TimConnelly's model VS coach Finch's model

[nolian]

I think that TC and Finch has different model to delevope team and players

TC want to select some rookies at the draft and develope them in a few years

Finch doesn't trust in rookies

in 5 years and a quarter, no-one rookies has developed under coach Finch
I often read about the good job (Finch did) with develope of McDaniels, Reid, And, NAW, or others
But all of them came in Minnesota before of Finch

in these years there's no-one rookies realy developed under Finch
Minott and W.Moore never had a real chance
L.Miller costed two future 2nd round pick (it means that TC trust in him, not like Spagnolo for example), Garza (also if he arrives not as a rookie), Dillingham they never had e real chance.
Perhaps TSJ and Clark will have a real chance?

Few times we talked about TC model in Denver, where he has renovated with rookies, but that model appear doesn't work in Minnesota under coach finch

what do you think about?

[shrink]

Actually, once Denver started to win like us, their coach Mike Malone was often criticized for not playing the rookies too.

I know a lot of people blame Finch for the lack of development of rookies, but I think he is just an easy target, and there are many reasons we’ve had a lack of success.

1. MIN is no longer getting high lottery picks every draft, like they did for most of their history.
2. In an attempt to find talent, Connelly likes to choose high upside players, but low percent chances to drop that low.
3. Ant, McDaniels and Naz have all developed a great deal under Finch, and those were our big investments.
4. Let’s not forget NAW’s growth under Finch
5. Connelly’s major roster changes (KAT, DLo out, Gobert, Randle, DDV in) meant starters needed minutes to adjust.
6. MIN is no longer a bad team, that might as well give rookies unearned of playing time. They compete in the tough West.
7. The player’s themselves deserve some responsibility. Minott’s texting during a game isn’t Finch’s fault.
8. Behind the scenes development happens. Clark and TSJ made immediate contributions when they got game time.

I also don’t feel as bleak about our youth. I think Connelly found someone in Jaylen Clark with the 53rd pick, and people have forgotten how we were certain Terrance Shannon Jr would be part of our rotation after a great Summer League. I trust that the proper development of Beringer does not include NBA minutes right away. Finch said last week that Dillingham and Shannon will continue to get minutes, although he clearly doesn’t like it.

Dillingham may be a bust. It happens, and that would hurt, considering how much Connelly gave up for him. But I am not willing yet to extrapolate that MIN can’t develop rookies, or even worse, that it’s all Finch’s fault.

[shrink]

I also think this is a good opportunity to point out Connelly’s drafting style. Even in Denver, he was a fan of value-investing. For those that are unaware, this is a finance term for buying in on risky, high upside investments, whose price has been beaten down by outside events. In the draft, the price is a higher draft pick.

Here’s his significant draft history in Denver, starting in 2013

#27 Gobert (traded right away, might have been picking for others, but it fits his style. I’ll list others who got traded)
#11 Doug McDermott
#41 Jokic
#7 Mudiay
#7 Jamal Murray
#15 Juancho
#19 Malik Beasley
#11 Donovan Mitchell
#51 Monte Morris
#14 MPJ (dropped because of his back)
#22 Nnaji
#26 Bones

He’s done a really good job plucking under-valued talent, but like he says, he’s just guessing. Mudiay was a big whiff, and I hope that Dillingham isn’t another.

[BlacJacMac]

I think that TC and Finch has different model to delevope team and players

TC want to select some rookies at the draft and develope them in a few years

Finch doesn't trust in rookies

in 5 years and a quarter, no-one rookies has developed under coach Finch
I often read about the good job (Finch did) with develope of McDaniels, Reid, And, NAW, or others
But all of them came in Minnesota before of Finch

in these years there's no-one rookies realy developed under Finch
Minott and W.Moore never had a real chance
L.Miller costed two future 2nd round pick (it means that TC trust in him, not like Spagnolo for example), Garza (also if he arrives not as a rookie), Dillingham they never had e real chance.
Perhaps TSJ and Clark will have a real chance?

Few times we talked about TC model in Denver, where he has renovated with rookies, but that model appear doesn't work in Minnesota under coach finch

what do you think about?

When Finch took over the team:

Ant had played 31 games.
McDaniels had played 25 games.
Naz had played 59 games.

And NAW came here the offseason before Finch's 3rd season.

[Araxen]

Most teams that want to win a championship are reluctant to play rookies. In the West, just one loss can mean you are in the play-in or worse.

[winforlose]

I think that TC and Finch has different model to delevope team and players

TC want to select some rookies at the draft and develope them in a few years

Finch doesn't trust in rookies

in 5 years and a quarter, no-one rookies has developed under coach Finch
I often read about the good job (Finch did) with develope of McDaniels, Reid, And, NAW, or others
But all of them came in Minnesota before of Finch

in these years there's no-one rookies realy developed under Finch
Minott and W.Moore never had a real chance
L.Miller costed two future 2nd round pick (it means that TC trust in him, not like Spagnolo for example), Garza (also if he arrives not as a rookie), Dillingham they never had e real chance.
Perhaps TSJ and Clark will have a real chance?

Few times we talked about TC model in Denver, where he has renovated with rookies, but that model appear doesn't work in Minnesota under coach finch

what do you think about?

When Finch took over the team:

Ant had played 31 games.
McDaniels had played 25 games.
Naz had played 59 games.

And NAW came here the offseason before Finch's 3rd season.

This, plus Ant and Jaden were drafted in 2020 and Finch was hired in February 22, 2021. Finch took over literally during Ant and Jaden’s rookie season. That being true, how much credit does Finch get for Ant developing a 3 point shoot or improving his turnaround game during the offseason? Also how much blame does Finch get for Ant going hero mode and losing games by halting ball movement? Another example is Jaden has taken a major offensive step in year 5, but I contend he could have much sooner if he was given a coach who encouraged his offense to develop instead of parking him in a corner and demanding he only shoot 3s. Jaden still does not shoot enough even after having proven he has 3rd option potential on very efficient shooting. I would argue that Finch got in on the ground floor and had a direct negative effect on the pace of development of both Ant and Jaden. Likewise he played a big role in holdback the development of Josh Minott, who is proving rotation worthy for Boston.

[Klomp]

Sometimes, it takes players a year or two to adjust to playing in the NBA. And I would say that there doesn't have to always be blame thrown around when something happens or doesn't happen.

In his first season coaching the Bulls, Phil Jackson got no farther in the playoffs than Doug Collins did the year before. Some would call that grounds for dismissal.

[winforlose]

Sometimes, it takes players a year or two to adjust to playing in the NBA. And I would say that there doesn't have to always be blame thrown around when something happens or doesn't happen.

In his first season coaching the Bulls, Phil Jackson got no farther in the playoffs than Doug Collins did the year before. Some would call that grounds for dismissal.

My point is that Ant and Jaden still have the same negative qualities in their game and are still their biggest weak points, all these years later. If Finch cannot be the guy to get Jaden to shoot more and explore his offense more he needs to go. Likewise if Finch cannot be the guy to help Ant understand how to keep the offense flowing in the fourth and not go hero mode (often leading to bad turnovers, poor shot selection, an general frustration which causes his teammates to play worse and go cold,) then someone else needs to be brought in who can. I could argue the same about Naz’s defense, but I won’t because he is being played out of position.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Good teams does not play rookie much. So i don't blame for this even if i think he should play Rob more and give some min to Joan. What's annoyed me with Finch is how he manage star player. ANT is in year 6 and he is still make the same dumb action resulting to turnoves. Same go for Randle. Considering how both are talented, this should be easy to fixed.
Wondering if players really listen to Finch at times and this is annoying.

[Klomp]

What's annoyed me with Finch is how he manage star player. ANT is in year 6 and he is still make the same dumb action resulting to turnoves. Same go for Randle. Considering how both are talented, this should be easy to fixed.
Wondering if players really listen to Finch at times and this is annoying.

Is Jokic not listening to his coaches every time he gives up an interior bucket?

Star players are not perfect. They have their own sets of weaknesses, but those weaknesses are offset by absurdly great strengths.

[shrink]

Sometimes, it takes players a year or two to adjust to playing in the NBA. And I would say that there doesn't have to always be blame thrown around when something happens or doesn't happen.

In his first season coaching the Bulls, Phil Jackson got no farther in the playoffs than Doug Collins did the year before. Some would call that grounds for dismissal.

My point is that Ant and Jaden still have the same negative qualities in their game and are still their biggest weak points, all these years later. If Finch cannot be the guy to get Jaden to shoot more and explore his offense more he needs to go. Likewise if Finch cannot be the guy to help Ant understand how to keep the offense flowing in the fourth and not go hero mode (often leading to bad turnovers, poor shot selection, an general frustration which causes his teammates to play worse and go cold,) then someone else needs to be brought in who can. I could argue the same about Naz’s defense, but I won’t because he is being played out of position.

I’ve said this before, but I hate that you create unwinnable situations to force the facts to fit your opinions.

If players don’t develop, that’s a black mark on Finch.
If players do develop, it’s a black mark on Finch for not doing it earlier.
If players have bad aspects to their games (like Jaden not shooting enough, or Ant hero mode), that’s Finch’s fault too. Do you ever give Finch credit for player’s good aspects, like Jaden’s rim defense or driving, or Ant developing into a superstar? Nope.

As long as you create these unwinnable, prejudicial standards, then picking-and-choosing the evidence, you will always believe your own opinions, and never see the world as it is.

[winforlose]

Sometimes, it takes players a year or two to adjust to playing in the NBA. And I would say that there doesn't have to always be blame thrown around when something happens or doesn't happen.

In his first season coaching the Bulls, Phil Jackson got no farther in the playoffs than Doug Collins did the year before. Some would call that grounds for dismissal.

My point is that Ant and Jaden still have the same negative qualities in their game and are still their biggest weak points, all these years later. If Finch cannot be the guy to get Jaden to shoot more and explore his offense more he needs to go. Likewise if Finch cannot be the guy to help Ant understand how to keep the offense flowing in the fourth and not go hero mode (often leading to bad turnovers, poor shot selection, an general frustration which causes his teammates to play worse and go cold,) then someone else needs to be brought in who can. I could argue the same about Naz’s defense, but I won’t because he is being played out of position.

I’ve said this before, but I hate that you create unwinnable situations to force the facts to fit your opinions.

If players don’t develop, that’s a black mark on Finch.
If players do develop, it’s a black mark on Finch for not doing it earlier.
If players have bad aspects to their games (like Jaden not shooting enough, or Ant hero mode), that’s Finch’s fault too. Do you ever give Finch credit for player’s good aspects, like Jaden’s rim defense or driving, or Ant developing into a superstar? Nope.

As long as you create these unwinnable, prejudicial standards, then picking-and-choosing the evidence, you will always believe your own opinions, and never see the world as it is.

I hear you but the conversation always breaks down in the same spot. Do you credit Finch for the progress Ant makes in the offseason? Is Finch the reason Ant became a good 3 point shooter?

You want credit for Finch, the zone he is running with Jaden in the middle is the best alternative to having Rudy on the floor. By the same token he loves to play without Rudy or Jaden, and that I cannot abide.

I give credit where I find it appropriate. At the same time I see year after year we live and die with the talent of our players and not the talent of our team. Watching Dane’s pod today Britt said it perfectly, “this team is not better than the sum of its parts.” Jaden proves he can be a high volume efficient scorer, yet the system doesn’t seek to give Jaden more FGA. Donte is shooting at an elite level from distance and yet most games cannot get enough shots up. Bones shows the hot hand so we bench him for Mike. A few games back TSJ was the hot hand 7/7 so we benched him for the cold hand. Last year we were dead last in defensive rating with Naz and Randle playing 4/5, TC drafts two Cs and Finch won’t give Joan any run even against fellow rookies. The list goes on. For everyone thing Finch gets right, there are bunch more wrong, and starts and ends with his schemes. They often struggle defensively, they lead to terrible transition defense and defensive rebounding (usually one of those is good,) and they lead to ISO heavy chaos offense where we win or lose with hero ball on any given night. This is not good coaching, even if he does occasionally have a good idea like Jaden in the middle of a zone.

[shrink]

I give credit where I find it appropriate.

And that selective personal bias will always define you. You will never give credit if it disagrees with your opinion.

I learned years ago how fruitless it is to try to get people who create unwinnable logical situations to start being fair.

You will think what you want. It will always be like that, and nothing I can say is going to keep you from your own biased path.

[winforlose]

I give credit where I find it appropriate.

And that selective personal bias will always define you. You will never give credit if it disagrees with your opinion.

I learned years ago how fruitless it is to try to get people who create unwinnable logical situations to start being fair.

You will think what you want. It will always be like that, and nothing I can say is going to keep you from your own biased path.

You do realize that the “unwinnable logical situation,” is an entirely subjective standard. I gave you not only a tangible example of what the problem is, but a concrete way to fix it. I said that we are not better than the some of our parts, and that it begins and ends with the schemes. I don’t know if you have noticed but the schemes have been largely the same year after year. I also will point out that I gave a concreate example of most personal growth occurring during the offseason (Ant learning to shoot 3s at a high clip.) You could argue Finch letting Ant shoot those 3s is a good job by him. Except that he doesn’t make that call, because the organized chaos and hero mode mentality do. You don’t give me criteria by which you think Finch should be judged and attack the ones I give you based on a subjective criteria without telling me how to objectively refine mine to be more fair. If I am not supposed to trust my own opinions should I trust yours? Are your opinions more objective than mine?

[shrink]

You do realize that the “unwinnable logical situation,” is an entirely subjective standard. I gave you not only a tangible example of what the problem is, but a concrete way to fix it. I said that we are not better than the some of our parts ..

Such hypocrisy, can you show me your non-subjective standard for “worse than sum of our parts?” Do you listen to yourself?

And no, an unwinnable logical situation is not subjective. You have to be brave enough to create a system where you put your opinions to the test, based on ALL the actual data.

As I mentioned, you made a system where you blame Finch for players not developing, but give no credit when they do.
You created a system that blames Finch when players do develop, saying they didn’t develop fast enough.
And you created a system where you blame Finch for slices of players games that are bad, and don’t give him credit when other slices are good.

You have bastardized logic, creating a standard that is unwinnable. And then you say looking at the whole picture is the “entirely subjective standard?!?” Horrible

[winforlose]

You do realize that the “unwinnable logical situation,” is an entirely subjective standard. I gave you not only a tangible example of what the problem is, but a concrete way to fix it. I said that we are not better than the some of our parts ..

Such hypocrisy, can you show me your non-subjective standard for “worse than sum of our parts?” Do you listen to yourself?

And no, an unwinnable logical situation is not subjective. You have to be brave enough to create a system where you put your opinions to the test, based on ALL the actual data.

As I mentioned, you made a system where you blame Finch for players not developing, but give no credit when they do.
You created a system that blames Finch when players do develop, saying they didn’t develop fast enough.
And you created a system where you blame Finch for slices of players games that are bad, and don’t give him credit when other slices are good.

You have bastardized logic, creating a standard that is unwinnable. And then you say looking at the whole picture is the “entirely subjective standard?!?” Horrible

Again you refuse to answer the question of does Finch get credit for Ant’s 3 point shooting. You talk about putting my assumptions to the test but you refuse to examine yours. If you give credit for the developments Ant makes away from the team then your standard is to give Finch credit for everything any player does. Even when young players age toward their prime. By that logic is Finch responsible for Mike’s age related decline? I think that is ridiculous, but if you don’t differentiate between natural progression with age and coaching then why not also fail to differentiate between natural regression and coaching.

Jaden has shown an ability to handle a high volume of offense, yet his shot volume has not dramatically increased. Not year over year, and not consistently across this season. Whose fault is that if not the coaches? If it is Jaden’s (a fair answer,) then whose job is it to get Jaden to take more shots. If year after year boxing out is a problem, whose job is it to get the team to improve it? You accuse me of being to quick to blame Finch but you never even define the role of the HC. You never tell me what you credit Finch for and what you blame him for.

You attack me based on my opinion but refuse to put yourself out there.

[Klomp]

I also will point out that I gave a concreate example of most personal growth occurring during the offseason (Ant learning to shoot 3s at a high clip.) You could argue Finch letting Ant shoot those 3s is a good job by him. Except that he doesn’t make that call, because the organized chaos and hero mode mentality do.

That was actually a big sticking point for the coaching staff up until Ant made the leap. So yes, I would give Finch some of the credit for that. Obviously Ant had to put in the work, but the coaching staff was pushing him to focus less on midrange and more on 3-pointers for years.

[shrink]

You attack me based on my opinion but refuse to put yourself out there.

It took me a long time to realize that it’s worthless for me to debate people who will only look at information that reinforces their own preconceived biases. I don’t care what your opinion is, but intentionally ignoring a fair way to arrive at it just annoys me. This is why I don’t argue with religious zealots, political ideologues or racists. I don’t believe all the problems of a system are caused by Obama (or Trump), Jews, Blacks, or whoever the person wants to scapegoat with a one-sided recitation of the facts. In fact, I believe this type of thinking is the reason we have such a divisive society.

[Loaf_of_bread]

As long as this thread is getting out of hand..

If I had to guess shrink quite left leaning, and w4l is quite right leaning on the political spectrum.

[Note30]

You attack me based on my opinion but refuse to put yourself out there.

It took me a long time to realize that it’s worthless for me to debate people who will only look at information that reinforces their own preconceived biases. I don’t care what your opinion is, but intentionally ignoring a fair way to arrive at it just annoys me. This is why I don’t argue with religious zealots, political ideologues or racists. I don’t believe all the problems of a system are caused by Obama (or Trump), Jews, Blacks, or whoever the person wants to scapegoat with a one-sided recitation of the facts. In fact, I believe this type of thinking is the reason we have such a divisive society.

Well we're all on here for a reason. I'd assume it's a similar reason for everyone else.

One of the nicest things about this forum is that even though I may not have an idea of who any of you are, I know you each by your opinions. Which is arguably leads to an incredibly inclusive type of discussion.

For that reason it does still suck to see you fence sit even if you do believe it's a colossal waste to argue with anyone who has a hard time moving away from their subjective views when presented with reasonable evidence otherwise.

I know for example I have an incredibly subjective and negative view point that's probably a bit too grounded in my anger for how I think things should be run even despite the evidence that things to a degree have been fairly positive the past few years.

It's just social to want to know others.