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2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011)

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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#81 » by TSE » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:45 pm

Rodya wrote:^ how so?


Cause any time you pay a guy more than 5 million dollars you are making a serious investment and you are changing the entire landscape of your team. If we have all that money then we can sign 2 big time FA defensemen this year if we want, and have those 2 critical spots filled for the future with 2 very good players. Now we won't be able to do that, so to move on from Lidstrom is going to take an additional year for his spot to be replaced, and there's no guarantee that the options will be as good as they are now. We are risking replacing him later at a more expensive rate and to get a worse player than we can get now. And it's a small price to pay to not use him this year considering the 2nd guy we would sign would likely have a higher percentage of matching up to Lidstrom's value than the guy we get next year to replace him, and I see millions going to a guy who will be gone next year, and I'd rather have that money go to players who for sure are going to stick around. A portion of his value will be lost forever as a value to the franchise as we are not efficiently managing our resources here in this regard.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#82 » by ajaX82 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:40 am

Nick just won the Norris again. Definitely not worth 6 million
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#83 » by Rodya » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:09 pm

TSE wrote:Cause any time you pay a guy more than 5 million dollars you are making a serious investment and you are changing the entire landscape of your team. If we have all that money then we can sign 2 big time FA defensemen this year if we want, and have those 2 critical spots filled for the future with 2 very good players. Now we won't be able to do that...


Please name me the two defensemen, out of this year's free-agency pool, that you would rather invest multi-year contracts into rather than have a Norris Trophy winning captain back on an expiring contract? This free-agency pool is weak, especially amongst defensemen. Lidstrom re-signing is a blessing - we get an amazing player, who also is our team's captain, back on a one year deal. Allowing us to have immense cap-flexibility next offseason.

TSE wrote:so to move on from Lidstrom is going to take an additional year for his spot to be replaced, and there's no guarantee that the options will be as good as they are now. We are risking replacing him later at a more expensive rate and to get a worse player than we can get now.


This is purely ridiculous. First of all, we have a couple of the best defensive prospects in the league in Kindl and Smith. It is true that I've been praying for a hard nosed defenseman for years now, but that individual isn't available in this free-agency class. You say that there's no guarantee that the options will be better next offseason, but a simple glance at next years crop suggests the contrary. Also, how did you come up with the conclusion that next year we'll have to pay at a higher rate for a free-agent? With greater overall talent next year's offseason, it would seem to suggest the competition would bring the rate down.


TSE wrote:And it's a small price to pay to not use him this year considering the 2nd guy we would sign would likely have a higher percentage of matching up to Lidstrom's value than the guy we get next year to replace him...

There is absolutely no basis for this assumption, no offense, but it's bordering on nonsensical.


TSE wrote:and I see millions going to a guy who will be gone next year, and I'd rather have that money go to players who for sure are going to stick around.


I don't want "that guy" sticking around for more than a year, I want this norris cup winner and a competent one year rental so we can be players in a much stronger free-agency class next year. That is why I was a big proponent of offering one year deals to Markov, Foote, Jovanovski, Salo, Hamrlik, etc. Who, most of which we would be able to sign along with Lidstrom.

When I asked "how so?", I didn't mean for you to give me a more vague restatement of your previous posts. Please give examples and be precise with your qualms against resigning the reigning Norris Trophy winner.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#84 » by TSE » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:09 am

ajaX82 wrote:Nick just won the Norris again. Definitely not worth 6 million


He won it based on last year's work, and we paid him last year for that work. Next year is a completely different analysis.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#85 » by TSE » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:11 am

Rodya wrote:
Please name me the two defensemen.


Any of the previous top FA's that I discussed previously I'd rather have. And not because I think they are better players than him, that is not the point. I want them because they have more overall that they can add, and one year out of Lidstrom isn't worth nearly as much to me as it is to you. What's so complex to understand about this perspective?
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#86 » by Mr Swagtastic » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:29 pm

TSE wrote:
ajaX82 wrote:Nick just won the Norris again. Definitely not worth 6 million


He won it based on last year's work, and we paid him last year for that work. Next year is a completely different analysis.


I would bet you anything he's up there again. Name me 3 better d-man right now we could have have a legit shot at that can even come close to Nik? Shea Webber looks like he will be locked up by the Preds and Markov is off the table and even at 3 years people are saying it's iffy.

I don't see how you can say that $6 million is bad for a top 3 d-man of all-time and arguably the best defensemen in the last 10-15 years. You better believe #5 is going to be retired someday and I will be at the game when it does. Yes I would have loved to see him get a cheaper deal to open more money up but as of right now were not a major player and who are we going to go after Brad "freaking" Richard's and offer him a 8 year deal at $7-$8 million per year to be a 2nd line C no thank you to that!
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#87 » by TSE » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:56 pm

Look, we didn't win with Lidstrom last year, and we weren't even close to as good as my standards and expectations were set for this team. We need to make changes with the team and we don't have the affordability to give 6+ million dollars out for Lidstrom to have one more year, if we have other offseason moves that end up changing the makeup of the team, then maybe the dynamics are different that I feel differently about this move, but as this team stands right now, I just don't believe this is a smart decision, I think it's a poor decision. There's no reason he couldn't play here for 5 million too, we'd still have the player what do you care if he gets 5 or 6? It's not about him being better than other players cause he always is better than just about everybody, but one more year out of him isn't going to do anything special for us, as we just saw by playing with this team last year.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#88 » by ajaX82 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:49 am

Bieksa is out of the picture, as is Markov

We are not in good shape to be getting decent FAs right now
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#89 » by TSE » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:09 pm

There's still Kaberle and Pitkanen and Wisniewski and Ehrhoff.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#90 » by Mr Swagtastic » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:22 pm

TSE wrote:There's still Kaberle and Pitkanen and Wisniewski and Ehrhoff.


Well if NHLNumbers.com is right we have $17 million or so in cap space. Out of those names I take James Wisniewski before anybody else. Yes he's a gambler on defense but he can hit when he wants to do so. Plus Joni Pitkanen has resigned with the 'Canes so he's off the maket. I think I would rather take a risk on a couple of wingers maybe reach out to Simon Gagne, Alex Korlev (cheap like $2-$3 million) or see if we could get Eric Cole here at a good price and maybe see if Marek Savatos wants to come here. He would be a good 3rd line winger for under $1.5 million a year to give us a goal scorer and good skater.

It's going to be a great Canada Day to say the least, a nice cottage at Muskoka Woods, BBQ, Ice Cold Drinks and all the sports I can handle. Really hope we are early players at name at least 1 good name and hopefully don't overpay for Teemu right now
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#91 » by TSE » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:33 am

Pitkanen is gone
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#92 » by ajaX82 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:44 am

Islanders traded for Ehrhoffs rights. If he goes we are getting mighty low on choices
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#93 » by Mr Swagtastic » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:23 pm

Yeah looking like the field is thinning out quite a bit I still think that Cole and Svatos would be solid picks here or a cheap gamble on Korlev but I have a feeling the Pens will peruse him if they get Jagr
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#94 » by TSE » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:19 pm

Good thing we got Lidstrom.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#95 » by ajaX82 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:56 am

TSE wrote:Good thing we got Lidstrom.


You crack me up if you aren't being sarcastic. I can't tell though



Wisniewski's rights traded to Columbus

I feel like we are going to be resigning ole Jonathon...
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#96 » by TSE » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:45 am

Well in the last week the majority of the big name D-players have been locked up or traded away, and that's new information that changes the nature of what our options are.

Now i would be more interested in targeting a D-player by trade or looking at some offensive free agents, and trading away players and prospects to get a guy like Weber or Chara. It might also be a good idea to go after a goalie option like a Boucher or Nabokov....or Hasek.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#97 » by ajaX82 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:44 pm

TSE wrote:Well in the last week the majority of the big name D-players have been locked up or traded away, and that's new information that changes the nature of what our options are.

Now i would be more interested in targeting a D-player by trade or looking at some offensive free agents, and trading away players and prospects to get a guy like Weber or Chara. It might also be a good idea to go after a goalie option like a Boucher or Nabokov....or Hasek.


:roll:

You spent the last few pages arguing how bringing back Lidstrom was a huge mistake. You silly
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#98 » by TSE » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:15 pm

ajaX82 wrote:
TSE wrote:Well in the last week the majority of the big name D-players have been locked up or traded away, and that's new information that changes the nature of what our options are.

Now i would be more interested in targeting a D-player by trade or looking at some offensive free agents, and trading away players and prospects to get a guy like Weber or Chara. It might also be a good idea to go after a goalie option like a Boucher or Nabokov....or Hasek.


:roll:

You spent the last few pages arguing how bringing back Lidstrom was a huge mistake. You silly


No, I didn't say bringing him back was a mistake, I just disputed the dollar amount. Besides, previously I didn't expect all these big names to come off the market, so it could have been the case that I didn't even want him on the team but only to change my mind after hearing this additional news which changes the situation. That's not the case though as I've even posted on this board that I thought he should be back with the team just a couple months ago when we talked about it the last time. And the magnitude of what I consider to be an overpayment just becomes sliced down because there is less lost value that I previously ascribe now that the market of players at his position has lowered in value significantly and in greater proportion to that of the other available FAs.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#99 » by TSE » Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:32 am

Wings signed Ian White and Mike Commodore. Oh joy. Those guys suck compared to Rafalski. What a disappointing downgrade and a waste of money.
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Re: 2012 Off-Season (formerly 2011) 

Post#100 » by Mr Swagtastic » Mon Jul 4, 2011 6:41 pm

Ian White isn't that bad he could be a good player for us. I am not sure how much money is left to sign guys to balance the roster or what but those 2 guys are good depth to have
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