hypocrite(s)

[shrink]

My point is, that if you give any second rounder 30 mpg, and put him in a back court with Dwayne Wade getting lots of attention and handling half the PG job, ANY second rounder could put up Chalmers numbers. Blaming McHale like we missed out on some big lottery pick is making an unwarranted leap about the talent of Mario Chalmers.

Well, my man Quinn is in the same situation as Chalmers, his numbers are better, and he wasn't even drafted!

I'm sorry for bringing this back, but this is so ridiculous I just have to respond.

Chris Quinn stats: 7.2 ppg on 42.4% FG%, 1.4 rpg, 2.3 apg, 0.4 spg in 19:30 mpg
Mario Chalmers stats: 8.9 ppg on 41.9% FG%, 2.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.1 spg in 30:11 mpg

Explain to me how exactly Quinn's numbers are better?

Let's see, Chalmers is 3 years younger than Quinn, but:
1) he outplayed him (and Banks) for a starting position in the camp
2) he produced better stats despite being a rookie (Quinn and Banks are 3-year veterans)
3) he plays better defense, again despite being a rookie (a rare feat)

I think Mario plays like a 3rd best point-guard from this year's draft right now (behind Rose and Westbrook) and this is pretty impressive, considering his draft position. Also he's not a liability on the floor like most rookies because of his defense and his +/- numbers confirm this:
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809MIA.HTM
To say that any second rounder could put up Chalmers production playing alongside Wade is just plain dumb, cause he earned this gig by outplaying veteran point-guards in camp and proving time and time again that he can be a stating caliber player in this league despite his age and inexpirience.

I disagree. I maintain that its a pretty easy role playing PG alongside all the attention Dwayne Wade gets.

How are Quinn's numbers worse? Here's the stats:

Chalmers: 30.2 mpg, 8.6 PPG, FG 41.1%, 3P 35.6%, FT 64.9%, 4.4 APG, 2.6 RPG, 2.1 SPG, 1.75 TO.
C. Quinn: 20.1 mpg, 7.4 PPG, FG 42.7%, 3P 48.8%, FT 93.3%, 2.3 APG, 1.5 RPG, 0.4 SPG, 0.43 TO.

... and I don't like extrapolating, but if Quinn was getting 30.2 mpg it would boost his numbers 50%

C Quinn.: 30.2 mpg, 11.1 PPG, FG 42.7%, 3P 48.8%, FT 93.3%, 3.5 APG, 2.3 RPG, 0.6 SPG, 0.65 TO

It's odd that you seem to want to talk stats, and your case for Wade is all about "but he's a rookie"

1. Why do you give him so much credit for winning the starting job in Miami? He had to beat out Quinn (3rd rounder - lol), Banks (we know how bad he is), and an injured Shawn Livingston. You can't argue how bad Quinn is, then turn around and praise Chalmers for beating him out to start.

2. blah blah blah .. he's a rookie. Again, he beat out scrubs, even if they are 3-year vets. They don't give you extra points in the NBA if they come from a rookie, or devalue Quinn's numbers

3. I don't know about Chris Quinn's defense (he is certainly off the radar), but again, you give Chalmers extra credit because he's a rookie. Again, no great scorers that Corey Brewer had to defend last year said, "I'll throw up a couple bricks, since I'm playing a rookie."

I'll flat out say that at the time of the trade, Chalmers would have been destined to be our fourth string PG, behind Foye, Telfair (who it seems we wanted to keep because of his knowledge of the wolves and price), and Jaric. And any of those guys would put up better numbers than Chalmers in the easy MIA situation. We got cash, and we got two future 2nd rounders.

[SSUBluesman]

Shrink is absolutely right. The McHale Haters are at it again, making a big deal out of giving away a 2nd rounder who has been a productive rookie. Those types of players are everywhere, just look at McHale's own draft record to see this. There's far more Michael Redd's than there are Bracey Wright's, that's for sure. In fact, it's so easy to get productive players from the 2nd round that it makes more sense to give away 1sts and build around 2nd rounders (Hey, I bet that was the logic behind the Joe Smith fiasco!). I'm sure the McHale Haters are all upset about how silly they look criticizing the Mayo/Love deal, which has that overrated chucker shooting under 40% and riding the bench at the end of games.

He's also right about how much better Wade makes the people around him. In fact, one time while he was standing next to Wade he presented an argument that was halfway reasonable and logical!!!

[Tirion]

I disagree. I maintain that its a pretty easy role playing PG alongside all the attention Dwayne Wade gets.

How are Quinn's numbers worse? Here's the stats:

Chalmers: 30.2 mpg, 8.6 PPG, FG 41.1%, 3P 35.6%, FT 64.9%, 4.4 APG, 2.6 RPG, 2.1 SPG, 1.75 TO.
C. Quinn: 20.1 mpg, 7.4 PPG, FG 42.7%, 3P 48.8%, FT 93.3%, 2.3 APG, 1.5 RPG, 0.4 SPG, 0.43 TO.

... and I don't like extrapolating, but if Quinn was getting 30.2 mpg it would boost his numbers 50%

C Quinn.: 30.2 mpg, 11.1 PPG, FG 42.7%, 3P 48.8%, FT 93.3%, 3.5 APG, 2.3 RPG, 0.6 SPG, 0.65 TO

Yeah, and if only pigs could fly. You're just digging yourself deeper in the hole. If you truly believe that Quinn could post that kind of #s just because of PT increase you're fooling yourself. Remember first, that he's a sub and he plays against other team second unit. And second, there is a reason he's a sub behind Mario, that reason is defense and athletism. You know two very important things for a NBA player.

1. Why do you give him so much credit for winning the starting job in Miami? He had to beat out Quinn (3rd rounder - lol), Banks (we know how bad he is), and an injured Shawn Livingston. You can't argue how bad Quinn is, then turn around and praise Chalmers for beating him out to start.

How many rookies win starting jobs straight out of the camp? Rose, Mr. #1 pick and that's all. Last year - Durant.

2. blah blah blah .. he's a rookie. Again, he beat out scrubs, even if they are 3-year vets. They don't give you extra points in the NBA if they come from a rookie, or devalue Quinn's numbers

Why the hell our own Kevin Love can't beat superscrub Collins for the starting spot? Why most rookies usually get so little PT? Cause they are a liability on the floor most of the time plain and simple. They forget the plays, lose their defensive assighments, etc. A rookie who isn't a liability is usually a very good player in the future.

3. I don't know about Chris Quinn's defense (he is certainly off the radar), but again, you give Chalmers extra credit because he's a rookie.

I dunno, look at his steals numbers, look at his +/- stats, or maybe just watch a game sometime?

I'll flat out say that at the time of the trade, Chalmers would have been destined to be our fourth string PG, behind Foye, Telfair (who it seems we wanted to keep because of his knowledge of the wolves and price), and Jaric. And any of those guys would put up better numbers than Chalmers in the easy MIA situation. We got cash, and we got two future 2nd rounders.

And maybe he would be starting right now, shifting Foye to his natural position and defending opposing PGs better than anyone else on our roster.

[shrink]

Remember first, that he's a sub and he plays against other team second unit.

You understand that Chalmers plays with MIA's FIRST unit alongside .. what's his name? .. Dwayne Wade?

Why do you give him so much credit for winning the starting job in Miami? He had to beat out Quinn (3rd rounder - lol), Banks (we know how bad he is), and an injured Shawn Livingston. You can't argue how bad Quinn is, then turn around and praise Chalmers for beating him out to start.

How many rookies win starting jobs straight out of the camp? Rose, Mr. #1 pick and that's all. Last year - Durant.

Chalmers benefited because MIA was unable to fill its gaping hole. You may remember that they went over the lux to sign an injured Shawn Livingston -- and that wasn't because they thought, "Hey, now that we have Chalmers, we have our starter!"

I dunno, look at his steals numbers, look at his +/- stats, or maybe just watch a game sometime?

If you look at Chalmers steals, do you look at his turnovers too?

And by the way, +/- doesn't make you a good player .. it means you are in a good 5-man situation. One of the worst people in the NBA in +/- last year was Al Jefferson.. Does +/- mean Chalmers is better than Al Jefferson?

I'll flat out say that at the time of the trade, Chalmers would have been destined to be our fourth string PG, behind Foye, Telfair (who it seems we wanted to keep because of his knowledge of the wolves and price), and Jaric. And any of those guys would put up better numbers than Chalmers in the easy MIA situation. We got cash, and we got two future 2nd rounders.

And maybe he would be starting right now, shifting Foye to his natural position and defending opposing PGs better than anyone else on our roster.

Sure, Chalmers would look great right after we got Dwayne Wade on the Wolves.

I only wish we could predict big future trades at the time of the draft, as well as you seem to see it for the guy that would have been our fourth PG.

Look, Chalmers is putting up mediocre numbers in an easy situation with no competition for his job. If he wasn't a rookie, or more correctly here, a rookie that McHale could have had here, people wouldn't be talking about Chalmers.

[Devilzsidewalk]

what about his steals - 6th in the NBA in only 30 mpg

[shrink]

And Wade is 7th in assists, 1st in TO's. Does it sound like they are relying on Super-Mario?

[Worm Guts]

You understand that Chalmers plays with MIA's FIRST unit alongside .. what's his name? .. Dwayne Wade?

You understand that Chalmers is starting and playing more minutes than Chris Quinn which means Miami has decided he's the better player.

Chalmers benefited because MIA was unable to fill its gaping hole. You may remember that they went over the lux to sign an injured Shawn Livingston -- and that wasn't because they thought, "Hey, now that we have Chalmers, we have our starter!"

Livingston was signed because of his upside, not because they thought he could offer immediate help. Still Miami had a huge hole point guard, but Chalmers is a 2nd round pick starting immediately. That's almost unheard of. He's already had a more accomplished career than the majority of 2nd round picks.

I'll flat out say that at the time of the trade, Chalmers would have been destined to be our fourth string PG, behind Foye, Telfair (who it seems we wanted to keep because of his knowledge of the wolves and price), and Jaric. And any of those guys would put up better numbers than Chalmers in the easy MIA situation. We got cash, and we got two future 2nd rounders.

That's a poor excuse for the trade. Even if they didn't take Chalmers, trading a high 2nd rounder for 2 mid to late 2nd rounders the following year is bad value.

Look, Chalmers is putting up mediocre numbers in an easy situation with no competition for his job. If he wasn't a rookie, or more correctly here, a rookie that McHale could have had here, people wouldn't be talking about Chalmers.

That's probably true but it doesn't change anything. The Wolves had a chance at taking a rotation player in the 2nd round, instead they traded the pick for poor value. That's a bad trade.

[shrink]

You understand that Chalmers plays with MIA's FIRST unit alongside .. what's his name? .. Dwayne Wade?

You understand that Chalmers is starting and playing more minutes than Chris Quinn which means Miami has decided he's the better player.

So is that the definition of being a good NBA player? The ability to beat out Chris Quinn on a depth chart?

Chalmers is benefitting because MIA's hole at PG is even greater than ours at center. MIA's position is so bad that their super "PG" doesn't even do much of a PG role, with Wade handling most traditional PG responsibilities while he also excels handling all the SG work at the same time. Even alongside Wade, Chalmers open shots fall at a disturbingly bad rate.

Chalmers is media-hype. A coalescence of extreme opportunity with mediocre second-round talent (passed on by many many teams). People want to make a big story out of him because he's a second round rookie -- ignoring so-so stats in the easiest of starting jobs in the NBA.

[Worm Guts]

So is that the definition of being a good NBA player? The ability to beat out Chris Quinn on a depth chart?.

No but you keep comparing them. Chalmers is the better player right now and actually has an upside.

Chalmers is benefitting because MIA's hole at PG is even greater than ours at center. MIA's position is so bad that their super "PG" doesn't even do much of a PG role, with Wade handling most traditional PG responsibilities while he also excels handling all the SG work at the same time. Even alongside Wade, Chalmers open shots fall at a disturbingly bad rate.

Chalmers is media-hype. A coalescence of extreme opportunity with mediocre second-round talent (passed on by many many teams). People want to make a big story out of him because he's a second round rookie -- ignoring so-so stats in the easiest of starting jobs in the NBA.

I'm not sure any of that is relevant. Nobody is saying that Chalmers is an All-Star, just a good player for a 2nd round pick and that McHale made a mistake by giving him away.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

Shrink, just shut up.

Defending something called Chris Quinn is just dumb. Especially comparing an NBA rookie PG, which is one of the hardest positions to adapt to in the NBA, to a guy thats been in the league for atleast 2 years.

Having the opportunity to keep Chalmers wouldve been great. But that draft night was such a disaster when we had 3 great picks to turn this team around, and of course, McFail screwed it up. Im not sold on Peckovic either, i'd of gone a different direction. He's only averaging 3 rebounds overseas I read.

[funkatron101]

Shrink, just shut up.

Defending something called Chris Quinn is just dumb. Especially comparing an NBA rookie PG, which is one of the hardest positions to adapt to in the NBA, to a guy thats been in the league for atleast 2 years.

Having the opportunity to keep Chalmers wouldve been great. But that draft night was such a disaster when we had 3 great picks to turn this team around, and of course, McFail screwed it up. Im not sold on Peckovic either, i'd of gone a different direction. He's only averaging 3 rebounds overseas I read.

I prefer his posts over yours any day of the week. At least he has something insightful to say, instead of the recursive loop of "McFail sucks" over and over again.

[Devilzsidewalk]

well let's not lose our minds over this, but bottom line is if nothing else, Chalmers is a better backup PG for the Wolves as he's a superior defender and shooter than Telfair and we could've saved money by having him be our backup and letting Bassy walk.

I'm assuming they sold that pick for financial reasons, but sure seems like they ended up spending more money for a talent downgrade when they re-signed Telfair a month after the draft.

[Devilzsidewalk]

by the way I like being the only board where people don't verbally abuse eachother, lets not ruin a good thing

everybody hold hands

[C.lupus]

by the way I like being the only board where people don't verbally abuse eachother, lets not ruin a good thing

everybody hold hands

+1

[shrink]

Ironically, Chalmers is Marcus Banks with more hype.

The only people who will be talking about this guy next year are MIN posters.

[Worm Guts]

Ironically, Chalmers is Marcus Banks with more hype.

Not really comparable at all. They play different styles, Chalmers is owed about 10 million dollars less, and based on playing time Chalmers is already much better.

[cpfsf]

Mario Chalmers who is only 22 years old and after only 19 games in the NBA...
has proven he can play solid defense
He leads all rookies in steals 2.1
He is second among rookies in assists 4.5 (second only to Derrick Rose)

Not an elite point guard, but definitely a legit point guard who would have filled a need up here in Minnesota.

[revprodeji]

chalmers is nothing like banks. Weird analogy.

Chalmers reminds me of Greg Anthony. Not a starter, but a very productive bench pg that could be a key piece for a long time. I was and still am bothered by that move.

[shrink]

I mentioned Banks because it seems like to me he was a guy that got too much publicity entering the league, way to much credit for an extra steal in his time on the floor, and not enough attention for his questionable PG skills.

I don't think there is any other team in the league where Chalmers would be a starter. At a minimum, I think its way too early to be annointing this guy as legit. Maybe he will become so (I don't think so), but put him on a different team without Wade doing his job for him, and he's a 12 mpg guy trying to crack a rotation.