Memphis at Minnesota game thread 11-30-2022

[Devilzsidewalk]

I’m super off the KAT train.

You know who’s the real cat on this team?

Edwards!

One big is enough.

Two and you’re bottling up Ant.

Give me the better defending big every time.

One of the wolves fans I sat next to had a great counter to the Ant "With two big guys out there it's hard to get dunks" argument. Before the modern era guys like Kobe, Shaq, Carter, etc. managed to do work in the paint with two traditional bigs. It's a pretty weak excuse. It's on the team and scheme to make it easier or Ant there.

Imo, it’s really hard to do when only one of your bigs is a defender. Karl is a one way street. It’s gonna be ok. Karl is likely the guy we move but probably not for awhile. In the meantime, he gets to watch us (hopefully win a bunch) and learn how to fit in more on D. Again, the O isn’t a big deal to me. It’s the D where we need more quickness and flexibility. Karl out one game and we turned them over like crazy.

I've honestly been disappointed with his defense the most out of anything. I was always of the mind that they should try him more at the 4 because his interior defense has been so weak and he's relatively athletic. I was thinking he might be able to use his length to take away perimeter shot a little, and then have enough footspeed and size to recover and challenge drives, but he just seems oblivious to good defensive fundamentals. His defensive stance is so high and off-balance. And his shot contests are just bad - he swings his whole arm violently like he's swinging a tennis racket. It's just such basic stuff - not getting low and locked in to explosively move laterally on the perimeter, and not getting straight and tall enough to contest when he's on the inside.

[Biff Cooper]

Didn't sleep Tuesday night, so I fell asleep at halftime of this one. Moore looked a lot quicker than I remember him being.

[younggunsmn]

The primary issue isn't Towns defensively, it's pretty clear that the biggest issue the team has is that Anthony Edwards and D'Angelo Russell get lost when they are tasked with helping or containing. It leads to a (seemingly) infinite amount of breakdowns, in large part because they mess up whenever the scheme is transitioned back-and-forth.

There is an argument that running two schemes is too complicated because Minnesota's personel isn't competent enough to run it, but it isn't fair to pin that exclusively (or even primarily) on Karl-Anthony Towns.

Russell is the teams worst defender, but Towns' bad defense hurts the team the most because of his importance to the franchise.
You can't hide both players, and its harder to hide a 7 footer's bad defense.

Modern pick and roll defense requires both players to be on the same page and for the help defenders to do their job.
It's easy to point fingers, but a smart team is going to try to anticipate and take away what the other team is trying to do.
We blew up so many pick and rolls tonight that didnt look like much simply by taking away the side the guard wanted to go to and kept them from getting to the rim by taking good angles.

KAT's biggest problem is that his fundamentals are so bad and he has SO MUCH really bad muscle memory that he can't get rid of.
It's why sometimes it seems his hands and feet don't seem to know what they are doing.
As a lanky guy with huge feet it's going to be harder for him than for others.
The hooks, the leg kick-out, the swatting at shots like he is playing volleyball. His terrible defensive stance.
His inability to slide laterally and make himself wide to wall off drives.
He really could benefit from a lot of repetitive drills. When I was a teenager the first 45 minutes of practice use to be nothing but drills, slide drills, hand drills, footwork drills, dribbling. It taught good muscle memory.

It's a problem with today's young players who are singled out as special at such a young age and don't go through traditional programs but instead a never ending series of talent showcases.
They spend so much time working on their offense, shooting and ball skills (and KAT deserves praise for developing that) because that's their ticket to the show. But when they get there, many lack that important muscle memory of good habits that can only come with a lot of hard work.

[Klomp]

Keeping it real, people are smoking crack about Towns. There is a fair discussion about "what could the team acquire in exchange for him that would make them better than they are now?" but they absolutely aren't better by default without him.

I think we should remember that Towns generally cooks Memphis, this is just a team that Minnesota seems to match up with well.

The problem with Towns is that while he's very talented, it's not in the team's best interest to build everything around him. I feel like if he committed to being Celtics' Ray Allen, this team could be so dynamic it's scary. I know it's a disservice to his talent level but I fear building around him is a disservice to the rest of the current roster.

This is what I don’t get. Who said it has to be one or the other? If Ant had made the leap it would be Ant’s team. Instead he is inconsistent and slower on the path then we thought so it is KAT’s team. Do you think Curry wins all those rings with Klay? What about Durant? He got two without Durant, but only 2 and very far apart. Gobert is a phenom. He doesn’t simply block shots, he is like a one man paint repellent. Of course if every team shoots 50% from outside your doomed, but that isn’t a function of KAT or Rudy or twin towers, it is a function of the defense as a whole. KAT, Ant, and Rudy is a mega talented big 3. You can say it is built on KAT’s timeline, or built around KAT, but Ant is here to. Ant struggles going inside not because bigs are taking away his space (that was happening when Rudy and KAT were both on the bench,) but rather because teams are defending him differently, and because his handle isn’t elite. Ant loses the ball too much. All in all, this is built for Ant and KAT, and Ant needs to rise to the challenge every night.

This has nothing to do with timelines. I'm not even saying here to trade him. This is about skill sets and mentalities.

He tries so hard to be "the guy". He needs to take over the game because he's "the guy". He thinks he should get all the foul calls because he's "the guy". He thinks he needs to say something to Ant about Popeyes because he's "the guy". In the modern NBA, it is very difficult for "the guy" to be a post player, especially when that player's most redeeming quality is his outside shot but he ignores it for drives and bully ball.

Sometimes, I feel like Towns thinks he's prime Shaq. I just wish he had more of a mindset of Boston Garnett on offense sometimes.

[Devilzsidewalk]

The primary issue isn't Towns defensively, it's pretty clear that the biggest issue the team has is that Anthony Edwards and D'Angelo Russell get lost when they are tasked with helping or containing. It leads to a (seemingly) infinite amount of breakdowns, in large part because they mess up whenever the scheme is transitioned back-and-forth.

There is an argument that running two schemes is too complicated because Minnesota's personel isn't competent enough to run it, but it isn't fair to pin that exclusively (or even primarily) on Karl-Anthony Towns.

Russell is the teams worst defender, but Towns' bad defense hurts the team the most because of his importance to the franchise.
You can't hide both players, and its harder to hide a 7 footer's bad defense.

Modern pick and roll defense requires both players to be on the same page and for the help defenders to do their job.
It's easy to point fingers, but a smart team is going to try to anticipate and take away what the other team is trying to do.
We blew up so many pick and rolls tonight that didnt look like much simply by taking away the side the guard wanted to go to and kept them from getting to the rim by taking good angles.

KAT's biggest problem is that his fundamentals are so bad and he has SO MUCH really bad muscle memory that he can't get rid of.
It's why sometimes it seems his hands and feet don't seem to know what they are doing.
As a lanky guy with huge feet it's going to be harder for him than for others.
The hooks, the leg kick-out, the swatting at shots like he is playing volleyball. His terrible defensive stance.
His inability to slide laterally and make himself wide to wall off drives.
He really could benefit from a lot of repetitive drills. When I was a teenager the first 45 minutes of practice use to be nothing but drills, slide drills, hand drills, footwork drills, dribbling. It taught good muscle memory.

It's a problem with today's young players who are singled out as special at such a young age and don't go through traditional programs but instead a never ending series of talent showcases.
They spend so much time working on their offense, shooting and ball skills (and KAT deserves praise for developing that) because that's their ticket to the show. But when they get there, many lack that important muscle memory of good habits that can only come with a lot of hard work.

Re-watching the game, it really stuck out how clean Kyle Anderson's rotations were on so many possessions, and he was getting some really tight shot contests. Probably he also benefitted from knowing Memphis' scheme and personnel so well, and maybe was a little fired up too to show up against his former team, but overall I think his ability to read the entire floor has gotta be one of the absolute best in the league. And while he's physically a "slow mo", his reaction time and decisiveness seem top notch.

And at the 5 too - as frustrating it is at how non-impactful Naz can be banging in the paint, he's super light on his feet. He looks really excellent moving around in space. And he'll show active hands defending off ball too.

So those are 2 guys who have physical weaknesses, but they also have strengths in certain areas. SloMo is, well, kinda slow, but he's smart, decisive, and active with his positioning. Naz gets bullied inside on the glass and against bigger centers he can fall apart, but in space, he's impressively quick, and he offers some solid rim protection as a help defender.

Bringing it back to KAT - it makes me wonder what exactly KAT can do to make an impact. He doesn't have Rudy's paint defense, Naz' light feet, or Kyle's ability to read the floor, but he has enough athleticism, size, and experience to where he should be able to bring a little of each. I have to wonder what the MN coaching staff has been doing over the years, because it shouldn't be this possible to be so defensively non-recognizant (not sure that's a word) after 7 years of NBA life. As a rim defender specifically, he might even have gotten a little worse than he was his first few seasons. Those last 2 years under Thibs playing with Taj and Gorgui were probably his peak as a paint presence. He kinda fell off after that.

[Nick K]

The problem with Towns is that while he's very talented, it's not in the team's best interest to build everything around him. I feel like if he committed to being Celtics' Ray Allen, this team could be so dynamic it's scary. I know it's a disservice to his talent level but I fear building around him is a disservice to the rest of the current roster.

This is what I don’t get. Who said it has to be one or the other? If Ant had made the leap it would be Ant’s team. Instead he is inconsistent and slower on the path then we thought so it is KAT’s team. Do you think Curry wins all those rings with Klay? What about Durant? He got two without Durant, but only 2 and very far apart. Gobert is a phenom. He doesn’t simply block shots, he is like a one man paint repellent. Of course if every team shoots 50% from outside your doomed, but that isn’t a function of KAT or Rudy or twin towers, it is a function of the defense as a whole. KAT, Ant, and Rudy is a mega talented big 3. You can say it is built on KAT’s timeline, or built around KAT, but Ant is here to. Ant struggles going inside not because bigs are taking away his space (that was happening when Rudy and KAT were both on the bench,) but rather because teams are defending him differently, and because his handle isn’t elite. Ant loses the ball too much. All in all, this is built for Ant and KAT, and Ant needs to rise to the challenge every night.

Towns just need to keep his head in the game and play better. Maybe try Simmons' 3 min meditation method instead of watching gorilla caged fight. There is no need to build around any one player. Look at the Cavs - Did they build around Mitchell, Garland or Allen? There is more room and shots available for him in the winning way. He needs to find them himself.

Absolutely right.

Rudy Gobert is the one who needs to play substantially better. I have not been impressed. He mostly doesn't look like the guy I've seen in the past.

[Jailblazers7]

Yeah, I think the big problem with KAT is that he’s both slow and undisciplined. You can only be one of those things defensively. Thinking Basketball had a good breakdown highlighting how KAT is causing problems because he doesn’t communicate well, loses focus, and forces the team to mix PnR coverages causing confusion. That’s especially problematic because Edwards is prone to mistakes so mixing coverages depending on whether Rudy or KAT’s man is screening is a recipe for disaster.

If Wendell Moore plays well with KAT out, I’d be tempted to bench DLo in favor of an Ant/Moore/McDaniels/KAT/Rudy lineup. That way you get more length and athleticism on the floor for defensive rotations while betting Ant/KAT can keep the offense afloat. I don’t think Ant is ready for that level of ball handling responsibility but I’m not sure if there’s a better answer.

[life_saver]

We were on a 5 game win streak just last week with KAT starting..just because they won 1 game doesn't mean the team is better without KAT..biggest problem is the inconsistencies of the guards. Nowell has some great games like this but then follows it up with 2 poor shooting games. Same applies to DLo who is inconsistent af.

[Calinks]

I think KAt played his best defense last year in the high wall. He looked most comfortable coming out to meet other bigs and sometimes step up to peremiter players. He was energized and he was a big part of creating turnovers last season. That seemed to be his optimal spot but I don't know if we can do that with Rudy.

[winforlose]

I think KAt played his best defense last year in the high wall. He looked most comfortable coming out to meet other bigs and sometimes step up to peremiter players. He was energized and he was a big part of creating turnovers last season. That seemed to be his optimal spot but I don't know if we can do that with Rudy.

High wall is a broken concept. It got shredded last year and again this year. The problem is that when Rudy is on the bench and KAT runs out to trap anyone, the opposing big rolls to the rim. The way to fix it was with Rudy. To let Rudy play positionless basketball, always guarding the non shooter. Meanwhile KAT can play the C and defend in space. But that didn’t happen. Also, the non shooters always seem to make their 3s against us. But, if in the high wall Ant or Dlo don’t scramble to cover the paint then run out to the corner the opposing team will score at will. Neither has shown the will to play with the same fire as last year. Finch has failed thus far to motivate guys. That doesn’t mean he cannot turn it around, just that he has not got guys engaged through 22.

[Klomp]

We were on a 5 game win streak just last week with KAT starting..just because they won 1 game doesn't mean the team is better without KAT..biggest problem is the inconsistencies of the guards. Nowell has some great games like this but then follows it up with 2 poor shooting games. Same applies to DLo who is inconsistent af.

We have said all offseason that the ceiling of this team this season is dependent on one player: Anthony Edwards. Meanwhile, Edwards has repeatedly said he prefers playing with only one big man in the paint. And the proof is in the pudding on the court too. Heck, even Gobert is saying he likes defending with four guys out on the perimeter rather than tag-teaming with another post. Keeping Towns in the paint and revolving the offense around him while having him defend in the paint as well might raise the team's floor somewhat, but it limits the ceiling because of the impact it has on other players.

[winforlose]

We were on a 5 game win streak just last week with KAT starting..just because they won 1 game doesn't mean the team is better without KAT..biggest problem is the inconsistencies of the guards. Nowell has some great games like this but then follows it up with 2 poor shooting games. Same applies to DLo who is inconsistent af.

We have said all offseason that the ceiling of this team this season is dependent on one player: Anthony Edwards. Meanwhile, Edwards has repeatedly said he prefers playing with only one big man in the paint. And the proof is in the pudding on the court too. Heck, even Gobert is saying he likes defending with four guys out on the perimeter rather than tag-teaming with another post. Keeping Towns in the paint and revolving the offense around him while having him defend in the paint as well might raise the team's floor somewhat, but it limits the ceiling because of the impact it has on other players.

Ant makes a lot of excuses, but has the same trouble when KAT, Rudy, or both are on the bench. Opponents are packing the paint and daring us to shoot from outside more. Ant has handle problems, finishing inconsistency, and a hero ball mode that borders on (I need my numbers regardless of whether we win, or worse “I would rather lose scoring 30 then win scoring 10.”) Ant hasn’t been what we hoped for, but his and Dlo’s defense has really been the deciding factor in a lot of games.

Rudy might prefer just straight up defending the paint, but he likes help in boxing out. We are much more likely to grab the board with Towns down low then chasing on the perimeter. Overall, boxing out must be a major point of emphasis for Finch this regular season, so that in the playoffs we can actually execute at a professional level. 29 to 59 is not professional. I don’t know what to call it, but it is certainly not NBA level rebounding.

[TimberKat]

Yeah, I think the big problem with KAT is that he’s both slow and undisciplined. You can only be one of those things defensively. Thinking Basketball had a good breakdown highlighting how KAT is causing problems because he doesn’t communicate well, loses focus, and forces the team to mix PnR coverages causing confusion. That’s especially problematic because Edwards is prone to mistakes so mixing coverages depending on whether Rudy or KAT’s man is screening is a recipe for disaster.

If Wendell Moore plays well with KAT out, I’d be tempted to bench DLo in favor of an Ant/Moore/McDaniels/KAT/Rudy lineup. That way you get more length and athleticism on the floor for defensive rotations while betting Ant/KAT can keep the offense afloat. I don’t think Ant is ready for that level of ball handling responsibility but I’m not sure if there’s a better answer.

Yes, I will use the Kuzma 3 at 8:45 (3rd qtr?) to illustrate again. If Towns is a bad defender, he should stay in the corner with Kuzma. If he is a decent defender, he should move in and up a little and attempt to slow down the roller coming down. If he is a great defender, he could guard the roller at the point of the passing lane to the corner (basically optimize to defend both players). He didn’t do any of that but stand in the middle behind Gobert. So, it’s beyond being a bad defender just tunnel vision on the guy with the ball and wasting energy. It’s almost as bad as DLo forgot to enter the game.

[thinktank]

Yeah, I think the big problem with KAT is that he’s both slow and undisciplined. You can only be one of those things defensively. Thinking Basketball had a good breakdown highlighting how KAT is causing problems because he doesn’t communicate well, loses focus, and forces the team to mix PnR coverages causing confusion. That’s especially problematic because Edwards is prone to mistakes so mixing coverages depending on whether Rudy or KAT’s man is screening is a recipe for disaster.

If Wendell Moore plays well with KAT out, I’d be tempted to bench DLo in favor of an Ant/Moore/McDaniels/KAT/Rudy lineup. That way you get more length and athleticism on the floor for defensive rotations while betting Ant/KAT can keep the offense afloat. I don’t think Ant is ready for that level of ball handling responsibility but I’m not sure if there’s a better answer.

Yes, I will use the Kuzma 3 at 8:45 (3rd qtr?) to illustrate again. If Towns is a bad defender, he should stay in the corner with Kuzma. If he is a decent defender, he should move in and up a little and attempt to slow down the roller coming down. If he is a great defender, he could guard the roller at the point of the passing lane to the corner (basically optimize to defend both players). He didn’t do any of that but stand in the middle behind Gobert. So, it’s beyond being a bad defender just tunnel vision on the guy with the ball and wasting energy. It’s almost as bad as DLo forgot to enter the game.

I 100% agree.

KAT’s problems on D are mostly mental. He doesn’t know where to be, most importantly. His rotations / help are bad too. Veteran NBA players are supposed to be a lot smarter than he is. He doesn’t even communicate. He’s the anti-KG on defense.

[TimberKat]

So, this team has many issues and is not just one person. Here is how I rank the top problems. What’s your top 3?

1. DLo bad shooting, bad shot selection, bad defense; fix – move to off guard or bench, use WMJr/Rivers to defend 1; find a trade
1a. Towns bad defense, bad vibes; fix- grow up man, learn to be a real 4 and re-integrate
3. Ant bad defense; fix – move him to defend the 3
4. Finch can’t motivate the team to play the right way; fix – give it another 20 games then call Quin Snyder
5. Nowell/Forbes not replacing Beasley’s productivity; fix – Nowell is shooting better with higher arc lately, no hope for Forbes just do a trade
6. Gobert career low in blocks and effectiveness; fix – give it time to adjust

[minimus]

Yeah, I think the big problem with KAT is that he’s both slow and undisciplined. You can only be one of those things defensively. Thinking Basketball had a good breakdown highlighting how KAT is causing problems because he doesn’t communicate well, loses focus, and forces the team to mix PnR coverages causing confusion. That’s especially problematic because Edwards is prone to mistakes so mixing coverages depending on whether Rudy or KAT’s man is screening is a recipe for disaster.

If Wendell Moore plays well with KAT out, I’d be tempted to bench DLo in favor of an Ant/Moore/McDaniels/KAT/Rudy lineup. That way you get more length and athleticism on the floor for defensive rotations while betting Ant/KAT can keep the offense afloat. I don’t think Ant is ready for that level of ball handling responsibility but I’m not sure if there’s a better answer.

Yes, I will use the Kuzma 3 at 8:45 (3rd qtr?) to illustrate again. If Towns is a bad defender, he should stay in the corner with Kuzma. If he is a decent defender, he should move in and up a little and attempt to slow down the roller coming down. If he is a great defender, he could guard the roller at the point of the passing lane to the corner (basically optimize to defend both players). He didn’t do any of that but stand in the middle behind Gobert. So, it’s beyond being a bad defender just tunnel vision on the guy with the ball and wasting energy. It’s almost as bad as DLo forgot to enter the game.

I 100% agree.

KAT’s problems on D are mostly mental. He doesn’t know where to be, most importantly. His rotations / help are bad too. Veteran NBA players are supposed to be a lot smarter than he is. He doesn’t even communicate. He’s the anti-KG on defense.

I dont expect Towns to become a lockdown defender, but I agree with you, if he can control his emotions and build good habits he will be so much better. For instance:

1) dont argue with referees right after play. run back in defense, wait for game stop and ask for explanation. why it is important? you memorize particular situation, you keep your emotions under control, you dont let your team down by being late in defense. If you memorize play and ask referees for explanation, there is a chance that you. learn something from it. Against MIA you see how Lowry speaks with referees, he knows rules. Yes, he flops, but man, this old Lowry knows the game

2) right now Towns does not kick his leg under defender when he shoots threes. big sign! now he needs to correct his moving screens, hooking small players. Lets be simple control you right leg when you shoot, control your left hand when you drive.

these two small improvements will raise his game so much better. it is frustrating that these are small things that for years affect his game. against CLE I noticed how smart Kevin Love plays in defense. I hope Towns can improve here as well.

[a8bil]

The turn this thread has taken is interesting. I'm a GSW fan, but I commented last year that I really liked what the T-Wolves were doing. My two reservations were that KAT was being given too large of a role for his skillset (he's more Korver than Embiid) and that D'Russ had to eventually go to a reserve role. Then you traded multiple players for Gobert, and I was even moreso skeptical about where the team was going. I think you may be seeing now how KAT hurts as much as he helps...at least in the role he is given/has assumed. It will be interesting to see how the team fares in his absence. I hope you guys get it rolling.

[younggunsmn]

Wow this Gobert trade keeps getting better and better.
Grade-A moron move getting thrown out over a garbage player like Kenrich Williams.

Looks like we are back to being outsmarted and outhustled up and down the court after a 1 game reprieve.