Miller vs Williams.

[shrink]

Here's an interesting stat.

We all know that Mike Miller can't seem to nail his three's this year, and is shooting 35.9%. However, I noticed his FG% is still 49.0% so I went and broke it down. Mike Miller is shooting 58.4% 2P% this year, which is third in the NBA.

One of these things, is not like the others ...

60.8% Shaquille O'Neal
60.1% Nene Hilario
58.4% Mike Miller
57.4% Andris Biedrins
56.9% Dwight Howard
56.5% Emeka Okafor
56.1% Pau Gasol
55.8% Andrew Bynum
55.9 % David Lee
54.3% Ming Yao
54.3% Paul Millsap
54.0% Amar'e Stoudemire

He's also tied with Jason Kidd at 6.1 RPG as the top rebounding guard, and his RP/40 is much better.

[Jonathan Watters]

JW, one of the Marvin's strengths are his ability to put the ball on the floor. He's not a great mid-range shooter, but he can knockdown the three ball. That's improved this year. He has the ability to play inside or outside, so I don't think getting in Jefferson's way is an issue there.

You've got some fairly severe misconceptions about Williams' game. As a PF, he can put the ball on the floor. As a 3 man? Not so much.

The fact of the matter is that in the halfcourt offense Williams is largely a midrange jumpshooter. He shot the 4th highest percentage of long 2's in the entire league last year. He also made a very good percentage. This is far and away his strength in the halfcourt offense.

He can get out on the break and act like a guard a little, but he's not a "break his man down off the dribble" type of player, at least not as a pure small forward

Childress would be very nice as well, but is he THAT much of an upgrade over Brewer, who showed improvement before getting hurt, that we should spend the money on him?

His PER was nearly DOUBLE Brewer's a season ago. He shot 56% from the floor. How can you seriously ask these questions?

[john2jer]

I asked those questions because I don't know Josh Childress all that well. Thought I mentioned that, but maybe not. If you don't know something about a player, typically a good way to find out more information is to ask if you don't have access to the games at the moment.

You're too funny. You're also contradicting yourself.

Marvin isn't a top-tier midrange jumpshooter, but once again this isn't a guy you start a riot for, especially considering what we already have.

The fact of the matter is that in the halfcourt offense Williams is largely a midrange jumpshooter. He shot the 4th highest percentage of long 2's in the entire league last year. He also made a very good percentage. This is far and away his strength in the halfcourt offense.

[jpatrick]

I agree with the above assessment of Williams' game. I've only seen him 6 or 7 times this year, but his offense seems to come from either open jumpers when the ball is rotated to him or from posting up smaller SFs. I have not seen someone who's taking SFs to the rack or creating alot of offense for others. He has had some big number games this season, so when I watch I want to see something special from him but I've yet to see it. Maybe I've just seen some down games.

Would he be an upgrade? Yes, but the question is at what cost. We obviously can't sign him as a FA this offseason (maybe in 2010), so what would you give up in a trade for him and what salary would he take to give up his FA status in 2010?

[Jonathan Watters]

I asked those questions because I don't know Josh Childress all that well. Thought I mentioned that, but maybe not. If you don't know something about a player, typically a good way to find out more information is to ask if you don't have access to the games at the moment.

You're too funny. You're also contradicting yourself.

Marvin isn't a top-tier midrange jumpshooter, but once again this isn't a guy you start a riot for, especially considering what we already have.

The fact of the matter is that in the halfcourt offense Williams is largely a midrange jumpshooter. He shot the 4th highest percentage of long 2's in the entire league last year. He also made a very good percentage. This is far and away his strength in the halfcourt offense.

That was obviously a typo. Look at the sentence I wrote, using "but" to join two statements. Why would I use "but" if the two statements were essentially in agreement?

So, not funny at all.

What is a laugh riot is that when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary of your position, you completely ignore it and come after me about a typo.

You want me to not be a jerk? Deal with the fact that you were wrong on this one, and stop being a jerk.

[Jonathan Watters]

I asked those questions because I don't know Josh Childress all that well. Thought I mentioned that, but maybe not. If you don't know something about a player, typically a good way to find out more information is to ask if you don't have access to the games at the moment.

Again, it's back to the Ben Gordon vs Randy Foye debate.

Then again, maybe someone can argue that with Williams vs Gomes, but I submit to you that Marvin IS that much of an upgrade, and younger.

You make a obvious attempt to answer your own question immediately after asking it. If you have no idea about Childress and how much better he is than Brewer, why put in the Foye vs Gordon bit? You're obviously attempting to lean a specific direction, and it is a direction that is quite baffling especially if you knew nothing about Childress to begin with.

[john2jer]

Guess I don't see the obvious typo. So you're saying he IS a top mid-range shooter and the typo was the word "ISN'T"?

The funny part is how worked up you get. It's funny.

I don't think I ignored anything. I like Marvin Williams as a player. In my opinion I think he'd be a great fit for the long term as I don't see Gomes or Miller as long term answers for the Wolves. Sorry my opinion doesn't match with yours, suck it up.

Apparently you missed the Ben Gordon vs Randy Foye debate.

But I'll ask it again since you seem to be missing it. I'm not an expert on Josh Childress, I won't even pretend to be. All I can think of is the afro, high socks I believe, and he's kind of versatile. I'm not confident on that though, cause again, I don't know much about it. So since I don't know much about him, I again ask, is he THAT much better than Corey Brewer to spend the money on him when Brewer's on his rookie deal.

The debate about Foye and Gordon was that Gordon MIGHT be a better player than Foye, but not enough so to justify the 10mil+ he turned down the last two years. So, without knowing much about Childress, is this a situation where Childress=Gordon and Brewer=Foye? Or is Childress so much better than Brewer, or what Brewer can become, that we should be spending MLE type money on him? I was hoping someone could answer that question, and maybe provide some reasoning.

Mind giving that a shot?

[Jonathan Watters]

Guess I don't see the obvious typo. So you're saying he IS a top mid-range shooter and the typo was the word "ISN'T"?

Yes. Read the post fully and tell me "isn't" makes sense in that sentence.

I don't think I ignored anything. I like Marvin Williams as a player. In my opinion I think he'd be a great fit for the long term as I don't see Gomes or Miller as long term answers for the Wolves. Sorry my opinion doesn't match with yours, suck it up.

Except that my "opinion" is backed up by evidence that he is, in fact, a midrange jumpshooter and not a guy that is a major threat to take his man off the dribble.

Your "opinion" is just that.

Suck it up and tell me why I shouldn't bristle when you try to equate two opinions that differ so substantially in their validity.

But I'll ask it again since you seem to be missing it. I'm not an expert on Josh Childress, I won't even pretend to be. All I can think of is the afro, high socks I believe, and he's kind of versatile. I'm not confident on that though, cause again, I don't know much about it. So since I don't know much about him, I again ask, is he THAT much better than Corey Brewer to spend the money on him when Brewer's on his rookie deal.

The debate about Foye and Gordon was that Gordon MIGHT be a better player than Foye, but not enough so to justify the 10mil+ he turned down the last two years. So, without knowing much about Childress, is this a situation where Childress=Gordon and Brewer=Foye? Or is Childress so much better than Brewer, or what Brewer can become, that we should be spending MLE type money on him? I was hoping someone could answer that question, and maybe provide some reasoning.

Mind giving that a shot?

[/QUOTe]

The issue isn't what Brewer "could" be. The issue is what he "is likely" to be. For me, I never see Brewer shooting 50% from the floor, let alone 56%. Could he completely turn things around post an 18 PER season? Perhaps, but extremely unlikely. Very low odds of that, as I think even the most unabashed Brewer supporters would admit.

So my opinion is that if we could get a "Brewer to the unlikely max" at a reasonable rate, it is a no-brainer. We'd eventually have to pay Brewer anyways, and this greatly increases our odds of ending up with an effective glue guy.

[john2jer]

I'm not an English major, and I can only read what you write on the forum. If it was a typo, then it was a typo. Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Jonathan, you can do whatever you want, you're a big boy. You've turned yourself into the Christian Laettner of the Wolves forum. We should be excited that we got the 3rd pick and hopefully a winner to add to the team(or in your case a knowledgeable poster), but instead we just got some snob chanting, "Loser, loser, loser..."

Knock Marvin Williams all you want, that's fine. I like him. Sadly I'll admit my knock on his mid-range game came from trusting what you posted, although it turned out to be a typo. Last time I do that. I'm pretty sure if you look in this thread or in other threads you'll see the many things I like about him. High BBIQ, athletic, size, his age, potential contract, his range has improved, versatility to play the 3 or 4, he can put up monster numbers or fit within the team, doesn't seem to have an attitude, defense, length, and I still think he's decent at putting the ball on the floor for a 3/4.

Thanks for kind of clearing up the Childress issue. If I'm reading what you wrote correctly, Brewer's hope would be to be Childress, but why wait for hope when you can pay for the real deal? Does that sum it up? Any typos in there.

[Jonathan Watters]

Knock Marvin Williams all you want, that's fine. I like him. Sadly I'll admit my knock on his mid-range game came from trusting what you posted, although it turned out to be a typo. Last time I do that.

Did I break your heart?

I'm pretty sure if you look in this thread or in other threads you'll see the many things I like about him. High BBIQ, athletic, size, his age, potential contract, his range has improved, versatility to play the 3 or 4, he can put up monster numbers or fit within the team, doesn't seem to have an attitude, defense, length, and I still think he's decent at putting the ball on the floor for a 3/4.

I'm not knocking him, I don't think. He is what he is. Not a good #2 pick in most drafts, but he's definitely worked on his game to the point where he can be a solid starter on a good team. He was once a long ways away from that. I agree with most of the complementary things you said about him, but I also feel that he's better suited to play on a team where he'd have more of an opportunity to swing to the 4 more often. A team that doesn't have Jefferson and Love clogging the middle.

Now that he can shoot 3's he'd be perfect for D'Antoni, IMO. In that system, he would be quite effective putting the ball on the floor vs opposing 4 men in the halfcourt.

Thanks for kind of clearing up the Childress issue. If I'm reading what you wrote correctly, Brewer's hope would be to be Childress, but why wait for hope when you can pay for the real deal? Does that sum it up?

yes.

Any typos in there.

Not that I'm aware of.

[john2jer]

Knock Marvin Williams all you want, that's fine. I like him. Sadly I'll admit my knock on his mid-range game came from trusting what you posted, although it turned out to be a typo. Last time I do that.

Did I break your heart?

A little. It was kind of like the day I found out Santa wasn't real.

I'm pretty sure if you look in this thread or in other threads you'll see the many things I like about him. High BBIQ, athletic, size, his age, potential contract, his range has improved, versatility to play the 3 or 4, he can put up monster numbers or fit within the team, doesn't seem to have an attitude, defense, length, and I still think he's decent at putting the ball on the floor for a 3/4.

I'm not knocking him, I don't think. He is what he is. Not a good #2 pick in most drafts, but he's definitely worked on his game to the point where he can be a solid starter on a good team. He was once a long ways away from that. I agree with most of the complementary things you said about him, but I also feel that he's better suited to play on a team where he'd have more of an opportunity to swing to the 4 more often. A team that doesn't have Jefferson and Love clogging the middle.

Now that he can shoot 3's he'd be perfect for D'Antoni, IMO. In that system, he would be quite effective putting the ball on the floor vs opposing 4 men in the halfcourt.

COMPLETELY agree on the D'Antoni comment. At this point in time I don't see what relevance there is in where he was drafted. Was #2 too high back then? Sure, but it doesn't mean squat today.

Now if we can get Jefferson to be a little faster, draft Rubio, trade for Marvin Williams, and bring in a D'Antoni deciple, we could run too.

C - Jefferson(Amare)/Love
PF - Williams(Diaw)/Smith
SF - Miller(Hill)/Gomes
SG - Brewer(Bell)
PG - Rubio(Nash)/Foye(Barbosa)

Don't take that too seriously.