '59-61 where he obsessively worked with the Giant Steps formula. '61-64, the classic quartet, and '65-67 the late/abstract works.

Lots of musicians play different styles of music throughout their careers, but the difference is that Coltrane changed what he played. When you listen to Miles Davis playing jazz in the 50's or 60's, fusion in the 70's, or pop in the 80's, the actual notes and phrases he's playing are basically the same style, plugged into a different environment.

I've noticed the same is true in most disciplines. Once somebody matures into a style, and has success with it, it's unlikely that they'll change. We can't name many musicians, artists, or basketball players who did - I'm not sure if I can name any basketball players, unless they changed to a less athletic style because they were forced by injury.

Redd is the best shooter Team USA has had in a while, but I'd rather have Korver or Kapono on the team. Redd is a great shooter, but he's a little too streaky for my taste. Still, he's an upgrade over what we had in past tournaments. I hope he makes a difference in August.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into getting some more Coltrane.

As for athletes changing, baseball players seem to do it quite a bit, going from quick baserunners to heavy power hitters. Of course that happens to be mostly from steroids.

Adam,

Who are your favorites from a pure listening standpoint? There are some jazz musicians who are just a little too much of artists' artists for my taste (if you know what I mean). Bitches Brew and most of Sketches of Spain is this way for me. I do like Stan Getz and Coleman Hawkins quite a bit. I like a fair amount of Charlie Parker too, but sometimes even he'll cross that line.

midranger, I'm not sure if you will like a lot of the things that I do. I'm aware of what you mean by stuff being geared too much to artists, but I don't know specifically what trips off that alarm for any one person. Maybe not enough melody? Too much chromaticism? No beat that you can tap your feet to?

Everyone seems to like Miles Davis: Kind of Blue.

I simply love Coltrane, but be aware that the music grows more challenging throughout each year of his career. Might be best to approach it chronologically. Check out Blue Trane first, and if you like it move on to (in order) Giant Steps, My Favorite Things, A Love Supreme. I won't suggest anything later than that, because only musicians like it. But you never know.

Couple other albums I love (and think others might enjoy) are: Duke Ellington - Such Sweet Thunder, and a pretty recent one: Terence Blanchard - Flow.

Thanks Adam. I agree about Coltrane and own those albums already. Sorry, I should have said that. Duke Ellington is a great one too. He's the great American composer.

Since it's free to listen to samples at itunes and figure out if you may like something I'll throw out some more names of living musicians that I like a lot: Miguel Zenon, Brad Mehldau, Branford Marsalis, Ben Allison, Mark Turner...

Almost no jazz is coming out on major labels anymore, so if you don't seek the stuff out, you won't come across it. Nearly 10,000 independent jazz records released a year means a lot of music (some great and probably lots of junk) is going unheard.

I think Redd let it go to his head big time. Look where the Bucks are. If Redd was even close to Kobe's level the Bucks would be closer to .500 than they are. Kobe on bad teams has pushed his team to .500 Redd is overpaid big time. He needs to be paired up with the likes of KG and PP of the Celtics in order to reach that 50 game win level.