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More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat"

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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#61 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:53 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:It would be nice of Redd to have his surgery so that Hammond might have some idea of how bad his knee is. Too much to ask Michael and Kevin Poston to hurry along I guess.

What does our salary look like for the 2010-2011 season? That is the year where you might see a sub 60 million luxury tax.

This team needs to position not just for next year but the following season.


He can't do it this week. He's got a big Christian event at UWM scheduled. Maybe on Friday he could have surgery ... :D
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#62 » by europa » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:53 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Do you honestly think fans would consistently pay to see a RJ/Redd led team fight its way to 43 wins on an annual basis? Hell no.



I don't think fans are going to come out and watch a Sessions and Villanueva led team either if it doesn't become a great team. I don't think most fans care who's on the team or who isn't at this point. They just want to see the Bucks become a good to very good team again and until that happens, I think this team is going to struggle with its attendance. If that happens with Redd and RJ leading the charge, I doubt anyone will give a rat's ass. The BC will be packing 'em in. If it happens with Ersan Ilyasova leading the way I doubt fans will care. They just want to see this team win consistently again. I think their patience is all dried up after more than two decades of mostly losing basketball.

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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#63 » by LUKE23 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:57 pm

I'll take the questions from here Luke, no need to lend a hand. How's that bullsh*t trade with Portland going? Is the sky falling yet?


It's going to be funny remembering this comment if the Portland deal doesn't go down, because the Bucks will not only miss the playoffs next year, they will miss it with very few young assets.

I don't think fans are going to come out and watch a Sessions and Villanueva led team either if it doesn't become a great team. I don't think most fans care who's on the team or who isn't at this point. They just want to see the Bucks become a good to very good team again and until that happens, I think this team is going to struggle with its attendance. If that happens with Redd and RJ leading the charge, I doubt anyone will give a rat's ass. The BC will be packing 'em in. If it happens with Ersan Ilyasova leading the way I doubt fans will care. They just want to see this team win consistently again. I think their patience is all dried up after more than two decades of mostly losing basketball.


Fans will always come to see a winning team. And by winning, I don't mean .500, I mean consistently winning 45+ regardless of who is on the roster. However, I think fans will come out to see young, unknown talent far before they will come to see veterans if you have a middling team. Look at the buzz in the BC right now with Sessions and CV stealing the show. I just think fans don't get excited about overpaid quasi-star veterans like Redd, they do get excited about young guys with potential.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#64 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:59 pm

I believe you can market anything, but this team as is, is not marketed very well. If the Bucks employed a strong campaign in this market behind this team, maybe we could look at the empty seats and draw a conclusion, but the marketing presence is so weak, how can you say? Yeah, it's on them to win some games, now.

If we had Ersan, Bucks marketing wouldn't do anything with him.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#65 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:09 pm

LUKE23 wrote: Look at the buzz in the BC right now with Sessions and CV stealing the show. I just think fans don't get excited about overpaid quasi-star veterans like Redd, they do get excited about young guys with potential.


Agreed. They haven't even bothered to market RJ all that much, and Ridnour not at all, though he's a human highlight film. Hammond needs to clean house down there in St Francis.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#66 » by InsideOut » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:12 pm

power4wardjinx wrote:
InsideOut wrote:8th seeds don't bring in new fans.

Yes, Skiles has a team he can work with if the goal is an 8th seed.

Kohl will not go over the tax. I don't blame him. You pay the tax for a contender not for an 8th seed team.


Wrong. 8th seeds do bring in fans and so do playoff games. The 2001-02 Bucks that set the BC attendance record did not even make the playoffs. It took years to build fan trust, and with this team, that starts now. They have to start building trust, something that willy-nilly trades for Portland's "paper" doesn't accomplish by any means.

Also, about a dozen teams are paying luxury tax this season, and they're not all contenders obviously.

If you stand pat and commit to your players and your coach, you build trust. And maybe you make the playoffs, which means you make $$. If a few luxury tax payments have to be made (and that would happen), so what? You've got huge insurance payments coming in to cover it and you start the season without any bullsh*t.

The Bucks standing pat are in a better position than most


Nope, you're still wrong. 8th seed in the NBA is a joke. How excited can you get over finishing will a losing record and in the bottom half of your conference? Maybe if your team is young and added a stud but that isn't the Bucks.

Standing pat doesn't build trust when you're standing pat with a group of guys that are about to average 29 wins over the past 3 seasons. The only trust that builds is trust in that you are going nowhere.

The Bucks standing pat are in a better position than most


Wow, I don't know what to say to that. Let's bring back a group of guys that averages 29 wins over 3 seasons, has a hurt max SG and is at the cap so we'll be losing players and yet we'd be better off than most? I guess I'm missing something here.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#67 » by europa » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:17 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Look at the buzz in the BC right now with Sessions and CV stealing the show.


That's a good idea. Let's take a look at that. Here is the paid attendance for the past four home games (three of them wins)

13,486
13,904
17,297
15,881

That's an average of 15,142. For the season, the Bucks are averaging 15,093 in attendance which ranks 26th in the league. A few more fans are coming out but that buzz you and Press keep talking about isn't translating into huge attendance totals. Maybe it will. Hopefully it does. But I am skeptical. I think young talent isn't going to bring in fans any more than guys like Redd or RJ. I think it's all about winning and winning consistently. Until that happens, I don't think many fans will care who's on the team and who isn't. I think the patience has run dry for many Bucks fans and they're tired of losing, no matter how allegedly exciting some of the young players on the team may be.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#68 » by LUKE23 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:20 pm

I was talking more atmosphere than paid attendance. The BC has been a funeral parlor most of the year, the last few games it's been pretty loud. Fans are having fun watching the current team, as am I.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#69 » by SupremeHustle » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:23 pm

You can't deny the atmosphere at the BC has been much better.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#70 » by europa » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:24 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I was talking more atmosphere than paid attendance. The BC has been a funeral parlor most of the year, the last few games it's been pretty loud. Fans are having fun watching the current team, as am I.


Fans are enjoying the victories as they should. And the Detroit game, despite being a defeat, was a near victory. I think fans would be just as excited if the Bucks had won those games with Redd and RJ leading the way. At least I sure hope they would. I'd have to question just how much of a fan someone really was if they didn't get excited about this team winning just because a player they didn't like was on it.

I still think most Bucks fans are tired of the losing and want to see a winner. Who's on the team and who isn't has become secondary. That's the case with all of the Bucks fans I know. Some like Redd. Some don't like Redd. None of them would complain for a second if this team was a contender with him. But that's just the Bucks fans I know. Maybe they don't represent the majority. I'd be disappointed if they didn't, though.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#71 » by InsideOut » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:25 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I was talking more atmosphere than paid attendance. The BC has been a funeral parlor most of the year, the last few games it's been pretty loud. Fans are having fun watching the current team, as am I.


And another way to look at those numbers is that more people are coming out to watch now that Redd and Bogut are out. Winning will always bring in more fans but change and hope go a long way in helping. No change (standing pat) for this team means little hope.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#72 » by LUKE23 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:26 pm

I don't think anyone would complain if we were a contender with Redd either. I just most think that's an impossibility given how much of the cap he eats, and I would agree with those people.

I'm talking all things equal here. Obviously, fans want a 45+ win team every year, no matter who is on the team. But if you're mediocre, I think fans are going to have more fun and are going to come out to see a younger, faster team over one where they just know there is no ceiling with.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#73 » by Ayt » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:26 pm

power4wardjinx wrote:
Ayt wrote:What huge insurance payments?


They start in November. By January, the Bucks would have a good chunk of Redd's salary, $5-6 million covered.


$5-6 million won't add very much. If they are over the luxury tax limit, they lose roughly $3 million in luxury tax payouts. Add the dollar for dollar matching for a team over the limit, and that $5-6 million adds only $1-1.5 million in actual salary being added if you want to break even.

Besides that, you are in dreamland if you think Kohl is going to choose now of all times to be willing to pay the luxury tax when he never has in the past. We are really to believe that a mediocre team that will have to fight to even make the playoffs combined with a huge, worldwide recession are the conditions under which Kohl would finally decide to pay the luxury tax?
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#74 » by fam3381 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:27 pm

power4wardjinx wrote:
fam3381 wrote:
So you're assuming Redd misses all of next season? I assume you took 80% x $17.04 million = $13.6 million. We don't get anything for this year obviously, and the first six games of next year also wouldn't be covered (he's missing the final 35 this year).

My understanding is the payments stop as soon as Redd comes back, though if he then misses more games because of the knee then they're covered at the same rate. So my assumption is we probably wouldn't get half of the $13.6 million figure unless Redd's rehab runs into major complications. Maybe I'm missing something?


Your assumption is correct. Assuming the Bucks get half of it by shelving him, they've covered the luxury tax problem.


So are you now agreeing that we'd be lucky to get half the $14 million number you originally suggested?

power4wardjinx wrote:Also, luxury isn't lump sum payment, is it? No. I presented it that the way to simplify. October and November they make luxury tax payments, November they collect some insurance money for Redd, and so it goes. Meanwhile, Hammond could make a trade July- February 2010 that could alleviate the situation. The key is to balance it all by making sure that Redd stays shelved long enough to receive a good benefit.


The luxury tax is assessed at the end of the season, so if we are over it in November we're not paying anything. We wouldn't get a bill for it until April 2010 if my understanding of it is correct, and I assume it is a lump sum payment.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#75 » by europa » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I'm talking all things equal here. Obviously, fans want a 45+ win team every year, no matter who is on the team. But if you're mediocre, I think fans are going to have more fun and are going to come out to see a younger, faster team over one where they just know there is no ceiling with.


I think the problem is most Bucks fans have been sold a bill of goods. They've been promised that young talent would lead the way when the reality is at only one period in the last two decades has that young talent amounted to anything. They've heard the promises of T.J. Ford and Andrew Bogut and Charlie Villanueva and Mo Williams and Yi Jinlian and there hasn't been a single winning season to show for any of it. So I don't think most Bucks fans will clamor out to see young players just because they're young. They want to see this team win and until it wins consistently I think attendance is going to be a struggle for this team. Unfulfilled promises and potential over the course of 20+ years has taken the wind out of a lot fans' sails in my opinion.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#76 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:44 pm

InsideOut wrote:
The Bucks standing pat are in a better position than most


Wow, I don't know what to say to that. Let's bring back a group of guys that averages 29 wins over 3 seasons, has a hurt max SG and is at the cap so we'll be losing players and yet we'd be better off than most? I guess I'm missing something here.


RJ, Sessions, Mbah a Moute and Ridnour were around for the previous Redd-ite failures? Half the rotation is new and, currently, the two Charlies are the only players active that can be tagged with the 110 losses of the 07 and 08 teams. It's not the same group at all, especially with Redd out. And, what, you've got them pegged for 33 wins already?

This is a new team with a new coach. Let's see how this plays out. They don't have to conquer the World -- all they have to do is beat the Nets and the Bulls.

And who says we're losing anybody? Insurance for Redd = luxury tax payments. It's easy.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#77 » by LUKE23 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:46 pm

We're losing CV and the 2009 first if no moves are made. Please stop glossing over this.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#78 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:09 pm

fam3381 wrote:
power4wardjinx wrote:
fam3381 wrote:
So you're assuming Redd misses all of next season? I assume you took 80% x $17.04 million = $13.6 million. We don't get anything for this year obviously, and the first six games of next year also wouldn't be covered (he's missing the final 35 this year).

My understanding is the payments stop as soon as Redd comes back, though if he then misses more games because of the knee then they're covered at the same rate. So my assumption is we probably wouldn't get half of the $13.6 million figure unless Redd's rehab runs into major complications. Maybe I'm missing something?


Your assumption is correct. Assuming the Bucks get half of it by shelving him, they've covered the luxury tax problem.


So are you now agreeing that we'd be lucky to get half the $14 million number you originally suggested?

power4wardjinx wrote:Also, luxury isn't lump sum payment, is it? No. I presented it that the way to simplify. October and November they make luxury tax payments, November they collect some insurance money for Redd, and so it goes. Meanwhile, Hammond could make a trade July- February 2010 that could alleviate the situation. The key is to balance it all by making sure that Redd stays shelved long enough to receive a good benefit.


The luxury tax is assessed at the end of the season, so if we are over it in November we're not paying anything. We wouldn't get a bill for it until April 2010 if my understanding of it is correct, and I assume it is a lump sum payment.


Frank, I put out $14 insurance/$90 salary to simplify things, and said I didn't know what the payment schedule is. Yeah, it would be great to get back half of Redd's 80%, and that's $6.8 mill in the senator's pockets.

Luxury tax: if you are right about the payment schedule -- no wonder so many teams are over!!! Teams can run the debt and just shed it in February. Hell, the way to do it would be to bill monthly or quarterly, which is great news for the Bucks.

So are the teams billed for the months they are over but not the months when, let's say a trade is made or something, that they are under?

The Bucks can then go over the lux tax threshold to sign Sessions and CV, not pay a dime in tax for it, pocket Redd's insurance to help cover payroll, then make a trade NEXT february to get under, and then ... would they then be billed in 2011 for ending the 2010 fiscal year (June 30) for being over?

That's it, right? If you're over on June 30 you get billed. The new fiscal year starts July 1. In essence, the Bucks can collect insurance dough on Redd (a la Washington Wizards and Gilbert Arenas), be over the cap, pocket all millions of dough, and not have to worry about the tax bill for a year and a half, if not two years.

So, in essence then, the situation is that, as I said, payroll impact is $76 mill-plus next season, and the main issue is whether or not the Bucks can make enough at the gate to make it worth doing. I think with a healthy Bogut, this team as is will contend for home court next year. Redd can come off the bench when he's ready, say, in February or March.

There's no crisis here. Just float the luxury tax with the insurance payments. Simple. And we keep CV and Sessions.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#79 » by power4wardjinx » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:15 pm

LUKE23 wrote:We're losing CV and the 2009 first if no moves are made. Please stop glossing over this.


That's simply not true. Read the thread. What we've just discovered is that the Senator will collect the insurance on Redd and the Bucks will have all of this season, possible playoffs, all of next season and playoffs next season to fill the coffers before the league even bills the Bucks for the luxury tax.

There is no problem here. Stand pat and they rise in the East next season. Who knows what's going to happen in Detroit. Those guys in Boston never miss games ... that'll end soon (hopefully not this season), etc., etc.

Don't manufacture a problem where one doesn't exist. The key here is to continue to get Scott Skiles-type players in Bucks uniforms. There is no reason to panic and do something dumb before the THursday deadline.
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Re: More Stupidity From Hunt: "Bucks Should Stand Pat" 

Post#80 » by old skool » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:03 pm

The problem is not just the luxury tax limit. It is also that NBA revenues are plunging. Ticket sales are down and the tickets that are selling are often heavily discounted. With fewer fans in attendance, there is less coming in for parking and concessions. Eventually fewer fans makes it more difficult to sell advertising in the BC, and makes it harder to attract sponsor partners.

I don't see the insurance policy on Redd as being a savior. It helps protect the Bucks against a devastating injury, but it is not "extra" money. There is no reason to think that the Bucks will not want to pocket any insurance AND avoid the luxury tax. And if the tax limit is going to be down in 2009-10, and down even more in 2010-11 as many have projected, then the Bucks need to save every dollar they can. The economics of pro basketball are changing, and the Bucks need to change with the rest of the league in order to survive.

This is one of the few opportunities when Bucks management knows that NBA teams will be making deals to either shed salary or improve their roster. The trade deadline creates an urgency in the market. Teams understand the importance of choosing from the best deals being offered, or they wait until the off season. If the Bucks were the only team looking to lower payroll, this trade deadline would not be as important as it is. But there are many teams looking to lower their payroll. More than there are teams looking to add payroll. Astute GMs will recognize that it might be much easier to shed payroll now than it will be next summer, or next February.

Ignoring the importance of this trade period could be a major mistake.

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