Race, Culture and Leadership

[Chuck Diesel]

One big theme for the Bucks was leadership (or lack thereof). The Bucks have been lacking a leader for quite some time, and it's shown in their record. Some within the organization, some in the media and some posters on this forum believe Andrew Bogut is capable of being a leader. Although he went through immaturity issues where he didn

[0BobLobLaw0]

[ReasonablySober]

I think you want your best player to be your leader. Whether he's a leader or not, if Bogut is our best player in two years the Bucks are in serious trouble.

As for the original topic idea, I have no idea if it's difficult for a non-African American to be a leader.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

The NBA is nearly 80% African American. Is it a difficult dynamic for black teammates to accept having the leader of the team be white? Is it difficult for a white Americans in the NBA to accept the leader of his team being foreign? Again, is it bigoted or ignorant to even be thinking this way?

I think the worst thing would be if you were too nervous to ask the questions that are obviously on your mind.

Race plays a role in anything, but I really don't think it - by itself - could stop somebody from leading others of different backgrounds. For the past ten years or so I've lived in the most diverse environments in the country, and I see leadership and lack of leadership coming from all shapes and colors. Some people just have the ability to motivate others, and others don't.

s good as Dirk Nowitski is he has never been the leader in Dallas. As good as Yao Ming is, I don't think he is considered a locker room leader in Houston. Was Pau Gasol the leader in Memphis?

Not many people alive have great leadership abilities, so you shouldn't expect any particular NBA player to be great at it. A lot of the guys we call great leaders probably aren't; they're just guys who play the game well enough so that their teammates follow their practice habits and the like by example.

[jerrod]

i think it would depend greatly on the that specific group of players, not just the feelings of the non captains, but the level of overall respect for the captain. meaning that yi couldn't be a captain on any team right now but put bogut on the sonics right now and he might be.

to answer the question better, it doesn't take the whole team having a problem with it to cause trouble so i guess i'd say that it probably is more difficult

[0BobLobLaw0]

I think a leader is a leader regardless of what race they are. Leaders naturally come out and be assertive and gain the respect of ther teammates.

My senior year playing HS bball we had a freshman on the team, he wasn't captain or anything like that, but he was our team leader. It took a while for the upperclassman to realize/ accept it, but he was.

[EastSideBucksFan]

Sure race can be a factore. Bogut was not viewed favorably by his teammates after his comments to the Aussie media. He even went so far as to call Michael Redd afterwards to make sure he wasn't misinterpreted, but I think those comments did do some damage for his relationships on the team.


That said, I think a leader is established first and foremost by what is done ON the court. Then it is up to that player to establish himself OFF the court as well.

For example, Redd's play on the court is up to par, but his lack of "taking the reins" mentality off the court is what makes him not a leader. I think he actually learned too much from Ray Allen in that regard.

If Bogut can start turning in double doubles on a nightly basis, guys will be ready to follow him. If he starts speaking up off the court, I think guys will listen. But right now the locker room chemistry and combination of players (Mo, Redd, Mason) have made him hesitant to step up and try to be the leader.

[Licensed to Il]

Interesting question, simple answer. A player can build up "leadership equity" in many ways. But hard work, respect to management, squeaky clean self image, and leading the prayer circle at halfcourt all pale in comparison to simply being the best player on the team.

People consider Jordan the consumate leader. But as time passes we have learned that he: was drinking buddies with the refs, had a few mistresses, punched out players during practices, intentionally held back on expressing himself in order to be more marketable, etc. Does any of that matter? Not really, because the guy was such an unstoppable force on the basketball court that everyone fell in line and did what he said.

A lesser player would not get away with any of the basketball crimes in that last paragraph and stay considered a team leader. I mean.. there are lots of stories about MJ following around Krause on the team plane and in the Berto Center and mocking him. But does anyone dispute him as a storied leader?

The point is that great players can write their own ticket, do whatever they want (so long as you stay south of the Sprewell line) and its all good. Race has very little to do with it. It's about your game, not your ethnicity.

Lots of stories about how Bird was kind of a SOB too, but he was the unquestioned leader of the Celts.

Yi and/or Bogut will lead the Bucks based on their talent. The other stuff plays in... but on a much lesser scale than the media makes it out to be.

[Cold Crush 24]

Being of Multi racial dissent I don

[Cold Crush 24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Patterson

[BrewCityBBQ]

I think the leader of a basketball team should be the smartest basketball player on the court. For the Bucks its Bogut. It doesn't necessarily need to be the most vocal player but the one who knows how to play basketball the right way.
And most importantly, the one who knows how to win...




-- Sorry crazy MBOT ref.

[carmelbrownqueen]

I think you want your best player to be your leader. Whether he's a leader or not, if Bogut is our best player in two years the Bucks are in serious trouble.

As for the original topic idea, I have no idea if it's difficult for a non-African American to be a leader.

Ideally your best player "should" be your team leader but in reality that isn't always the case. The leader of the team almost always is the guy who has the most natural leadership skills/abilities..Many times that guy isn't the best player and often is the guy with the most charisma and has earned the most respect of his fellow players, be that because of their experience or their approach to ever aspect of the game. That guy could be a bench player or a rotation guy that does whatever it takes to bring the team together even if he doesn't have the most individual talent. Its always interesting to hear the misconceptions of what a leader should be or who it should be because usually its based off how much a team chooses to pay a guy..which has nothing to do with what kind of skills they have to lead a group of people.

[carmelbrownqueen]

i think it would depend greatly on the that specific group of players, not just the feelings of the non captains, but the level of overall respect for the captain. meaning that yi couldn't be a captain on any team right now but put bogut on the sonics right now and he might be.

to answer the question better, it doesn't take the whole team having a problem with it to cause trouble so i guess i'd say that it probably is more difficult

Honestly I am of the opinion that even though this team has a number of interesting personalities, very few of them appear to have what it takes to lead their team right now. The closest guy to a team leader on the Bucks right now would probably be Bobby Simmons and due to his irritation and frustration with his performance this season, role on the team, and other issues with management he isn't a leader to anyone probably more of a dissenter.

Everyone else selectively asserts themselves but don't have "it" that makes them someone everyone else wants to follow. It has nothing to do with race, culture or the team you are on...its 100% about how you interact with people. So even if Bogut was on the Sonics I don't think he would be the leader of that team..he will need to do more than just mature a bit and produce on the court to get that distinction.

[DH34Phan]

LMAO @ Bobby Simmons.

[paul]

LMAO @ Bobby Simmons.

Interestingly I actually agree to some extent with CBQ on this, I think Bogut is the obvious choice to be this teams leader but I also think guys like Bobby and Charlie Bell show some leadership qualities. Now Bobby hasn't helped himself this season (flintstone probably didn't either) with the fact that he openly showed his displeasure with the coach and his situation, but I think some guys in the locker room were actually on Bobby's side. Bobby at his best isn't super flashy or extroverted, the guy just gets the job done, and players respect that.
Leadership comes in many shapes and sizes, ideally you've got a best player and a good 'glue guy', it's great if you can have a leader who hustles his a** off and just does all the right things on court. Look at Houston, they've got Yao and Tmac, two of the best players in the league, yet I see Battier as being their natural leader and a big part of their success. The guy plays super hungry, hustles for everything, dives on loose balls etc, and no doubt sets a great example for his teammates, particularly the young guys.
I'm actually of the opinion that the most supremely talented guys don't make the best leaders 99% of the time, because they don't have to work as hard as everyone else. Unless it's an extreme example like MJ who busted his a** at practice and was supremely talented. But guys respect hard work more than natural ability imo.

As to the original question I think as a young guy the cultural thing can prove to be a problem (as bogut discovered) but I don't think race is so much of an issue when it comes to your team leader, I just think you'll find that the vast majority of great players on given teams happen to be african american guys right now. Nash is a good example though, he's both white and foriegn yet there's absolutely no doubt he's the leader of the suns.

[NOODLESTYLE]

International/White guys? Steve Nash = 2 MVPs.

I honestly feel that if a player has the talent as well as he proves to his teammates that he can make a major impact, he will eventually gain the respect of his teammates in order for him to eventually to become a leader. There's also that saying "One has to learn to lose, before he can learn to win" which I also think relates to being a leader. That player overcoming hardships and struggles throughout his life, while eventually overcoming these would be a huge example for his teammates.

I do think Bogut has a better chance than Yi because he doesn't have the language gap, as Yi does. However, the main factor is if either one of these players want to become leaders they are going to have to help their team win. Not to mention, there's always those labels that international players will always receive as well which is being "SOFT".

I think Yao Ming in particular is not seen as a leader because he's not very vocal as other players might be. Sure Yao Ming might be a great person and a teammate, but he seems to lack the aggression that people expect in both a leader and a big man. A similar example would be Lamar Odom, he was always projected to be a Top player in the league. He has put up great numbers at times, but he seems like he's missing something to take him to the top.


Not to mention culturally it's not part of Chinese basketball to play aggressive like they do here in the U.S., which goes back to the labels of being "SOFT". I do think Yi Jianlian has a perfect chance to help improve some of these issues, however Yi is going to have to live up to his expectations and probably exceed them too if he's looking to make a difference.


At the end of the day, if the player can be one of the top players and show the passion and heart as well being able to have great communication with his team...then I think being a leader is not out of the question.

[carmelbrownqueen]

LMAO @ Bobby Simmons.

Think about it.. remember prior to the season that even Bucksskinsfan mentioned how Bobby Simmons was voted a team captain by a majority of his teammates and for whatever reason (I don't recall what was stated it didn't happen) he wasn't given one of the tri-captain titles.

Bobby Simmons has very good natural leadership skills from everything I have been told, but he was also out one year, underacheived this year and was disgruntled with coaching and management, and disallowed to become the leader his teammates felt he was capable of being (officially that is). All of that contributed to him not taking on a more positive leadership role on this team even though he didn't have the official title. Seems as if Bobby might have withdrew from everyone to a certain extent and there wasn't another good natural leader available to take his place.

Everyone on this board seems to want Bogut to assume some leadership role that I'm not sure he is either ready for or has the skills to execute. It's a lot of work being a team leader.. and the amount of advanced social skills you have to have just to be that person haven't been demonstrated in Bogut since he was drafted by this team. Leadership is more than making candid comments in the media, getting double doubles, working hard in practice, and being declared the best player (by default or paycheck).. there's a lot of interpersonal communication stuff and other social skill based stuff that makes being a leader so much more than what most want to diminish it too on this board.

[MILILL]

Leadership can come from anyone in any form. You don't have to be the smartest, but you must be the most influential. Who would've thought that 'Sheed would be the leader on any team? But, if you got the right group of guys that have respect, and can have close friendships like Detroit does, then you can have a punk like 'Sheed (who by the way is one of my favorite players in the league) have that camaraderie and subsequent influence. It's hodge-podge. At the moment Bogut has that potential, but, not with this group. Bogut's asset of being a leader is setting an example of working hard and playing well.

I see Bogut being an affective leader with Kirk Hinrich or Ramon Sessions as PG. Other than that, I don't see it materializing for him as long as Moe and even Redd are around.

[UGA Hayes]

I think leadership is one of things you just have. Even though the media pretends its Tim Duncan I think it pretty obvious that Manu Ginobili an international has been the leader for the Spurs since even his rookie year.

Chris Paul is a leader, so is Steve Nash, and KG. None of them are particularly similar culturaly or in the way they lead but all hae a way of just knowing how to behave. I think its when you don't have "it" that people start parsing at cultural reasons etc.

[jerrod]

Everyone else selectively asserts themselves but don't have "it" that makes them someone everyone else wants to follow. It has nothing to do with race, culture or the team you are on...its 100% about how you interact with people. So even if Bogut was on the Sonics I don't think he would be the leader of that team..he will need to do more than just mature a bit and produce on the court to get that distinction.

i'm definitely not one of those "bogut must be the leader" people, but on the sonics he'd be one of the most productive players, would have been in the league 3 times as long as their stars and does seem to interact fairly well with most people. he also would have been on the top already so he and durant probably would have gotten along better than he and redd. that's just my line of thinking.

to clarify my other point, i meant that because you need everyone to not have those feelings for their to be absolutely no issues, and you only need 1 out of 12 to have those feelings for there to potentially be racial issues. so just statistically you'd think there would be issues fairly often