OJ Mayo compares best with Ben Gordon

[stop-n-pop]

I utterly disagree with your "abso-frickin-lutely" statement. This issue is still debatable and it should be. Because neither player is a complete player yet. It is a matter of how the teams are using the player, and what weaknesses they have. Give this issue time before we debate it.

As Canis has said numerous times. Love vs Lopez and Mayo vs Foye. That is the debate. Not Love vs mayo.

One of the things that I think gets lost in the trade is the fact that if it doesn't go down the Wolves are looking at a front line rotation of Big Al, Madsen, Toine, and Smith. They needed a front court player in a bad way and I think there was a realistic assumption that they had more in terms of back court play (Foye, Shaddy, Brewer, Bassy) than they did up front next to their best player. With the way Foye and Bassy have been playing of late this doesn't seem as stupid as it once did but I do think it shows that the Wolves were in the market for a big man if they couldn't land Rose. Of course, they did take Mayo so it doesn't follow all the way through but I think they were set on making a deal from the get-go and kind of backed into it happening at the last minute.

[Jonathan Watters]

I utterly disagree with your "abso-frickin-lutely" statement. This issue is still debatable and it should be. Because neither player is a complete player yet.

It has been a while since I've been forced to quote myself. Note the bolded part of the quote...

And that's what this all comes down to - does the trade look bad right now? If your answer to this question isn't "abso-frickin-lutely!", you probably ought to get your head checked.

It is a matter of how the teams are using the player, and what weaknesses they have. Give this issue time before we debate it.

THe problem is that you want to debate it. There is no debating it. Maybe there will be down the road (it certainly doesn't look that way at the moment), but right now there is no debate. There's no reason to get all up in arms about it. Love is a nice player, just like Foye is a nice player. Were they the right picks? That's highly unlikely at this stage, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with admitting it.

As Canis has said numerous times. Love vs Lopez and Mayo vs Foye. That is the debate. Not Love vs mayo.

I don't know why you think this is the debate. The Wolves have a gaping hole at the wing, were in no position to be drafting for need, and they absolutely didn't draft for need anyways. Love is a horrible fit with the Wolves' one legit building block (the coaches obviously think this too, or they would play together a heck of a lot more often).

[horaceworthy]

Jonathan, you continue to take whatever statements you disagree with and stretch them to illogical extremes, although the vibe was slightly less douchey in the last post, so maybe common ground is closer than either of us would care to admit.

What do you expect people to do after a half decade of near-constant mistakes? Sit on their hands and smile while the Timberwolf shoots 40% from the field over the first month and sits the majority of the time because he can't play with the team's one legitimate piece and the guy he was traded for is averaging 20 ppg from day one? That's more than just a little much.

It is a little much, which is why I never set that expectation. It has been very frustrating for Wolves fans ever since the WCF run. I just don't think it's fair to make Love the whipping boy for that "half decade of near-constant mistakes."

If you say that you said nothing about conspiracy, well I say people aren't ragging on Love. They are merely pointing out that there is quite a big difference between Love and Mayo at this stage. If you can't handle that being pointed out, there's a fair chance you are going to be pretty ticked off for the next say, decade or so. Because Love vs Mayo is going to be a topic of conversation again, again, and again. As it should be.

I didn't say anything of a conspiracy. You're the one that brought that word into play. I also never said it shouldn't be a topic of conversation, I just wish it wasn't the topic of conversation, which is what seems to happen whenever talk turns to the Wolves in the local media.

And that's what this all comes down to - does the trade look bad right now? If your answer to this question isn't "abso-frickin-lutely!", you probably ought to get your head checked.

The trade definitely looks bad right now. I don't recall saying otherwise. I just don't think that Love is the reason the trade looks so bad. He's about lived up to my expectations for him this year, with the major area of exception being his FG%. Mayo's been about what I expected him to be, aside from shooting the ball a bit better than I expected and showing a nice floater that's allowed him to become a more effective finisher in traffic than I saw at USC. The major reason I see the trade as a failure thus far is due to the reticence and ineffective play of Mike Miller.

You can comment on whatever you want. But that also gives me the right to nail you to the wall when your comments are paranoid and illogical, which they most certainly were.

So, are you the pot or the kettle in this scenario?

That's great.

I'm interested in Love vs Mayo, and a realistic view on where this franchise stands - and that obviously bothers you quite a bit. I doubt you'd have any troubles discussing Mayo-Love if the tables were turned and Minnesota got the better end of the deal...

I'm interested in a realistic view of where this franchise stands as well, which is why I'm less interested in the hypothetical roster that coulda shoulda woulda been put together and more interested in how the actual roster is playing. Love vs. Mayo is a fine topic for discussion down the road, I just don't see the use in spending so much time dwelling on it when the disparity between the two is so obvious. All that leads to is Mayo getting hyped into something he isn't and people taking their frustration over how McHale's steered this franchise out on Love. If they were real and balanced conversations about the two players I'd be fine with it, but too often it turns into just taking an extreme stance on the two players to support an argument about McHale's incompetence that really doesn't need any artificial bolstering. I just don't see the value in it unless something about the situation changes. Forming a realistic view of where the franchise stands doesn't bother me at all. I guess that's why I'm less interested in the what might have been than some.

If the tables were turned and Minnesota got the better end of the deal I probably would spend less time talking about it. Any time spent talking about it would probably be more of a sigh of relief than gloating. As a Minnesota sports fan, born and raised, when things are going well I'm typically more concerned about when and where the other shoe is going to drop, since that's what's always happened. After watching KG/Marbury/Googs unravel and being in attendance when Gary Anderson missed his only field goal of the season, I've learned my lesson about gloating.

[john2jer]

Seriously, we're still arguing about this?

[stop-n-pop]

But they're an all-around bad team with a surprising lack of talent. Love has the 5th most minutes on the squad and he is playing next to Jefferson:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN11.HTM#5man

8 of his top 10 5-man rotations are with Big Al. It certainly will be a learning curve and there will always be defensive issues, but I don't think you can write off Love as being ill-fit for this squad this early. If this is a question of fit, as you state, then shouldn't the point about Love v. Lopez be further enforced? If he doesn't fit the position then isn't the missed pick a natural center? And if you think that Mayo was the superior player, why did they feel like they could make the deal? I think Randy Foye plays a large part in that answer.

[Devilzsidewalk]

this is serious business

[Jonathan Watters]

Jonathan, you continue to take whatever statements you disagree with and stretch them to illogical extremes, although the vibe was slightly less douchey in the last post, so maybe common ground is closer than either of us would care to admit.

I don't think anything I've said has been illogical. I think I made a valid point about the article, and I think you were going to disagree with it no matter what my point was, because of the conclusion you had already drawn.

It is a little much, which is why I never set that expectation. It has been very frustrating for Wolves fans ever since the WCF run. I just don't think it's fair to make Love the whipping boy for that "half decade of near-constant mistakes."

Sorry, you did set that expectation when you start making up conclusions out of thin air and accuse people who have spoken out against the trade (which, given your comments below, you can see a rationale for) of having already written Love off.

I didn't say anything of a conspiracy. You're the one that brought that word into play. I also never said it shouldn't be a topic of conversation, I just wish it wasn't the topic of conversation, which is what seems to happen whenever talk turns to the Wolves in the local media.

And once again, I'll say that Love-Mayo is going to be a conversation topic for the indefinite future. You might as well get used to it, and hope that Love figures it out.

The trade definitely looks bad right now. I don't recall saying otherwise. I just don't think that Love is the reason the trade looks so bad. He's about lived up to my expectations for him this year, with the major area of exception being his FG%. Mayo's been about what I expected him to be, aside from shooting the ball a bit better than I expected and showing a nice floater that's allowed him to become a more effective finisher in traffic than I saw at USC. The major reason I see the trade as a failure thus far is due to the reticence and ineffective play of Mike Miller.

So basically what you are saying is that you expected the Wolves to draft an inferior player. I guess I can agree with that - given the recent history, who wouldn't expect such an outcome?

So, are you the pot or the kettle in this scenario?

Please point out where I've been paranoid or illogical. I think I've stated my case quite clearly, and it just happens to be a case that is somewhat embarrassing for you. Next time read the article being commented on instead of jumping to conclusions, and you might not be embarrassed.

That's great.
I'm interested in a realistic view of where this franchise stands as well, which is why I'm less interested in the hypothetical roster that coulda shoulda woulda been put together and more interested in how the actual roster is playing. Love vs. Mayo is a fine topic for discussion down the road, I just don't see the use in spending so much time dwelling on it when the disparity between the two is so obvious.

Well, this is a start - you admit the disparity. Everything else is just word games at this point...

All that leads to is Mayo getting hyped into something he isn't and people taking their frustration over how McHale's steered this franchise out on Love. If they were real and balanced conversations about the two players I'd be fine with it, but too often it turns into just taking an extreme stance on the two players to support an argument about McHale's incompetence that really doesn't need any artificial bolstering. I just don't see the value in it unless something about the situation changes. Forming a realistic view of where the franchise stands doesn't bother me at all. I guess that's why I'm less interested in the what might have been than some.

Ironically, the point I originally made in this thread was bringing up a lack of "balance" in the original article. There's no "balance" in anything that involves changing an author's conclusion and using that to start a rant on how wrong it is that everybody's already written Kevin Love off.

If the tables were turned and Minnesota got the better end of the deal I probably would spend less time talking about it. Any time spent talking about it would probably be more of a sigh of relief than gloating. As a Minnesota sports fan, born and raised, when things are going well I'm typically more concerned about when and where the other shoe is going to drop, since that's what's always happened. After watching KG/Marbury/Googs unravel and being in attendance when Gary Anderson missed his only field goal of the season, I've learned my lesson about gloating.

Yeah, it hasn't been very pretty up here since the Twins glory days. Gophers were pretty good there for a while, but that never happened...

[younggunsmn]

The 2 biggest philosophical issues I had with the Mayo trade were:

1. Quality over quantity. The old axiom of the team getting the best player in the deal usually winning the trade applies in spades here. Love/miller will never be a cornerstone player, just supporting pieces.

2. Building incrementally instead of trying to patch holes and make a big leap in one year.
This trade reeks of impatience. Yes we lacked size inside. So what. There was no way to reasonably expect to compete for a playoff berth in '08-09 when it took 49 wins to make the playoffs in '07-'08. Stopgaps like Booth, a beastly chris richard, david harrison, even cookie for small ball would've worked fine this year and not hindered development. Then for '09 we have 3 or 4 first rounders and 10-12 million in cap space to find a center. Or we could've drafted deandre jordan instead of selling #34 overall pick for 2 million and 2 worthless '09 second rounders.

Mayo isn't the 2nd coming of wade, but he's a damn good outside shooter and creative scorer who consciously looks for open teammates (Which also separates him from ben gordon). He's working on his game and at his weaknesses. He got foye in the popcorn machine and converted 2 free throws the other night. He needs to remember to do that more often instead of relying on his athleticism to make the highlight reel play all the time. Memphis's lack of another outside shooter or a low post threat doesn't help him much. Too many nice passes from him result in bricks by conley or lowry or fumbles by gasol.

Seeing Foye playing so well makes me a little ill because I have images of a new big 3 of mayo, foye, and Al. 2 absolutely deadly outside scorers who can handle the ball well, and an unstoppable post player. The biggest red flag i've seen with miller is his inability to create his own shot or get his shot off. dude looks like he's lost 3 steps from the guy i remember who played at florida.

[Jonathan Watters]

But they're an all-around bad team with a surprising lack of talent. Love has the 5th most minutes on the squad and he is playing next to Jefferson:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN11.HTM#5man

8 of his top 10 5-man rotations are with Big Al. It certainly will be a learning curve and there will always be defensive issues, but I don't think you can write off Love as being ill-fit for this squad this early.

I think the defensive issues speak for themselves, and extremely unlikely to ever be resolved to the point where it wouldn't be a serious issue.

If this is a question of fit, as you state, then shouldn't the point about Love v. Lopez be further enforced? If he doesn't fit the position then isn't the missed pick a natural center? And if you think that Mayo was the superior player, why did they feel like they could make the deal?

Well, I was always on the Lopez bandwagon. I think he'd be a much better fit than Love, and have always stated so. People's issues with him before the draft certainly look ridiculous now, and in truth always have been.

And as for why Minny thought they could make the deal, that would be the question of the hour. Why did they think they could draft Foye over Roy? Brewer over half a dozen players?

I think Randy Foye plays a large part in that answer.

And I think a team deciding to take an inferior prospect because of Randy Foye when so far away from serious contention is just as ridiculous as any of the ridiculous moves that have been made in recent drafts...

[SSUBluesman]

Nah, the issue I have with that is there were numerous concerns about Lopez. Below avg rebounder, same defensive issues as love, etc, etc. (Jim Peterson blocked him)

The last part doesn't surprise me as Lopez looked scared and tentative around the rim early on (in the little that I saw at least). Rebounding and defense didn't concern me really since he's 7 feet, can move, and can track the ball and get it in his hands. His role also gave him a bit of a pass for those things in college as well.

I never followed the workouts closely, but I would imagine events like you mentioned and his early timidness might have led to some shaky showings and lowering of stock.