Wittman versus McHale

[shrink]

You said no GM has done more help us rebuild, we are still 1-7 with a team who can't play defense. McHale knew this ahead of time. The team who traded us Love and Miller has a better record than us and Mario Chalmers helped the Heat to having the 7th best record in the West. Don't get me started with Portland. All McHale did was put a band-aid on a problem he caused, we are still a mediocre team.

Eight games this season isn't the yardstick on doing a rebuild. The measurement is:

1. Getting youth and removing old players
2. Getting draft picks and removing draft pick credits
3. Getting cap space financial and removing long, overpaid contracts.

Hey, Memphis started the season 3-7? I don't care. Mario Chalmers started strong? At the time we traded the pick, he'd have been our fourth PG, if we even kept him, so a strong start is something I don't care about. BTW, Chalmers had his eighth consecutive game where he failed to score in double digits, while averaging 31 MPG and a FG% of 37.9. Say, do you think we'd have lost the POR game last night if we won the lottery, and Oden and Corey Brewer swapped teams? Does McHale get scapegoated for that loss too?

Rebuilding implies that it takes time. I don't want to hear about 3-7 starts. We'll find out down the road whether it has been successful, but I don't think anyone can deny that with all the extra cap space, youth and picks, we now have a chance at a future that didn't exist 18 months ago -- and a new-found flexibility to allow us to make changes.

[shrink]

All McHale did was put a band-aid on a problem he caused...

I would say that his moves after Cassell and Sprewell went egomaniacal were band-aids. We had one great player in Kevin Garnett, but we had little good youth and too many old players, a bad financial structure, and owed picks. With local and national media refusing to accept a rebuild, McHale tried the band-aid fixes of Mark Bount, Ricky Davis and Mike James to a team that needed major change, but without the talent, picks, cap space, or fan support to get it done.

Trading Kevin Garnett was an amputation. But by removing our strongest right leg, we provided a chance at life with new young life, chopped out a tremendous amount of fat, and improved our overall fitness and diet by not eating expensive cream-filled Troy Hudsons and Mike James, but $2.5 mil Telfair and Craig Smith Lean Cuisine.

The team needed more than band-aids, and that's exactly what McHale did. Whether the team develops or not is something we will see down the road, but the need for no mroe band-aids is something that was certainly addressed.

[Effigy]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won..

The funny thing about 'experts' is that they're fickle. By mid season every 'expert' out there will be saying the opposite. It may not take that long. Mayo is a serious ROY candidate, while Love is not in the conversation and Miller has been a dissapointment.

In the last 18 months, no GM has done more to give his team an instant rebuild. With KG traded, he cleaned house, getting rid of older vets with some attitude problems, like Blount, Mike James, Ricky Davis, Trenton Hassell, Marko Jaric, Walker, Buckner and bought out Howard and Hudson. In their place we added loads of youth, 4 more firsts, and bazillions in cap space. MIN now has at least a chance at a future -- before they had none. If you want to bash McHale for other trades, you have to give him credit for what he's done recently.

In the last 18 months Portland moved Zach Randolph for Channing Frye and cap room, drafted Greg Oden, Rudy Fernandez, Jeryd Bayless and Nicholas Batum and got a medical exzemption for Darius Miles in a way that appears to have set us up to sign a max free agent this off season.

Also Seattle traded Ray Allen for the 5th pick in the draft, wisely decided not to try to match Rashard Lewis's ridiculous contract but was able to trade him for a trade exception that they then used to trade to Phoenix for Kurt Thomas and 2 first rounders, and then dealt Thomas to the Spurs for 1 first rounder. They went from an old team filled with expensive vets to a young team loaded with talent and in position to sign a max free agent this year as well. So I would disagree with that statement.

Oh and one quick question about those older vetw with attitude problems and horrible contracts. Who brought those guys into Minnesota in the first place?

[the_bruce]

In the last 18 months Portland moved Zach Randolph for Channing Frye and cap room, drafted Greg Oden, Rudy Fernandez, Jeryd Bayless and Nicholas Batum and got a medical exzemption for Darius Miles in a way that appears to have set us up to sign a max free agent this off season.

Randolph for channing Frye and cap space? You forget 1 clear component here the 30m it cost to buyout francis? Sure they owed randolph some money no matter what but they still paid more money in the deal for 0 production.

Bayless cost more money to move up (jack has the value of a mid-late1st at the time)

Fernandez purchased

Batum purchased

Oden luck

Miles exemption - injury to a player how can the GM get credit for this

Portland is willing to throw out massive cash to fix the situation. That's fine but you are giving way to much credit here to a team that can do whatever they want in terms of draft or for plain straight up luck.

[walchy]

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.

In the last 18 months, no GM has done more to give his team an instant rebuild. With KG traded, he cleaned house, getting rid of older vets with some attitude problems, like Blount, Mike James, Ricky Davis, Trenton Hassell, Marko Jaric, Walker, Buckner and bought out Howard and Hudson. In their place we added loads of youth, 4 more firsts, and bazillions in cap space. MIN now has at least a chance at a future -- before they had none. If you want to bash McHale for other trades, you have to give him credit for what he's done recently.

I don't always trust experts, and I believe those who think the Mayo-Love trade helped us is wrong.

You said no GM has done more help us rebuild, we are still 1-7 with a team who can't play defense. McHale knew this ahead of time. The team who traded us Love and Miller has a better record than us and Mario Chalmers helped the Heat to having the 7th best record in the West. Don't get me started with Portland. All McHale did was put a band-aid on a problem he caused, we are still a mediocre team.

Chalmers - Blake
Mayo - Roy
Brewer - Batum
Pekovic - Aldridge
Jefferson - Oden

I see this roster and it just makes sense (heck, there are several possibilities with this roster). Now we have a roster who can score plenty of points, problem is every team can score more on us. I can't really bash McHale for making the Blount/Davis trade, but what did McHale have to lose. Same with the 76ers trade. The trades that involve actual risk, McHale messes up every time. I hope he doesn't mess it up this years pick either.

you lost points with your first sentence " helped us is wrong" - Correct grammar would have been ARE wrong. Syntax error, bro.

Secondly, Jefferson - Oden? Are you serious? They are opposits. Jefferson is an amazing offensive player, who is near unstoppable with questionalbe defence, whilst Oden is a defensive presence, and little offensive game. Another one in the loss column for you. Pekovic - Aldridge? Pekovic has played how many NBA games? 0? No comparison.
Trades with risk? I'd be one to say, trading away the frachises only true franchise player is a risk. And how did that fail? We have a franshise player for the future in Al Jefferson, and some nice role players like Ryan Gomes and Sebastian Telfair. We also got rid of cap space with Theo's expring, and managed to turn a failed experiment from that trade, Gerald Green, into a 2nd rounder and a TPE.


Also, Mario Chalmers moving the Heat into 7th place in the west would be quite a feat considering the team jsut got Wade back, as well as adding beasley, and that Miami is plated firmly on the east coast.

Me: 1

You: -3

[revprodeji]

Firing McHale and bringing in a new GM would automatically mean a new coach. No self-respecting GM would keep Wittman.

[Worm Guts]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.

I don't want to dismiss any of those trades, they were good, but when is the last time McHale won a trade purely on talent, not on contracts or draft picks. It's too early to evaluate to the Love-Mayo trade, before that I think the last trade that made us a better team was the Sprewell trade and that was 5 years ago.
Beyond that I could ask when is the last time McHale made a good draft pick or good had a good free agent signing?

[walchy]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.

I don't want to dismiss any of those trades, they were good, but when is the last time McHale won a trade purely on talent, not on contracts or draft picks. It's too early to evaluate to the Love-Mayo trade, before that I think the last trade that made us a better team was the Sprewell trade and that was 5 years ago.
Beyond that I could ask when is the last time McHale made a good draft pick or good had a good free agent signing?

not every trade is won on talent, and if you think they are thats just small mindedness.
Im not saying mchale is a great GM by any means, but to say he hasnt made some good moves int he last few years is ignorant. He has turned a roster of mostly spare parts, and oversized contracts surrounding ONE superstar with a ginnormous contract into a plethora of draft choices, young talent and expiring contracts. He has (so far) done a good job at reubilding this team, and to say otherwise should earn you demotion from your mod position. good day sir!

[Worm Guts]

I don't want to dismiss any of those trades, they were good, but when is the last time McHale won a trade purely on talent, not on contracts or draft picks. It's too early to evaluate to the Love-Mayo trade, before that I think the last trade that made us a better team was the Sprewell trade and that was 5 years ago.
Beyond that I could ask when is the last time McHale made a good draft pick or good had a good free agent signing?

not every trade is won on talent, and if you think they are thats just small mindedness.
Im not saying mchale is a great GM by any means, but to say he hasnt made some good moves int he last few years is ignorant. He has turned a roster of mostly spare parts, and oversized contracts surrounding ONE superstar with a ginnormous contract into a plethora of draft choices, young talent and expiring contracts. He has (so far) done a good job at reubilding this team, and to say otherwise should earn you demotion from your mod position. good day sir!

I specifically mentioned that some of the moves he made were good but at some point cap space and draft picks need to be turned into talent. It's scary to think how long it's been since McHale has made a positive move based on talent.

[walchy]

well to get talent, you need to give up
a - draft picks
b - cap space
c - established talent
4 - young talent


We have 3 of those things, so its a matter of time before he can make a move for big talent. When you look at what hes had to work with over the past few years, essentially since the downfall of the Garnett era (i think we should refer to it as that. Ending in the season we made the conference finals. afterwoods it was the garnett EFP [Extended Farewell Party]). anyways, if you look at the talent hes had to trade since then, he has done fairly well. Considering most of that team (17 played for us that season) are no longer in the NBA (2 are signed this season to teams, KG and Mad Dogg). So to say he has made poor trades is poor aknowledgement. He has done a god job, and i expect a big move in the next 18 months to turn us into a playoff team.

[Worm Guts]

well to get talent, you need to give up
a - draft picks
b - cap space
c - established talent
4 - young talent


We have 3 of those things, so its a matter of time before he can make a move for big talent. When you look at what hes had to work with over the past few years, essentially since the downfall of the Garnett era (i think we should refer to it as that. Ending in the season we made the conference finals. afterwoods it was the garnett EFP [Extended Farewell Party]). anyways, if you look at the talent hes had to trade since then, he has done fairly well. Considering most of that team (17 played for us that season) are no longer in the NBA (2 are signed this season to teams, KG and Mad Dogg). So to say he has made poor trades is poor aknowledgement. He has done a god job, and i expect a big move in the next 18 months to turn us into a playoff team.

Saying he didn't have much to work with is a terrible excuse, since that would also be his fault. He's been here for 13 years. Not having much to work with still wouldn't excuse trading away draft picks for bad players like Ricky Davis or Marko Jaric. It doesn't excuse giving bad contracts to Mike James or Troy Hudson or Trenton Hassell.
I'd also say possibly the biggest part of rebuilding is drafting. When you pick in the lottery, you have to take advantage. Brewer, Foye, and McCants were all the wrong pick. He needs to be right on Love or I don't know how you can keep him around.

[walchy]

he made some bad signings in the past, but since that peaking of the team, he has been an overal good GM aside from a few botched picks (in retrospect). At the time, Mccants and Granger were both seen as the right pick. Foye was seen as equal bt some to Roy, and Brewer has played one season.
On the note of his FORMER bad signings, trades etc,its easy to point out the bad things he has done, but which GMs havnt made a few bad moves?
He has obviously matured as a GM, and seems to be doing a good job rebuilding this team after the loss of KG.

[Worm Guts]

Nobody saw Foye as an equal Roy besides McHale, at least nobody I heard. The consensus was that both Roy and Gay were better. Same with McCants and Granger, I never heard anyone who thought McCants was better than Granger. Even those players were considered close, it's McHale job to evaluate player talent and he got it wrong

[C.lupus]

I have to wonder how much involvement Mchale had in most of those deals. I mean, he doesn't have as much authority in GM decisions as he used to since bringing in a few other guys, not to mention that when he did have full control for many years he often made MANY mistakes.

Do you think Mchale should remain the GM of the Minnesota Timberwolves?

I think this is another good reason to axe Wittman before McHale (if, as the OP, stated, we can only pick one). The McHale Factor is diluted now that decisions are made by a team.

Firing McHale and bringing in a new GM would automatically mean a new coach. No self-respecting GM would keep Wittman.

This is the best argument yet for firing McHale.

[cpfsf]

you lost points with your first sentence " helped us is wrong" - Correct grammar would have been ARE wrong. Syntax error, bro.

Secondly, Jefferson - Oden? Are you serious? They are opposits. Jefferson is an amazing offensive player, who is near unstoppable with questionalbe defence, whilst Oden is a defensive presence, and little offensive game. Another one in the loss column for you. Pekovic - Aldridge? Pekovic has played how many NBA games? 0? No comparison.
Trades with risk? I'd be one to say, trading away the frachises only true franchise player is a risk. And how did that fail? We have a franshise player for the future in Al Jefferson, and some nice role players like Ryan Gomes and Sebastian Telfair. We also got rid of cap space with Theo's expring, and managed to turn a failed experiment from that trade, Gerald Green, into a 2nd rounder and a TPE.


Also, Mario Chalmers moving the Heat into 7th place in the west would be quite a feat considering the team jsut got Wade back, as well as adding beasley, and that Miami is plated firmly on the east coast.

Me: 1

You: -3

I included Pekovic because I don't know who we will draft in 2009 or pick up during free agency (I would prefer that Jefferson play power forward). I don't care if Pekovic never played an NBA game before as long as he can play good basketball. Let Pekovic start if he's good enough to start (otherwise have him come off the bench).

I'm really arguing that McHale messes up every draft day trade. Trading for Big Al was good, but really it was the only thing he could do. However, I'm arguing that McHale messes up on draft day trades.

Anyway, I never said Chalmers did it alone, I said he contributed to Miami winning. He's proven he can distribute and play great defense.

Firing McHale and bringing in a new GM would automatically mean a new coach. No self-respecting GM would keep Wittman.

I would have preferred McHale to be fired before the 2008 draft. I would want Wittman to be fired if he failed to produce some wins.

[walchy]

you lost points with your first sentence " helped us is wrong" - Correct grammar would have been ARE wrong. Syntax error, bro.

Secondly, Jefferson - Oden? Are you serious? They are opposits. Jefferson is an amazing offensive player, who is near unstoppable with questionalbe defence, whilst Oden is a defensive presence, and little offensive game. Another one in the loss column for you. Pekovic - Aldridge? Pekovic has played how many NBA games? 0? No comparison.
Trades with risk? I'd be one to say, trading away the frachises only true franchise player is a risk. And how did that fail? We have a franshise player for the future in Al Jefferson, and some nice role players like Ryan Gomes and Sebastian Telfair. We also got rid of cap space with Theo's expring, and managed to turn a failed experiment from that trade, Gerald Green, into a 2nd rounder and a TPE.


Also, Mario Chalmers moving the Heat into 7th place in the west would be quite a feat considering the team jsut got Wade back, as well as adding beasley, and that Miami is plated firmly on the east coast.

Me: 1

You: -3

I included Pekovic because I don't know who we will draft in 2009 or pick up during free agency (I would prefer that Jefferson play power forward). I don't care if Pekovic never played an NBA game before as long as he can play good basketball. Let Pekovic start if he's good enough to start (otherwise have him come off the bench).

I'm really arguing that McHale messes up every draft day trade. Trading for Big Al was good, but really it was the only thing he could do. However, I'm arguing that McHale messes up on draft day trades.

Anyway, I never said Chalmers did it alone, I said he contributed to Miami winning. He's proven he can distribute and play great defense.

Im obviously in the minority here, but if we had a coach who defined roles we would be the runaway winners in the mayo love trade. Love is a great talent. He might not be the most athletic player, but he has an amazing amount of skill, and once he improves his defensive IQ, he will be an amazing player. Miller is a great shooter, not to mention a great all round player. The problem is, we've got the team playing a completely different game plan every game. Wittman's coaching style reminds me of the simpsons episode where Homer coaches the football team with the electric football game... "Randy, you bring it down court, dribble in a circle and pass it to shad. Shad, take a shot when the man is in your face. I want you guys to repeat this 4 times. Then i can look like i know what im doing by pulling you Shad, and having an angry look on my face. It'd help if you'd look sad when i do it, ok? Awesome, hands in fellas wolves on 3"