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Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions

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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#201 » by europa » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:45 pm

Ill-yasova wrote:One player is five years older than the other. One is nearing the end of his prime, the other is entering the beginning of his prime. That's like running a race where one guy gets a 10 ft head start. i'm looking at things in the present tense. CV is just tapping his potential.


Perhaps he is. But that isn't the question. The point is one player prior to this season had been significantly better than the other at getting to the line. In my opinion (and if I'm alone here, that's fine), that has considerable value given how it not only can lead to points (not in the fourth quarter when Redd's at the line unfortunately) for your team but it can put key players on the opposing team in foul trouble. When I evaluate scorers, I place a greater value on the ones who can do that as opposed to the ones who typically cannot.

But again, maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#202 » by Ill-yasova » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:45 pm

JoeHova wrote:
msiris wrote:I hate that stat. :D In January when he started and played well he only averaged 7 per game.
In Feb he has only averaging 6.3 so far and he is playing a lot of minutes the last 2 months. I do not think he is a good rebounder for his size.


He appears to be a pretty good rebounder. Him and Dan are tied for 2nd on the team in rebounding percentage at 15.6%, meaning they get 15.6% of available rebounds when they are on the court. Bogut's at 19.6%, Mbah A Moute is 4th at 14.1%, Elson is at 13.5%, Allen is at 10.5%.

Just for comparison, among star PF/Cs who are rumored to be traded, Bosh is at 14.9%, Amare is at 12.9%, Jermaine O'Neal is at 14.2%, LaMarcus Aldridge is at 11.8%, Shawn Marion (though he's played mostly SF this year) is at 14.4%, Rasheed is at 13.3%.

Nice find.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#203 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:46 pm

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q37

Too long to post it in a quote, so you'll have to actually click on the link to read it.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#204 » by BDUB_30 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:47 pm

Bucks would be fools to even concider paying cv 8 mil per ..you just cant roll the dice like that at this point in the franchises history . We are at the point were we desperatly need to find something that isnt a gamble .


The simply fact that none of us really can say without a doubt what charlie v's market value is , nor are we even sure if his current team would retain him even at 6 millon speaks volumes as to how inconsitant his play has been over his tenure as a buck.


What we can do is look to some of the rumors and try to paint some kind of picture . Now im not saying Landry is trash , but i think we can say with more certainity what the market is for a player like Landry . Im sorry but i dont think landry is a 6 mil per year player , but in all truth , i would take landry on my team before cv because i know what im getting from landry night in and night out .


To add , from my perspective , their is guys in the nba that seem to shine when the light is always green for them . Truth being told , weve had many of those guys over the years . When you put these guys into an offenisve system / structure where exacution is at a premium , and shot selection has to be watched . They perform at a much lower rate . So yes , in a system as we have now and have had the past month , where their is no dicipline , and you can shoot 3 pointers with 19 seconds left on the 24 and the head coach doesnt have an option of sitting you on the bench , charlie will shine . Simlpy because their is no pressure . Put him in a structurized offense and you simply dont know what youre going to get because the green light is off .


At this point in time , after gambling on players that seemingly do well in offenses that have no structure ( ya know , basically shoot whenever the hell ya want , dont worry about finding a good shot , shoot early in the 24 ) ... no way in hell do I pay charlie , if his value is on the rise i trade him .. I still do the landry deal ..
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#205 » by msiris » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:47 pm

JoeHova wrote:
msiris wrote:I hate that stat. :D In January when he started and played well he only averaged 7 per game.
In Feb he has only averaging 6.3 so far and he is playing a lot of minutes the last 2 months. I do not think he is a good rebounder for his size.


He appears to be a pretty good rebounder. Him and Dan are tied for 2nd on the team in rebounding percentage at 15.6%, meaning they get 15.6% of available rebounds when they are on the court. Bogut's at 19.6%, Mbah A Moute is 4th at 14.1%, Elson is at 13.5%, Allen is at 10.5%.

Just for comparison, among star PF/Cs who are rumored to be traded, Bosh is at 14.9%, Amare is at 12.9%, Jermaine O'Neal is at 14.2%, LaMarcus Aldridge is at 11.8%, Shawn Marion (though he's played mostly SF this year) is at 14.4%, Rasheed is at 13.3%.
OK ok I will not bring it up again.:)
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#206 » by Ill-yasova » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:49 pm

europa wrote:
Ill-yasova wrote:One player is five years older than the other. One is nearing the end of his prime, the other is entering the beginning of his prime. That's like running a race where one guy gets a 10 ft head start. i'm looking at things in the present tense. CV is just tapping his potential.


Perhaps he is. But that isn't the question. The point is one player prior to this season had been significantly better than the other at getting to the line. In my opinion (and if I'm alone here, that's fine), that has considerable value given how it not only can lead to points (not in the fourth quarter when Redd's at the line unfortunately) for your team but it can put key players on the opposing team in foul trouble. When I evaluate scorers, I place a greater value on the ones who can do that as opposed to the ones who typically cannot.

But again, maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.

Different people place different values on different things. I would say that CV being +5-6 reb per game over Redd would make up for a what will probably in the future be a 1.5-2 freethrow per game differential.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#207 » by LUKE23 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:58 pm

Perhaps he is. But that isn't the question. The point is one player prior to this season had been significantly better than the other at getting to the line. In my opinion (and if I'm alone here, that's fine), that has considerable value given how it not only can lead to points (not in the fourth quarter when Redd's at the line unfortunately) for your team but it can put key players on the opposing team in foul trouble. When I evaluate scorers, I place a greater value on the ones who can do that as opposed to the ones who typically cannot.

But again, maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.


They are actually very close in getting to the line this year. Minutes have to be taken into account.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#208 » by smauss » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:06 pm

A 5 year deal for CV scares me!
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#209 » by europa » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:13 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
Perhaps he is. But that isn't the question. The point is one player prior to this season had been significantly better than the other at getting to the line. In my opinion (and if I'm alone here, that's fine), that has considerable value given how it not only can lead to points (not in the fourth quarter when Redd's at the line unfortunately) for your team but it can put key players on the opposing team in foul trouble. When I evaluate scorers, I place a greater value on the ones who can do that as opposed to the ones who typically cannot.

But again, maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.


They are actually very close in getting to the line this year. Minutes have to be taken into account.


This season, yes. Historically, no.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#210 » by El Duderino » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:26 pm

Nobody is going to offer Villanueva 10 million per year IMO, but if i'm wrong and somebody did, i'd have to let him walk.

My max levels on him would be 4yrs at 7-8 million per. Anything over that and i just wouldn't be comfortable matching an offer.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#211 » by LUKE23 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:28 pm

I'd probably agree with that. I'd match 8M per year or less.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#212 » by Ill-yasova » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:38 pm

+2
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#213 » by smauss » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:42 pm

El Duderino wrote:Nobody is going to offer Villanueva 10 million per year IMO, but if i'm wrong and somebody did, i'd have to let him walk.

My max levels on him would be 4yrs at 7-8 million per. Anything over that and i just wouldn't be comfortable matching an offer.


Yep. I know it wouldn't happen but I'd like a team option on the 4th.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#214 » by MilBucksBackOnTop06 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:46 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:For what it is worth, Woelfel was just on the radio this morning. Said he's talked to people with the Bucks in the last two days. They say Sessions will be kept. Said that the organization now sees the upside with him they didn't see six-weeks ago. Feels strongly he'll be here next year. Said these last five games have gotten the attention of management.

Also said that Redd hasn't picked out a surgeon yet, so until he actually has the surgery and they find out how his knee is, they won't know a recovery timetable.

What 'upside' have they seen that was not there 6 weeks ago!? :confused:

You either have it or you don't...sometimes. You should be able to see that right off with a guy like Sessions. Hard work can get you only so far at the point guard position.

This is unreal...more snap descisions and ill advised choices. No clue at all. Sessions is another Mo Williams.

Except Mo Williams is an All Star and is a better player surrounded around a Hall of Famer. Sessions is not surround around a hall of famer and teams will start to clamp down on him and shut him down!

We will pay and committ to another player prematurely who will not be a difference maker once the league adjusts unless there is marked improvements not just in his game but his genetic makeup.

You can learn certain things and get marginably better. But some things that you need are only God given like hops, quickness, physicality and athleticsim...

Sessions ceiling might not be as high as you think.

And since none of you can figure out if he is a point guard or off guard and what he can best do, we are in a situation where we just have a jack of all trades (Skiles: He is just a guard...) and a master of none.

We'll see.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#215 » by Max Green » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:06 pm

LOL @ comparing CV's best 2 months since he's been in the NBA against Redd's full season numbers. Ofcourse CV's numbers look great next to Redd's. Compare Redd's best month to CV's and I bet Redd has him beat in every category except for Rebounds.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#216 » by Mike X » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:15 pm

First half of the thread was some good stuff. Glad to see that m'ment have indicated that Sessions will be here. As for CV my willingness to keep him will be dictated by our draft position. If we get a high draft spot (which after the last couple of displays looks unlikely) and are in a position to draft Monroe, Hill etc then Im not as fussed if CV goes. If we dont pick till mid teens then CV has to be kept IMO


Second part of the thread reminded me of this cartoon.

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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#217 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:17 pm

DEAR JOHN HAMMOND-
TRADE RJ NOW PLEASE.
THANKS
Wut we've got here is... faaailure... to communakate.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#218 » by thetown » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:37 pm

emunney wrote:I was actually mistaken about the max salary part. It doesn't balloon out to cover the difference after the first two years. It balloons out as if the first two years were the max salary, so you still save that money off the max those first two years, but then the last three years would appear as if the first two years were also max. So it would be 2 MLE years followed by 3 max years, basically. Obviously anybody should correct me if I'm wrong.

The only things I'm 100% solid on is that Ramon can get a much bigger contract than the full MLE, and that the first two years of that deal (on a matched offer sheet) will be MLE 1st year, then MLE plus the maximum raise on the 2nd year.


Yeh - it's a weird little rule. Here's an illustration from coon's faq site for a team $11m under the cap that wants to offer a 5 year/55m contract:

Season Salary Notes
1 $5.0 million Average salary amount
2 $5.4 million 8% raise over season 1
3 $13.907m This is the amount that yields $44.6 million over the final three seasons with 6.9% raises*
4 $14.867m Raise is 6.9% of season 3 salary
5 $15.826m Raise is 6.9% of season 3 salary


Fortunately, the rule appears to favor us, as any increased salary over the MLE would come right when Redd/Gadz/RJ's contracts come off the books (thus minimizing luxury tax implications for us), and would probably scare other teams away from making a large offer because of the uncertainty of their cap situation two years from now.
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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#219 » by emunney » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:41 pm

Thanks thetown, that is in fact where I was getting my information.

I like this:

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Re: Woelfel on WSSP: Bucks to keep Sessions 

Post#220 » by Nebula1 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:40 am

emunney wrote:Thanks thetown, that is in fact where I was getting my information.

I like this:

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Hey, there's a 50% chance Jefferson is traded... sometimes.

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