Which prospects would you trade Love for?

[revprodeji]

Love is a better passer and rebounder. He also has nearly double the ft/fg (He is 18th in the league, Lopez is 140--btw, unrelated but Mayo is under Foye)

Why do you think Love is a better passer than Lopez? They both get about 1 assist per game. Love is a good outlet passer, but have you been impressed by other parts of his passing game?

Simple apg is underwhelming. Love has better court vision, much better. Which will allow him to be a better high post passing source. He makes outlets better than any big I have seen in my lifetime, he also feeds cutters and the post incredibly well. Lopez is a good passer, but Love is one of the better big man passers. Give him slashers, give him shooters and the APG will climb. Using Love as an offensive weapon would be nice too. How often did we use KG in a pick/role or as a high post passer? We could easily use love in the same way. Which would also take off pressure from a pg.

So it comes down to a tools, not a stats argument. Liking both players a lot and watching both players a lot, it is just something I think Love is better at than Lopez.

[revprodeji]

So...

I'm "over the top" for claiming that 3 players who have proven they are above average players in the NBA would have been better picks than a guy who was one of the 5 worst regular rotation players in the league on the offensive end as a rookie and blew out his knee his second year....

And you are completely rational for claiming this rookie who was one of the 5 worst regular rotation offensive players and blew out his knee is a poor man's pippen.

Isnt the better approach with evaluating Brewer to wait until he can be a finished product or at least until he gives us a healthy season? He has hardly given us a body of work that we can honestly evaluate. So we guess, we assume and we project what we want. For me it is positive, for you it is negative. I do not think he is a pippen. Pippen is one of the greatest players. What I think Brewer can bring is defense, energy, the ability to get in the paint and hopefully a decent jumper. The same things he brought in college. If he is healthy and confident then why cant he?

it is weird that we love Session's scoring ability when his Efg% last year (44.9) is almost the same as Brewer (43.9) His ft/fg is almost the same as Jefferson's. He was one of only a handful of players with a positive PPR. His per 36 would be 11, 6, 3 with 2 steals. Not bad for a small sample size only giving us the start of his soph year. Considering also that after 20 games he had the same Rolands net as Jefferson. That is a huge stat.

Between his freshman and soph year (*admitting again a small 15 game sample size in Wittman's horrible system. Poor kid has only played in Witt's system, what can he do with a real coach?)

EFG% improved by almost 6
TS improved by 5
ASt-R improved by 4
PER improved by 3


You say Brewer did not improve, is just a limited player, but he could have given us a very good player in a 20-25 min role. How many players have struggled their rookie year and then slowly improved their soph year? Why not Brewer?

Because Watters doesn't amen the homeristic groupthink that has pervaded this board for about three years now, he becomes the whipping boy for bad form. Watters, in this case, is actually correct that he is the victim of ad hom attacks rather than actual arguments against his warrants. I find calling someone the "herpes of this board" far worse than calling someone's opinion asinine and then supporting it via a warrant because one attacks character and the other attacks an idea.

But then again support for opinion is highly optional around here.

I admit I like our players, I have ripped on things too, but I can understand calling me a homer. But I do not have issues with people disagreeing. I often disagree with Worm, but we never have issues. (*just as an example) what I have issues with is Watters turning every thread into a personal attack rather than dealing with the topic. I am hardly the only poster who has noticed or spoken out against it. He is not being "attacked" for not agreeing with us, that is just asinine to assume.

[shrink]

Because Watters doesn't amen the homeristic groupthink that has pervaded this board for about three years now, he becomes the whipping boy for bad form.

Blah blah blah. I find it ironic that in a post about discussing issues, his defender resorts to the same old "calling everyone a homer," line.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE when people bring different opinions to the boards. Its the difference in opinion that usually make for the most interesting threads! However, if a person is unable to convey these opinions in an actual civil discussion of the issues, its a giant waste, and he has no reason to complain when people don't want to talk with him.

So yeah, you can whitewash away any statements with the "poor-me, I'm not responsible for the way I post and I'm right anyway, and you homers don't want to admit it " argument. I hear that all the time on KFAN.

And in that vein, I'm diregarding your whole post. You're only saying it because I'm <insert whatever>, and you're <anti-homer>, so I don't have to even think about the merits of your statement.

[mandurugo]

Simple apg is underwhelming. Love has better court vision, much better. Which will allow him to be a better high post passing source. He makes outlets better than any big I have seen in my lifetime, he also feeds cutters and the post incredibly well. Lopez is a good passer, but Love is one of the better big man passers. Give him slashers, give him shooters and the APG will climb. Using Love as an offensive weapon would be nice too. How often did we use KG in a pick/role or as a high post passer? We could easily use love in the same way. Which would also take off pressure from a pg.

So it comes down to a tools, not a stats argument. Liking both players a lot and watching both players a lot, it is just something I think Love is better at than Lopez.

I agree he's good at outlet passes - but I just haven't seen much skills in the other things you mention. He's not terrible, but I wouldn't consider it a strength. In fact, if he was especially good at passing to cutters and feeding the low post, I think that it would show up more in his assist per game don't you? He also doesn't seem too good at passing out of the post - which is something he should really work on since everyone on opposing teams rush in to block his shots. Maybe it's just the plays, but I don't see why the wolves were never able to establish a two man game with Miller and the low post players - he should be good for catching and shooting and cutting and finishing.

Anyway, I'm not really able to compare him to Lopez other than by the numbers, since I haven't seen Lopez play - Love might be significantly better despite the similarities of the raw numbers. But I've seen nothing to suggest that he could play the high post passing game the way KG could, that was one the things that he did extraordinarily well for a big man. Oh well, let's hope for the wolves that Love can match that level.

[revprodeji]

I actually think he is very good at passing to cutters and passing into the post, but we do not have anyone who cuts and other than Al nobody who posts.

I think his numbers come as a result of usage, not talent. We should use Love more as a high post passing threat. But we simple do not.

[the_bruce]

So...

I'm "over the top" for claiming that 3 players who have proven they are above average players in the NBA would have been better picks than a guy who was one of the 5 worst regular rotation players in the league on the offensive end as a rookie and blew out his knee his second year....

And you are completely rational for claiming this rookie who was one of the 5 worst regular rotation offensive players and blew out his knee is a poor man's pippen.

Wheeeeeeee!!!!!

I do love how you gloss over points and I remember your other posts regarding the brewer pick that's why I say over the top. Anyways, MN wouldn't be looking at a 4 in that draft. Young has put up good numbers, but at the 4 spot. Same with wright. Noah was a complete nutcase and bench warmer until the past few months. Have they shown more than Brewer, sure. But it's marginal ESPECIALLY when you consider the makeup of the wolves at the time of the draft, or even now.

Also, I think after Brewers initial rookie adjustments to the NBA he wasn't one of the 5 worst offensive rotational players in the league last year. His final 2-3 months he shot over .400 each month. He had a very rocky first 2 months and shot sub .300 if I recall, but he did improve after that. I'm sure if you sliced off the adjustment player he isn't "bottom 5".

As for poor mans pippen...

Pippens career avg were something like...

18\8\5\2\1

He had larger scoring\reb\assist years of course, but Brewer is a guy that can defend most 3/2's like Pippen. If he comes back healthy and with improved ball handling I don't see any reason he can't have a statline of...

13-15\7-8\3-4\2\1

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jonathan Watters]

Isnt the better approach with evaluating Brewer to wait until he can be a finished product or at least until he gives us a healthy season? He has hardly given us a body of work that we can honestly evaluate. So we guess, we assume and we project what we want. For me it is positive, for you it is negative. I do not think he is a pippen. Pippen is one of the greatest players. What I think Brewer can bring is defense, energy, the ability to get in the paint and hopefully a decent jumper. The same things he brought in college. If he is healthy and confident then why cant he?

it is weird that we love Session's scoring ability when his Efg% last year (44.9) is almost the same as Brewer (43.9) His ft/fg is almost the same as Jefferson's. He was one of only a handful of players with a positive PPR. His per 36 would be 11, 6, 3 with 2 steals. Not bad for a small sample size only giving us the start of his soph year. Considering also that after 20 games he had the same Rolands net as Jefferson. That is a huge stat.

Between his freshman and soph year (*admitting again a small 15 game sample size in Wittman's horrible system. Poor kid has only played in Witt's system, what can he do with a real coach?)

EFG% improved by almost 6
TS improved by 5
ASt-R improved by 4
PER improved by 3


You say Brewer did not improve, is just a limited player, but he could have given us a very good player in a 20-25 min role. How many players have struggled their rookie year and then slowly improved their soph year? Why not Brewer?

It must be said, I'll get it out of the way early - cherry picking the only positive stats you can find and completely ignoring the big statistical picture is not going to work with me. You can't tell me to hold off on conclusions because the sample size is small and then try to use 15 games where he showed minor improvements as if it is the definitive answer to everything. So don't do things like this if you don't like personal attacks.

This is the big picture -

- Corey Brewer's rookie season was horrible. Beyond horrible. He was as bad an offensive player as there was in the entire league.

- 15 games into his second season, he was playing a little better. His per had gone from 8.5 to 11.5. But please realize what this means. Post all your /36 numbers all you want, but the reality is that he went from "embarrassingly bad" to just "really bad". No amount of cherry picked stats will change this.

- Furthermore, it isa small sample size, where things like shooting % really can't be read into a whole lot. His improved shot is based on 12 3-point attempts. Reading into that is laughable. If you were to read into it, a guy with such a low usage rate, even his "improved" 47% EFG% is pathetically bad.

- The fact that players have started out their careers poorly and bounced back isn't very relevant to this discussion. Players who start out their careers as poorly as Brewer have the odds stacked against them, and stacked against them dramatically. This is a fact, even though there is a chance he could turn it around.

- Claiming his numbers aren't "that much different" from guys who are dramatically more productive and playing bigger roles on better teams is just silly. His numbers are a TON different from Noah, Wright and Young. Not even in the same ballpark, even if you can pick a few numbers that make them look similar. The big picture is that they aren't even close.

- I'm not saying Brewer can't bounce back, that would be as silly as saying he's a better pick than Noah, Wright or Young. But what I am saying is that right now, he's not even remotely close and it is extremely unlikely that he ever will be.

- This is the big picture, and that includes an acknowledgment that the book on Brewer isn't closed yet.

I admit I like our players, I have ripped on things too, but I can understand calling me a homer. But I do not have issues with people disagreeing. I often disagree with Worm, but we never have issues. (*just as an example) what I have issues with is Watters turning every thread into a personal attack rather than dealing with the topic. I am hardly the only poster who has noticed or spoken out against it. He is not being "attacked" for not agreeing with us, that is just asinine to assume.

Yes I most certainly am being attacked for disagreeing with you. It has nothing to do with my salty persona and everything to do with the fact that I back up everything I say with the most reliable support that can be found and this flies in the face of your pro-Wolves agenda.

[Jonathan Watters]

I do love how you gloss over points and I remember your other posts regarding the brewer pick that's why I say over the top. Anyways, MN wouldn't be looking at a 4 in that draft. Young has put up good numbers, but at the 4 spot. Same with wright. Noah was a complete nutcase and bench warmer until the past few months. Have they shown more than Brewer, sure. But it's marginal ESPECIALLY when you consider the makeup of the wolves at the time of the draft, or even now.

Noah wasn't a complete nutcase and has shown remarkably consistent productivity since the moment he entered the league. He's always been a productive part of the rotation, even though that isn't convenient for your argument.

Also, I think after Brewers initial rookie adjustments to the NBA he wasn't one of the 5 worst offensive rotational players in the league last year. His final 2-3 months he shot over .400 each month. He had a very rocky first 2 months and shot sub .300 if I recall, but he did improve after that. I'm sure if you sliced off the adjustment player he isn't "bottom 5".

Shooting over .400 isn't something to brag about. Do you brag about getting a D+ because it isn't an F? And he was certainly still one of the worst offensive players in the league. You don't end a season with a PER of 8.35 otherwise...

As for poor mans pippen...

Pippens career avg were something like...

18\8\5\2\1

He had larger scoring\reb\assist years of course, but Brewer is a guy that can defend most 3/2's like Pippen. If he comes back healthy and with improved ball handling I don't see any reason he can't have a statline of...

13-15\7-8\3-4\2\1

For future reference: the next time you want to find a new version of one of the best ball handling wings to ever play the game, you might want to find a player that can actually handle the ball. Other than showing a remote physical resemblance to Pippen, he isn't very similar at all.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can say that again...

[JMillott]

I can't understand why such a vocal minority on this board will defend a player like Corey Brewer to their death but is so willing to write off the idea of signing Ramon Sessions.

Or why they are so hell bent on saying Kevin Love was the better pick over Brook Lopez when drafting Lopez would obviously have given them at least a compareable player while also allowing the franchise player Al Jefferson to move back to his natural PF position fulltime?

If you care enough to post about the team on a basketball forum, why aren't you more receptive to lines of thinking that would actually clearly make the team better?

[revprodeji]

Watters, I do not like you because you are a jerk that seems to attacking people while making your point. If it was not for your knowledge of the game I would just block you, but when you are not throwing poop you have a very good basketball mind. That is the annoying part. Is young out producing Brewer so far? Sure..no doubt, but do I think Brewer will be the better player long term? Yes. I think he was also the rare player that would have developed well with an aging KG or in a rebuilding plan. I did not expect his confidence to take such a hit that would kill his shooting. Was it Wittman or just a rookie year? Who knows, but I have seen a lot of Brewer over the past handful of years and I think he brings a lot.(*I first liked Brewer after reading about him in SLAM) He shot .475 his final year at Florida, .336 from the shorter 3. (119 attempts in 37 games). The shooting should return.

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/Wo ... 70628.html

He was a big reason why Florida did what they did. That does not just go away. He brings a lot of intangibles, is a bulldog on defense and he can be effective on offense. I like what he brings.

Jmillott

We are not trying to sign Brewer to the MLE that will make him our #2/3 offensive option and eat a nice chunk in the cap we have worked hard to collect.

Love is a better player, that is why. Lopez is not comparable other than he is white and plays the post. Jefferson is not a natural pf anymore than a natural c. Offensively he is much better at the C.

Why iss your line of thinking the one that automatically is the correct one that I should conform to? This is a subjective argument, not a metaphysical truth. It is bizarre that we talk about the need for multiple opinions/voices and then get scolded for thinking different?

[Jonathan Watters]

Watters, I do not like you because you are a jerk that seems to attacking people while making your point. If it was not for your knowledge of the game I would just block you, but when you are not throwing poop you have a very good basketball mind. That is the annoying part. Is young out producing Brewer so far? Sure..no doubt, but do I think Brewer will be the better player long term? Yes.I think he was also the rare player that would have developed well with an aging KG or in a rebuilding plan. I did not expect his confidence to take such a hit that would kill his shooting. Was it Wittman or just a rookie year? Who knows, but I have seen a lot of Brewer over the past handful of years and I think he brings a lot.(*I first liked Brewer after reading about him in SLAM) He shot .475 his final year at Florida, .336 from the shorter 3. (119 attempts in 37 games). The shooting should return.

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/Wo ... 70628.html

He was a big reason why Florida did what they did. That does not just go away. He brings a lot of intangibles, is a bulldog on defense and he can be effective on offense. I like what he brings.

So your reason is because a) he was a part of a good college team b) he shot 33.6% from the shorter 3-point line. Wheeeeeeeeeee!

Love is a better player, that is why. Lopez is not comparable other than he is white and plays the post.

You must have a mental block of some kind. There is absolutely nothing to support this, not in the least bit. His offensive numbers are very similar. He makes a much bigger impact on the defensive end. He fills a much more important role in Minnesota than Love.

AND HE ISN'T EVEN FREAKING WHITE!!!!!!!!!

Why iss your line of thinking the one that automatically is the correct one that I should conform to? This is a subjective argument, not a metaphysical truth. It is bizarre that we talk about the need for multiple opinions/voices and then get scolded for thinking different?

[/quote]

Always assuming the current Timberwolf is better in every circumstance isn't relevant in a discussion about "multiple" opinions being better.

[revprodeji]

Way to prove our points Watters and take my point completely out of context. By showing a college 3 stat we see a mid-range jump shooting ability. His overall college FG% is very good, and his college 3 is decent. With Brewer's skill set all he needs to be is serviceable with his jump shot. I have made many other statements about why I like Brewer, but you take one thing and wrap it out of context in order to prove your case. That makes no sense.

Love is a better rebounder than Lopez, I believe Love has a higher BBIQ, more potential in a Pick/pop game and is a better passer than Lopez. Lopez plays on a better team with a better coach, Love started slow. Once again, either player could go either way. Are we trying to judge a kid after one year?

btw, he is half Caucasian, half cuban

What does your last "point" even have to do with the part you quoted?

[Jonathan Watters]

Way to prove our points Watters and take my point completely out of context. By showing a college 3 stat we see a mid-range jump shooting ability. His overall college FG% is very good, and his college 3 is decent. With Brewer's skill set all he needs to be is serviceable with his jump shot. I have made many other statements about why I like Brewer, but you take one thing and wrap it out of context in order to prove your case. That makes no sense.

33.6% is not "decent" from college 3, especially when you are a roleplayer on offense and most every single shot you take is wide open. And it has absolutely nothing to do with anything 2 years into his NBA career.

Love is a better rebounder than Lopez, I believe Love has a higher BBIQ, more potential in a Pick/pop game and is a better passer than Lopez. Lopez plays on a better team with a better coach, Love started slow.

So because Love does some things better than Lopez you completely ignore the mounds of evidence that clearly indicates they are similar players at the very least?

Once again, either player could go either way. Are we trying to judge a kid after one year?

What in heck does pointing to the fact that Lopez is at least as good as Love have to do with judging Love after one year? Once again, it is clear you have a mental complex when it comes to Wolves players/prospects...

Of course, you still have yet to respond to the original reason I started posting on that thread, you know the ridiculousness about the C position being irrelevant with small ball taking over in the NBA and such...

[revprodeji]

Not true. I like Brewer (*Minority) and I like Love (many do) I do not like Smith, Miller. I do not like Bassy/Gomes as starters, but I am ok with them as bench. I have no issue admitting we made a mistake on a draft pick, but I have an issue with judging a young player at an early time to be a bust. Look at how Ty Thomas is playing lately, when at the beginning of the year they would have traded him easily. Does that mean we think he is a bust? Or a boom? Or do we moderate and cheer for the best?

Lopez is a good player, and I am sure he would be ok with us. But on the wolves he would have had a team that already has a low block monster. (in NJ he is it) Does not have a quality pg (In Jersey he has Harris) does not have the spacing, or the vet scoring to take pressure off him (Carter) and the coaching from Wittman to anyone is a huge drop. Do I think Lopez is good? Yes, but how would Love do if he had the advantages Lopez does?

[Jonathan Watters]

Not true. I like Brewer (*Minority) and I like Love (many do) I do not like Smith, Miller. I do not like Bassy/Gomes as starters, but I am ok with them as bench. I have no issue admitting we made a mistake on a draft pick, but I have an issue with judging a young player at an early time to be a bust.

You would have no problem doing it for a player on another team. We talk about how the NBA is a subjective game full of possibilities, and in that scenario we can talk about percentages and deal with probabilities. In these terms, a person interested in a rational discussion about Corey Brewer will be capable of acknowledging the significant negatives we have seen up to this point and what they indicate about his future. I don't know how else I can spell this out to you...

Look at how Ty Thomas is playing lately, when at the beginning of the year they would have traded him easily. Does that mean we think he is a bust? Or a boom? Or do we moderate and cheer for the best?

Tyrus Thomas is on a completely different level than Brewer as a talent. They aren't even remotely close. He's the most athletic big man in the league, for pete's sake. He gets a lot longer rope than Corey Brewer, who is a solid but not spectacular natural talent. There's also the difference in where Thomas is in terms of his development as a player compared to Brewer, and the fact that Thomas has still always been a more effective player than Brewer - even at his worst.

Lopez is a good player, and I am sure he would be ok with us. But on the wolves he would have had a team that already has a low block monster. (in NJ he is it) Does not have a quality pg (In Jersey he has Harris) does not have the spacing, or the vet scoring to take pressure off him (Carter) and the coaching from Wittman to anyone is a huge drop. Do I think Lopez is good? Yes, but how would Love do if he had the advantages Lopez does?

There are a lot of assumptions here. Yes, Lopez gets a lot of easy finishes around the rim due to Carter and Harris. He also has the ability to finish these touches, because he is a competent NBA athlete with legitimate center size. Love isn't. You talk about how Love "started slow", but don't acknowledge the massive improvements that Lopez has made to his game over the past 3 seasons.

How about the fact that Love isn't in good enough shape to play full time minutes and with the stress he's putting on his knees is a serious injury waiting to happen? That in terms of development, Love is much closer to his peak than Lopez is?

And you still completely ignore the fact that Lopez is a much better fit and would offer a completely different dimension on the defensive side of the ball...

[JMillott]

I like Kevin Love and Corey Brewer.

I was absolutely against drafting Brook Lopez a year ago because I thought he was just a Rony Seikaly clone who was a solid but not special NBA center.

I know now that I was both wrong and right about him, right now at age 20 he is very close to a prime Rony Seikaly with a higher basketball IQ. I didn't put into context that he was still getting better and better.

Having a 14 PPG, 9 RPG, 2 BPG center who has a face up jumper, hits his free throws, can pass and isn't turnover prone on top of being a solid defensive NBA center would be quite frankly just about perfect.

Al Jefferson is a natural PF I say this with great confidence because i'm a Celtics fan who's been watching him play since 2004 and because outside of Pierce he is my favorite player in the NBA.

I say that he can play with great success next to a true C at his natural PF because I watched him breakout into a star doing exactly that next to Kendrick Perkins. I also watched him do so with Rajon Rondo as his PG who doesn't provide three point shooting which is why I don't think its a must for his PG's to shoot them.

If anything about Al Jefferson jumps out at me its that he has the best hands i've ever seen for a bigman save for maybe Chris Webber and with a slashing PG you can't leave Jefferson or any decent PG will just get him a layup.

Have you not noticed that on a team with poor spacing and no second option that you have a bigman turning the ball over less then two times per game while taking nearly 20 shots per game?

Why would you have the idea that he isn't a PF? Because the Wolves have failed to find a rotation caliber NBA center to play with him over the last two years?

They passed up one chance to do so with Brook Lopez they shouldn't pass up a second chance with Hasheem Thabeet.

[revprodeji]

I think at the 4 he tends to spend more time in the high post, which would explain the difference in his EFG from the 4 and 5 spot. Whereas when he is at the 5 he spends more time in the post. It might just be a mentality thing? It might be a spacing issue.

btw, you are right, Jefferson has great hands. I wish we had a real slasher to get him the ball inside.

The reason I want a pg with an outside shot is for when we dump the ball into Jefferson. Get some 2 man going. If the pg has an outside shot the defense is less likely to double off of them. Shooting is the one skill I think that work ethic and good coaching can at least bring to average. It just needs works.

[Klomp]

Anthony Randolph. He's the next Derrick Rose.

[john2jer]

I thought A-Ran was the next Magic Johnson? Or is it KG? Or is it Wilt Abdul-Jordan?