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Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23

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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#101 » by winforlose » Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:47 pm

_AIJ_ wrote:11 shots for KAT and thats withohut Ant!


In the first half he had 15 and 11, in the second 2 and 1. They put two or three bodies on Karl and played ultra physical. This is where spacing issues and guys not hitting their shots killed us. Jim Pete said something like “Karl’s trusting his teammates, and they are really letting him down.” If Rudy had shown up, if TBJ caught fire, if NAW caught fire, Jaden had his corner game going, if Naz woke up sooner and more sustainably, then maybe things open up more for Karl.

This game was a toss away because in the second half the refs took over. Any half that sees one team shoot 28 free throws and be allowed to play super aggressive super physical defense, and the other shoot 5 and get called for every little thing, is not normal.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#102 » by gandlogo » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pm

The Pels' starters are a match up nightmare for the Wolves. They have four guys with the ability to score - like put the ball in their hands guys. Jonas is a load that can get to any spot on the floor and is still enough of a three-point threat that you have to contest. Zion has the same drive right spin left move that he's been using since his time at Spartanburg Day, but when that train is rolling you can't do much. Too quick for Towns - too strong for Jaden. Put SloMo on him and the already struggling Wolves offense takes another step backwards. Ingram is nice outside/driver threat that is a good match for Jaden, but he eventually gets his or gets Jaden in foul trouble. McCollum is a career 20 ppg/40% from three guy. They are top-5 in the league at getting to the line, and that will likely improve now that Zion and McCollum are back. When healthy the Wolves have two starters and Naz as consistent offensive threats. I like the Wolves' bench slightly more, which is why I still think this would be a great playoff series if both teams are healthy - and why I put very little relevance into the Wolves beating them twice prior this season.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#103 » by Dewey » Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:01 pm

gandlogo wrote:The Pels' starters are a match up nightmare for the Wolves. They have four guys with the ability to score - like put the ball in their hands guys. Jonas is a load that can get to any spot on the floor and is still enough of a three-point threat that you have to contest. Zion has the same drive right spin left move that he's been using since his time at Spartanburg Day, but when that train is rolling you can't do much. Too quick for Towns - too strong for Jaden. Put SloMo on him and the already struggling Wolves offense takes another step backwards. Ingram is nice outside/driver threat that is a good match for Jaden, but he eventually gets his or gets Jaden in foul trouble. McCollum is a career 20 ppg/40% from three guy. They are top-5 in the league at getting to the line, and that will likely improve now that Zion and McCollum are back. When healthy the Wolves have two starters and Naz as consistent offensive threats. I like the Wolves' bench slightly more, which is why I still think this would be a great playoff series if both teams are healthy - and why I put very little relevance into the Wolves beating them twice prior this season.

IMO This is what “players who are not gritty” looks like. No one stepping up … excuses… mail it in … losses
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#104 » by Guest84 » Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:55 pm

Dewey wrote:
gandlogo wrote:The Pels' starters are a match up nightmare for the Wolves. They have four guys with the ability to score - like put the ball in their hands guys. Jonas is a load that can get to any spot on the floor and is still enough of a three-point threat that you have to contest. Zion has the same drive right spin left move that he's been using since his time at Spartanburg Day, but when that train is rolling you can't do much. Too quick for Towns - too strong for Jaden. Put SloMo on him and the already struggling Wolves offense takes another step backwards. Ingram is nice outside/driver threat that is a good match for Jaden, but he eventually gets his or gets Jaden in foul trouble. McCollum is a career 20 ppg/40% from three guy. They are top-5 in the league at getting to the line, and that will likely improve now that Zion and McCollum are back. When healthy the Wolves have two starters and Naz as consistent offensive threats. I like the Wolves' bench slightly more, which is why I still think this would be a great playoff series if both teams are healthy - and why I put very little relevance into the Wolves beating them twice prior this season.

IMO This is what “players who are not gritty” looks like. No one stepping up … excuses… mail it in … losses


I don’t think they mailed it in, I just think they got outplayed. Pair that with 31-14 FT disadvantage and missing shots late…a loss was inevitable.

Time to learn from it and move forward. I also wouldn’t say their lineup is a nightmare for us. Remember we were missing or go to player while theirs was playing. They owed us for the two losses we handed them already.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#105 » by Calinks » Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:11 pm

The Pelicans can also probably exploit a lot of weaknesses.

1. We are not a good scoring team, they are.

2. We foul like crazy, they can get to the line like crazy.

3. They have elite shot making ability, we are limited.

Our only two real shot makers are Towns and Edwards and Towns isn't the shot maker he used to be at the PF positon with the limited space and his inability to get great matchups at the 4. They neutralized him with physicality, a ton of bodies, and taking away his space.

Once that happened, we were dead meat.

Finch has been unable to find any plays or structure that free Towns up when teams gameplan him out of the offense. Towns has been unable to consistently find a way to get himself off on a big level when teams go after him. This has been a problem because if Ant isn't carrying us and Towns gets shut down, we have been stagnant.

There used to be a time where Towns was a walking top ten offense, that isn't the case anymore. We need to figure something else out. He isn't pulling a Joel Embiid and dropping 45 points every night. He's struggling to get 25 that is not enough when other players are bricking left and right. If we had other shooters hitting shots and the floor was open, we would be fine but we don't.

Team is going to have to find a way to get this offense powered up. Even when Edwards gets back, this offense is going to have to get a lot better. In the playoffs we will get picked apart if we are this easy to deflate.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#106 » by winforlose » Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:01 pm

Calinks wrote:The Pelicans can also probably exploit a lot of weaknesses.

1. We are not a good scoring team, they are.

2. We foul like crazy, they can get to the line like crazy.

3. They have elite shot making ability, we are limited.

Our only two real shot makers are Towns and Edwards and Towns isn't the shot maker he used to be at the PF positon with the limited space and his inability to get great matchups at the 4. They neutralized him with physicality, a ton of bodies, and taking away his space.

Once that happened, we were dead meat.

Finch has been unable to find any plays or structure that free Towns up when teams gameplan him out of the offense. Towns has been unable to consistently find a way to get himself off on a big level when teams go after him. This has been a problem because if Ant isn't carrying us and Towns gets shut down, we have been stagnant.

There used to be a time where Towns was a walking top ten offense, that isn't the case anymore. We need to figure something else out. He isn't pulling a Joel Embiid and dropping 45 points every night. He's struggling to get 25 that is not enough when other players are bricking left and right. If we had other shooters hitting shots and the floor was open, we would be fine but we don't.

Team is going to have to find a way to get this offense powered up. Even when Edwards gets back, this offense is going to have to get a lot better. In the playoffs we will get picked apart if we are this easy to deflate.


I disagree with a lot of this.

1. We have a lot of guys who can go off. Two of the last 10 it was TBJ. One or two was NAW. Naz has dropped double digits in most games and 20+ this season. Shake had multiple 20+ games with Philly and is getting back into his grove (I hope.) Jaden can and should play a big role in the offense (especially with the second unit,) this season. Rudy has been dominating offensive boards and getting a lot of slams. We are not a bad offensive team. We are inconsistent with our third scorer, but that is often okay as long as you feed the hot hand.

2. We haven’t been fouling like crazy. Our numbers don’t show that this year. This game was actually fine in the first half. They shot 12 free throws we shot 11. The refs were missing things for both teams and I found it to be somewhat refreshing that it was being called somewhat evenly. Then the second half comes around and all hell breaks loose. They didn’t out play us, they just got away with bloody murder.

3. Karl and Naz are 50/40/90. Mike is a good 3 point shooter. TBJ can catch fire and light it up. Jaden is an excellent corner 3 point shooter. They made more shots than we did last night, doesn’t make them that much better at shooting.


4. Karl needs to listen to Finch. Finch wants Karl shooting Malik Beasley levels of 3 point shots. He has flat out said Karl is the best shooter on the team. Karl wants to drive and often drives with poor technique. When the double comes he kicks out, but that takes the shot out of the hands of our best shooter. Karl is the problem, and Karl is the solution.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#107 » by Calinks » Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:41 pm

winforlose wrote:
Calinks wrote:The Pelicans can also probably exploit a lot of weaknesses.

1. We are not a good scoring team, they are.

2. We foul like crazy, they can get to the line like crazy.

3. They have elite shot making ability, we are limited.

Our only two real shot makers are Towns and Edwards and Towns isn't the shot maker he used to be at the PF positon with the limited space and his inability to get great matchups at the 4. They neutralized him with physicality, a ton of bodies, and taking away his space.

Once that happened, we were dead meat.

Finch has been unable to find any plays or structure that free Towns up when teams gameplan him out of the offense. Towns has been unable to consistently find a way to get himself off on a big level when teams go after him. This has been a problem because if Ant isn't carrying us and Towns gets shut down, we have been stagnant.

There used to be a time where Towns was a walking top ten offense, that isn't the case anymore. We need to figure something else out. He isn't pulling a Joel Embiid and dropping 45 points every night. He's struggling to get 25 that is not enough when other players are bricking left and right. If we had other shooters hitting shots and the floor was open, we would be fine but we don't.

Team is going to have to find a way to get this offense powered up. Even when Edwards gets back, this offense is going to have to get a lot better. In the playoffs we will get picked apart if we are this easy to deflate.


I disagree with a lot of this.

1. We have a lot of guys who can go off. Two of the last 10 it was TBJ. One or two was NAW. Naz has dropped double digits in most games and 20+ this season. Shake had multiple 20+ games with Philly and is getting back into his grove (I hope.) Jaden can and should play a big role in the offense (especially with the second unit,) this season. Rudy has been dominating offensive boards and getting a lot of slams. We are not a bad offensive team. We are inconsistent with our third scorer, but that is often okay as long as you feed the hot hand.

2. We haven’t been fouling like crazy. Our numbers don’t show that this year. This game was actually fine in the first half. They shot 12 free throws we shot 11. The refs were missing things for both teams and I found it to be somewhat refreshing that it was being called somewhat evenly. Then the second half comes around and all hell breaks loose. They didn’t out play us, they just got away with bloody murder.

3. Karl and Naz are 50/40/90. Mike is a good 3 point shooter. TBJ can catch fire and light it up. Jaden is an excellent corner 3 point shooter. They made more shots than we did last night, doesn’t make them that much better at shooting.


4. Karl needs to listen to Finch. Finch wants Karl shooting Malik Beasley levels of 3 point shots. He has flat out said Karl is the best shooter on the team. Karl wants to drive and often drives with poor technique. When the double comes he kicks out, but that takes the shot out of the hands of our best shooter. Karl is the problem, and Karl is the solution.

TBJ, NAW, and Shake are not shooters. They are streaky scorers at best. Yes they can get hot but they are not reliable shooters by any stretch. They are guys who are good if they are supplemental guys complimenting a group of reliable shooters, you don't want to be relying on those guys night in and night out.

Our offense is middle fo the pack at best this season. I do think it can be better but if we want to be serious contenders we need to be hovering around top 5. We aren't close to that. I think we ranked something like 18 when we had Anthony Edwards, that is not great, it's been adequate with some flashes of good. Our defense has been carrying us.

In the past, Karl-Anthony Towns has been such a dynamic offensive force, almost he alone was enough to continually propel us to a top ten offense. With his new role though, he no longer seems like he can do that.

Yes, Finch wants him to shoot more three's, we all want him to and he should and some of that is on him, but a lot of that is also beasue teams are able to scheme him out of the game easier. Its harder for him to get his offensive off now. I don't know all the reasons for that but it seems like a lot of that is because of the spacing and where he has to play now because he is playing with another big.

Before he has way more space to work with. Now he is limited on the perimeter and we are seeing teams out sending a ton of guys out there after him and they are beating on him every night. Teams are able to get extra physical with him and he doesn't get calls like a lot guards would. So he gets beat up, he gets players in his face, he gets contested, and he doesn't get a lot of clean looks. Teams get to play elite defense on him every night and he can't go off like he used to at center. He is not as effective as he once was and unless Finch comes up with some ways to scheme better offense around Towns with our current setup he probably wont be the scorer he used to be for us in on most nights.

Maybe the numbers say differently right now but we have been one of the teams that have fouled the most in recent years. Towns and Jaden are among the top foulers in the league. Last night we were getting whistles blown on us every other play. We also don't draw a ton of fouls ourselves traditionally. It's not a good combination and something we need to work on.

As for KAT passing better out of doubles, yea he does need to do that but he also needs to have teammates who can make themselves presentable to his passes and hit open shots. Last night you had guys like Kyle Anderson avoiding the 3 point line like the plague. Then you had guys bricking wide open threes that Towns was making passes to like Brown and Milton. It was indeed a bad night but we will have a lot of those with the inconsistent shooters we have.

We could really use one or two reliable shooters on this squad, maybe one or two will emerge from the current crop of guys or maybe we can make a trade to bring someone in.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#108 » by winforlose » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:03 am

Calinks wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Calinks wrote:The Pelicans can also probably exploit a lot of weaknesses.

1. We are not a good scoring team, they are.

2. We foul like crazy, they can get to the line like crazy.

3. They have elite shot making ability, we are limited.

Our only two real shot makers are Towns and Edwards and Towns isn't the shot maker he used to be at the PF positon with the limited space and his inability to get great matchups at the 4. They neutralized him with physicality, a ton of bodies, and taking away his space.

Once that happened, we were dead meat.

Finch has been unable to find any plays or structure that free Towns up when teams gameplan him out of the offense. Towns has been unable to consistently find a way to get himself off on a big level when teams go after him. This has been a problem because if Ant isn't carrying us and Towns gets shut down, we have been stagnant.

There used to be a time where Towns was a walking top ten offense, that isn't the case anymore. We need to figure something else out. He isn't pulling a Joel Embiid and dropping 45 points every night. He's struggling to get 25 that is not enough when other players are bricking left and right. If we had other shooters hitting shots and the floor was open, we would be fine but we don't.

Team is going to have to find a way to get this offense powered up. Even when Edwards gets back, this offense is going to have to get a lot better. In the playoffs we will get picked apart if we are this easy to deflate.


I disagree with a lot of this.

1. We have a lot of guys who can go off. Two of the last 10 it was TBJ. One or two was NAW. Naz has dropped double digits in most games and 20+ this season. Shake had multiple 20+ games with Philly and is getting back into his grove (I hope.) Jaden can and should play a big role in the offense (especially with the second unit,) this season. Rudy has been dominating offensive boards and getting a lot of slams. We are not a bad offensive team. We are inconsistent with our third scorer, but that is often okay as long as you feed the hot hand.

2. We haven’t been fouling like crazy. Our numbers don’t show that this year. This game was actually fine in the first half. They shot 12 free throws we shot 11. The refs were missing things for both teams and I found it to be somewhat refreshing that it was being called somewhat evenly. Then the second half comes around and all hell breaks loose. They didn’t out play us, they just got away with bloody murder.

3. Karl and Naz are 50/40/90. Mike is a good 3 point shooter. TBJ can catch fire and light it up. Jaden is an excellent corner 3 point shooter. They made more shots than we did last night, doesn’t make them that much better at shooting.


4. Karl needs to listen to Finch. Finch wants Karl shooting Malik Beasley levels of 3 point shots. He has flat out said Karl is the best shooter on the team. Karl wants to drive and often drives with poor technique. When the double comes he kicks out, but that takes the shot out of the hands of our best shooter. Karl is the problem, and Karl is the solution.

TBJ, NAW, and Shake are not shooters. They are streaky scorers at best. Yes they can get hot but they are not reliable shooters by any stretch. They are guys who are good if they are supplemental guys complimenting a group of reliable shooters, you don't want to be relying on those guys night in and night out.

Our offense is middle fo the pack at best this season. I do think it can be better but if we want to be serious contenders we need to be hovering around top 5. We aren't close to that. I think we ranked something like 18 when we had Anthony Edwards, that is not great, it's been adequate with some flashes of good. Our defense has been carrying us.

In the past, Karl-Anthony Towns has been such a dynamic offensive force, almost he alone was enough to continually propel us to a top ten offense. With his new role though, he no longer seems like he can do that.

Yes, Finch wants him to shoot more three's, we all want him to and he should and some of that is on him, but a lot of that is also beasue teams are able to scheme him out of the game easier. Its harder for him to get his offensive off now. I don't know all the reasons for that but it seems like a lot of that is because of the spacing and where he has to play now because he is playing with another big.

Before he has way more space to work with. Now he is limited on the perimeter and we are seeing teams out sending a ton of guys out there after him and they are beating on him every night. Teams are able to get extra physical with him and he doesn't get calls like a lot guards would. So he gets beat up, he gets players in his face, he gets contested, and he doesn't get a lot of clean looks. Teams get to play elite defense on him every night and he can't go off like he used to at center. He is not as effective as he once was and unless Finch comes up with some ways to scheme better offense around Towns with our current setup he probably wont be the scorer he used to be for us in on most nights.

Maybe the numbers say differently right now but we have been one of the teams that have fouled the most in recent years. Towns and Jaden are among the top foulers in the league. Last night we were getting whistles blown on us every other play. We also don't draw a ton of fouls ourselves traditionally. It's not a good combination and something we need to work on.

As for KAT passing better out of doubles, yea he does need to do that but he also needs to have teammates who can make themselves presentable to his passes and hit open shots. Last night you had guys like Kyle Anderson avoiding the 3 point line like the plague. Then you had guys bricking wide open threes that Towns was making passes to like Brown and Milton. It was indeed a bad night but we will have a lot of those with the inconsistent shooters we have.

We could really use one or two reliable shooters on this squad, maybe one or two will emerge from the current crop of guys or maybe we can make a trade to bring someone in.


There is a lot to address so I will probably miss something ;).

1. Totally agree about the bench 3. They are streaky and game to game cannot be counted on. That said, 1 out of 3 ain’t bad. If even one is hot on a given night, we have a solid bench shooter for that night. That is why NAW, TBJ, and Shake are affordable. I will feel better when Shake is a little less Shakey (pun INTENDED ;)) but beyond that I think a 20 point ceiling and good defense is worth a bad shooting night floor.

2. KAT has been fouling more on offense than defense the last few years. He has also had multiple games where he keeps the fouls down and still contributes in the fourth. Jaden has an issue with fouling, but he also guards THE GUY on the other team. When that is Curry, Harden, Durant, ect…. not only are they skilled at drawing fouls, but they get the special whistles designed to to **** the defender and frankly the whole Wolves team. It might become an issue, but I am not ready to concede it is an issue this year without more consistent foul trouble game to game.

3. These numbers may be slightly off, but I think I heard that MCD has played 9 games with more than 5 minutes this season. I apologize if this is off by 1-2 in either direction. But he is more than a defender. He is a shot creator, an efficient corner 3 point shooter, and a smart cutter when he wants to be. Missing your starting SF and replacing him with a guy not known for his offense is going to lower your rating. Additionally, it took a while but we got Rudy cooking on offense more (last night not withstanding,) with a bunch of guys throwing good dimes to him. Having hyper efficient Rudy will really help, especially when he offensive rebounds against smaller teams. Kyle is a big problem offensively but I want him out of the rotation until he fixes his shot. Mike is shooting more which will raise our numbers, and KAT is averaging 21.6 on 50/40/90. Don’t worry about the offense yet, we have more than enough talent, we just need to get guys playing together and get healthy. TLDR, we are too good to stay this bad, things will turn around.

4. Karl feasts as often as he famines when he attacks the rim. He can split the D and get through the double as well as any big name offensive player. What he needs is his supporting cast to make shots to increase opposing rotations and make more openings for him. Something I do think will happen more with MCD and Ant back, but that also happened plenty when TBJ, NAW, or Naz catch fire. KAT’s problem is he doesn’t shoot enough and he doesn’t shoot enough 3s. If he increases his volume his numbers will come up.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#109 » by FrenchMinnyFan » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:19 am

Nothing to worry for me. YEs offense is struggling at times but we play without ANT and JAden a lot of games. I would like to see this team with all players healthy. For me the key will be how we mixed roster to make sure we don't have a line up with no scorer inside or only one as it's too easy for the opponent to block us.
Regarding our 2 stars players. KAT has to shoot more an ANT become more consistent. That's the only way we can become a contender. Rudy will do his things well but he is limited offensively. Mike will conduct the game well but he will never go for 25 per night.
Hope Milton, NAW and Troy improve too. It will help.
However, i do remember that all ''specialist'' were putting us 6 to 10 at the beggining at the season. We are much better than that.
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Re: Game 22 Wolves at Pelicans 12/11/23 

Post#110 » by minimus » Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:27 am

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