Debate about PFs - here's a laugh for you guys

[Debit One]

So I'm engaged in a debate on another board about the ability of 1980s era players to succeed in today's NBA. The guy I'm chatting with contends that today's players are so physically superior, through conditioning and diet, that the 1980s stars would be pedestrian players if not bench warmers in 2008.

The specific example that he is using is Kevin McHale, who he contends would not start for any NBA team. I am using the convenient example of the Milwaukee Bucks, and our PF tandem of CV/Yi, to counter his claim.

Here is the series of posts that will make you LOL.

Me: Let's start with a simple one. The two players who started games at PF for Milwaukee this season were Yi Jianlian and Charlie Villanueva. Are you telling me that Kevin McHale in his prime wasn't better than those two guys?

Him: I think Villanueva in particular would physically dominate McHale.

Me: This is quite laughable given that Villanueva is known for playing almost zero defense and chucking up jumpers.

Him: When he has to play against the brutes that populate the PF spot in the NBA, that's understandable. If a skinny wobbly dude like McHale took the court, I'm guessing he'd get a little more aggressive.

Yeah, I can see CV dominating McHale. Right.

[emunney]

All the evidence your friend needs is in the domination CV put on skinny, wobbly Garnett.

[paulpressey25]

I think there is more athleticism and team defense played today than 20-25 years ago.

That said, back then you had only 23 teams. To be a starter on a team really meant something. You had a ton of other good players pushing you hard, and that was just on your own squad, much less the league.

Guys on our squad like CV, Mo, Bobby, Dez probably don't start anywhere back in 1984.

[Epicurus]

Bob Pettit today would still be the best PF on the Bucks.

[smokinherb]

I understand where both of you are coming from. If you even look at Jordan's physique at age 23 compaired to those of Lebron, Dwayne Wade and Melo, he is definitely on the scrawny side. I think the difference is the passion that players of past eras exhibited. Physically, C-villy would beat McHale in every aspect of the game. But McHale's heart (not to mention Villaneuva's basketball iq is 0) and hustle would get him a spot on the team. If Mchale was in the NBA today he would be kinda like Eduardo Najera with a sick jumper. And you would have to believe that alot of the guys you mentioned would start on a team in the eighties. The game was much slower, and alot more defensive minded, but the sheer athleticism of a Desmond Mason would have had people calling him "Dr. Jr" very quickly

[Serge28]

[Whiteman]

That said, back then you had only 23 teams. To be a starter on a team really meant something. You had a ton of other good players pushing you hard, and that was just on your own squad, much less the league.

How many foreign players were in the NBA back then?

Right now there are 76 international players in the league. If I take a wild guess, that's probably about 60 more then in the mid-eighties. Sixty extra players on seven extra teams - the league really isn't all that watered-down.

[Serge28]

Poor, unathletic Tim Duncan going against the beasts of the NBA today and failing over and over again. Wait a second...

McHale was one of the best PFs to ever play with the best post game of All Time for a PF - that's right, even better than Duncan's. He would be dominant in today's league just like he was 20 years ago when he was winning championships for Boston.

[LUKE23]

Poor, unathletic Tim Duncan going against the beasts of the NBA today and failing over and over again. Wait a second...

McHale was one of the best PFs to ever play with the best post game of All Time for a PF - that's right, even better than Duncan's. He would be dominant in today's league just like he was 20 years ago when he was winning championships for Boston.

Disagree it was better than Duncan's (IMO Duncan is the best PF of all-time, and it's not because he athletically dominates people), but I agree with your overall point.

[Serge28]

I agree with you on Duncan being the best PF ever and I do think his post game is incredible, but I give McHale a slight edge there. Regardless though, the notion of him being an "Eduardo Najera with a sick jumper" or Mason being called Dr. J in the 80s is so utterly ridiculous that I had to comment.

[old skool]

Today's players are much stronger and faster. They are much more acrobatic around the basket. Today, players like McHale would be put on a year round weight program to build strength. He still would have been a good player, due to his hands and foot work. If KG played 25 years ago, he would have been a string bean, playing without the benefit of today's nutritional and weight training.

But the game was different when McHale came into the NBA. The 3-pt field goal was just becoming a part of the game. In 1979-80 there were only 11 NBA players who made more than 30% of their 3-pt attempts (25 attempts minimum). The premium was on taking shots closer to the basket when all FGs were worth 2 points. The inside game was more ferocious. The inside game could not accommodate high flying acrobatic players, because defenses protected the basket at all cost. Defenses gave up the perimeter shot rather than allow inside baskets.

In some ways, today's NBA rosters are diluted. Today, there are more young players who are not fully ready to compete in the NBA. On the other end of the age spectrum, today's multi-million dollar contracts motivate players to hang around past their prime.

The other factor was travel - much more of grind back then. NBA teams traveled by commercial train or plane. And games could be scheduled closer together. This put more of a premium on durability and toughness.

All of those conditions steered NBA rosters to a different type of player.

Of course, back then, NBA players were better at listening to their coach. They were better at fundamentals. It would be hard to imagine a team of 1980 NBA stars losing to todays Euro teams in the Olympics or World Championships.

oLd sKool

[rilamann]

Its impossible to compare todays players to past eras because the NBA has become so soft over the past 10-15 years.

In my opinion I do think players today are superior from a physical/athletic standpoint.

But players from past eras where much much superior from a skills and fundemental standpoint.

And lets not get it twisted,guys from past eras wernt exactly stiffs compared to todays NBA players.

Sure guys to today are bigger and quicker and can maybe jump a little higher but the difference between todays player and yesterdays player from an athletic standpoint isnt as big as some people think.

I think guys from past eras would be even better in todays NBA than in their own eras.

Serge made a great point bringing up Duncan because Duncan realy isnt all that gifted athleticly,yet he dominates and has been in contention for MVP every year he has played.

As for the Mchale vs CV haha.

If CV had to guard a prime Kevin Mchale for one 48 minute game I think everyone watching would question how CV even made it on to an NBA roster by the time the game was over.

[El Duderino]

I'd love to watch Villanueva have to guard McHale one on one for 40 minutes in a game. I think McHale could drop 70 points on CV.

[ReasonablySober]

I've never seen McHale play outside of clips.

So I have no idea how he'd do.

[europa]

Guys on our squad like CV, Mo, Bobby, Dez probably don't start anywhere back in 1984.

You can make a pretty strong argument that some - and maybe all - of them shouldn't be starting in 2008.

[gobbler]

That Kirilenko dude is huge. He'd injure McHale in about 5 minutes. Okay, he's a SF. And Dirk was just huge coming into the league. He obviously didn't need to go to the weight room to put on a bit of muscle. Chris Bosh and Marcus Camby are monsters too. Let's not forget Tyson Chandler.

Seriously, McHale was what 210-215? He could have put on the 20-25 pounds and been at the same weight as many of the PF's, not to mention centers in today's game. The truth is, that if a player was strong enough back when almost nobody lifted weights, he'd likely be strong enough now that everybody does.

[El Duderino]

I've never seen McHale play outside of clips.

So I have no idea how he'd do.

I'm old enough to have watched him in his prime. He was strong, long armed, and had as good a set of post moves as anyone to ever play the game.

If Villanueva had to guard McHale in his prime one on one in the post, he'd get absolutely destroyed. I actually would love to watch something like that if it was possible, it would be great entertainment.

It would be similar to say having TJ Ford trying to stop Billups one on one in the post, an absolute mismatch of epic proportions.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-




I'm old enough to have watched him in his prime. He was strong, long armed, and had as good a set of post moves as anyone to ever play the game.

If Villanueva had to guard McHale in his prime one on one in the post, he'd get absolutely destroyed. I actually would love to watch something like that if it was possible, it would be great entertainment.

It would be similar to say having TJ Ford trying to stop Billups one on one in the post, an absolute mismatch of epic proportions.

I don't doubt it. But come on...what NBA caliber PF wouldn't dominate Villanueva in the post if fed the ball enough?

[Nowak008]

If CV w/o a 3 point line would b really dangerous.

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't doubt it. But come on...what NBA caliber PF wouldn't dominate Villanueva in the post if fed the ball enough?

That's the point. If an NBA-caliber PF could dominate Villanueva; just think what one of the game's greatest PFs of all time would do against him.

Then again, maybe you shouldn't think about it. It's not a pretty picture.