Trade Idea BOS/MINN

[Devilzsidewalk]

just like San Antonio didn't have to choose between Parker and Duncan. If you're a really good player, you should be able to play any style.

[Papa Irish31]

trading away gomes isn't going to make or break anything with yall, it wouldn't be the difference between making or missing the playoffs, you are a rebuilding team, trying to rebuild mainly around the pieces of big al, love two of the more promising post players in the league, and hoping corey brewer can progress to the type of player he was in college and has the potential to be, as an nba player

gomes is not a starter for a quality nba team, i love the guy but thats just the facts, i believe he can be a top tier role player, but right now he is potentially holding brewer back and doesn't have the same upside as that kid; a lot of the minnesota fans have brought up the fact that the players yall are getting back in this deal are late draft picks, guess what gomes was drafted 51st and his first year with the celtics he got no playing time until he was forced into the rotation because of injuries, and he was on a team that compiled the second worst record in the league

so its not completely unfathomable that JR Giddens and Bill Walker turn out to be pretty solid, or maybe even a little better, just because you can't crack the rotation of a championship team as a rookie doesn't mean your a scrub; im sure if this trade went down and yall had bill or jr for a year they would both win you over

Maybe he's worried about losing Miller and Foye, but if he's heard what we've heard about Rubio, he could just as easily be excited. That's a more complicated issue.

is yall hearing something different than the rest of the NBA? he is a HIGH risk HIGH reward type of player but he is not a definite home run pick by any means, and if he is buying that rubio is better than nash just tell him JR and Bill are like the second coming of jordan and pippen, apparently he is gullible

and im not in anyway saying that rubio cant or wont be good, and that rubio and jefferson cant play together, im saying that trying to recreate the suns offense with big al is a bad idea, it takes away from his strengths, and i actually like the spurs comparison, that would be an excellent style to emulate with those two, run when you see the opportunity, and slow it down and dump it in to big al to punish the D

[Krapinsky]

just like San Antonio didn't have to choose between Parker and Duncan. If you're a really good player, you should be able to play any style.

What about Nash and Shaq?

[Worm Guts]

trading away gomes isn't going to make or break anything with yall, it wouldn't be the difference between making or missing the playoffs, you are a rebuilding team, trying to rebuild mainly around the pieces of big al, love two of the more promising post players in the league, and hoping corey brewer can progress to the type of player he was in college and has the potential to be, as an nba player

gomes is not a starter for a quality nba team, i love the guy but thats just the facts, i believe he can be a top tier role player, but right now he is potentially holding brewer back and doesn't have the same upside as that kid; a lot of the minnesota fans have brought up the fact that the players yall are getting back in this deal are late draft picks, guess what gomes was drafted 51st and his first year with the celtics he got no playing time until he was forced into the rotation because of injuries, and he was on a team that compiled the second worst record in the league

so its not completely unfathomable that JR Giddens and Bill Walker turn out to be pretty solid, or maybe even a little better, just because you can't crack the rotation of a championship team as a rookie doesn't mean your a scrub; im sure if this trade went down and yall had bill or jr for a year they would both win you over

I agree with most of this but you seem to be missing the point. Al's been on losing teams enough over his career, he's probably chomping at the bit a little for this team to improve. That probably won't happen this year but I don't want to completely take the legs from underneath him. We need to give him some help. The Wolves have plenty of prospects and future draft picks, they don't need more.

is yall hearing something different than the rest of the NBA? he is a HIGH risk HIGH reward type of player but he is not a definite home run pick by any means, and if he is buying that rubio is better than nash just tell him JR and Bill are like the second coming of jordan and pippen, apparently he is gullible

Rubio's a substantially better prospect than Giddens and Walker. He's somebody you can get excited about.

[Worm Guts]

just like San Antonio didn't have to choose between Parker and Duncan. If you're a really good player, you should be able to play any style.

What about Nash and Shaq?

Nash and Shaq would have worked better if either of them were under 50 years old.

[Papa Irish31]

there is no doubt in anyone's mind that rubio is a better prospect than giddens or walker, i am just saying that rubio is far from a sure thing;

shaq and nash would never work together whether they were 25 or 50, they are the two worst pick and roll defenders in the league, and there offensive games contradict each other

just because they are both great players doesn't mean they would or should be able to play together or "any style"

and really im missing the point? you have plenty of future prospects and draft picks and don't need more?

your prospects include love, flynn, brewer, and who else? ellington? what makes ellington any better than JR Giddens, he was drafted a pick before giddens was selected the year before in a draft that was ten times less talented than giddens' class

giddens has a year of valuable experience being able to sit and watch, and practice against guys like paul pierce, ray allen, kevin garnett and rajon rondo; and giddens has better size and athletic ability than ellington,

to say that you dont need to add talent is a stupid statement on any level

[john2jer]

Is the argument being missed that the Wolves have at least 14 guaranteed contracts already, and 15 if Rubio comes over, so to take on two more would mean we'd have to cut guaranteed salary?

I'd rather have Ryan Gomes than those three, especially considering we'd have to cut people after the trade. We'd need a lot more coming back. We need quality, not quantity.

[shrink]

Is the argument being missed that the Wolves have at least 14 guaranteed contracts already, and 15 if Rubio comes over, so to take on two more would mean we'd have to cut guaranteed salary?

I'd rather have Ryan Gomes than those three, especially considering we'd have to cut people after the trade. We'd need a lot more coming back. We need quality, not quantity.

Well, part of the BOS request was to buy out Scalabrine, and while I don't write checks for Taylor, that doesn't seem too farfetched, so the entire deal would only take one roster spot. You're right, if Rubio comes over, we'll have to cut someone else. Personally though, I think if that happens, we'd be moving Telfair anyway.

[Worm Guts]

your prospects include love, flynn, brewer, and who else? ellington? what makes ellington any better than JR Giddens, he was drafted a pick before giddens was selected the year before in a draft that was ten times less talented than giddens' class

We've got 3 first round picks coming up next year (and 3 2nd round pick). That's 2-3 rookies, two young former lottery picks, and 3 more guys next year. That's enough to take up more than half the roster.

giddens has a year of valuable experience being able to sit and watch, and practice against guys like paul pierce, ray allen, kevin garnett and rajon rondo; and giddens has better size and athletic ability than ellington,

That's nice, but the difference between the two as prospects is negligible. Giddens was the last pick in the first round and played in 6 games as a rookie. I don't get why I'm supposed to be impressed.

to say that you dont need to add talent is a stupid statement on any level

Adding Giddens and Walker at the expense of Gomes and Songaila hardly qualifies as adding talent. It's actually the opposite.

[Esohny]

Is the argument being missed that the Wolves have at least 14 guaranteed contracts already, and 15 if Rubio comes over, so to take on two more would mean we'd have to cut guaranteed salary?

I'd rather have Ryan Gomes than those three, especially considering we'd have to cut people after the trade. We'd need a lot more coming back. We need quality, not quantity.

Well, part of the BOS request was to buy out Scalabrine, and while I don't write checks for Taylor, that doesn't seem too farfetched, so the entire deal would only take one roster spot. You're right, if Rubio comes over, we'll have to cut someone else. Personally though, I think if that happens, we'd be moving Telfair anyway.

I sure hope so.

[shrink]

what do you think does adding a second rounder and taking back bobby brown get the deal done for some of yall? that would make it a tony allen, bill walker, jr giddens, and 2cd rounder for ryan gomes and bobby brown swap; am i getting closer or farther?

Keep the second rounder, and throw in a Scal-for-the better-Song, and I'm down.

You can do a Songalia swap now if he's done as a seperate trade, which works independently under the 125% + $100,000 cap matching rules. For instance:

Songalia for Scalabrine + Walker + $380,000 mil TPE

and

Gomes for Tony Allen + Giddens + $500,000 TPE

Songalia and Gomes solidify BOS' chances for a ring. Gomes partial guarantee for $1 mil helps BOS if they get injuries and don't look like 2010-11 contenders. MIN gets out of Songalia's contract (and saves on Gomes) for 2010 cap space, and the Wolves actually have the minutes to give to the young players. If they fail, they aren't costing MIN a championship or anything.

BOS depth Chart
-------------------------
Rondo, Pruitt
Ray Allen, Eddie House
Pierce, Gomes
Garnett, Songalia
Rasheed, Perkins

Looks pretty solid. Sprinkle with a couple vet min guys looking for a ring, and you're set.

This look better or worse now? We have the roster slots, particularly if we agree to buy out Songalia. Gomes veteran presence might be more useful though?

Rubio, Flynn, Brown
Q-Rich, Ellington, JR Giddens, Tony Allen,
Brewer, Bill Walker
Love, Etan Thomas, Cardinal
Jefferson, Pecherov

(MIN agrees to buy out Scalabrine gets bought out -- 14/15 roster)

[Worm Guts]

I'd rather keep Gomes unless we get a better option at SF. I'd like to move Songaila, but I think we can wait.

[Devilzsidewalk]

I'd imagine Gomes is starting

[skorff26]

what do you think does adding a second rounder and taking back bobby brown get the deal done for some of yall? that would make it a tony allen, bill walker, jr giddens, and 2cd rounder for ryan gomes and bobby brown swap; am i getting closer or farther?

Keep the second rounder, and throw in a Scal-for-the better-Song, and I'm down.

You can do a Songalia swap now if he's done as a seperate trade, which works independently under the 125% + $100,000 cap matching rules. For instance:

Songalia for Scalabrine + Walker + $380,000 mil TPE

and

Gomes for Tony Allen + Giddens + $500,000 TPE

Songalia and Gomes solidify BOS' chances for a ring. Gomes partial guarantee for $1 mil helps BOS if they get injuries and don't look like 2010-11 contenders. MIN gets out of Songalia's contract (and saves on Gomes) for 2010 cap space, and the Wolves actually have the minutes to give to the young players. If they fail, they aren't costing MIN a championship or anything.

BOS depth Chart
-------------------------
Rondo, Pruitt
Ray Allen, Eddie House
Pierce, Gomes
Garnett, Songalia
Rasheed, Perkins

Looks pretty solid. Sprinkle with a couple vet min guys looking for a ring, and you're set.

This look better or worse now? We have the roster slots, particularly if we agree to buy out Songalia. Gomes veteran presence might be more useful though?

Rubio, Flynn, Brown
Q-Rich, Ellington, JR Giddens, Tony Allen,
Brewer, Bill Walker
Love, Etan Thomas, Cardinal
Jefferson, Pecherov

(MIN agrees to buy out Scalabrine gets bought out -- 14/15 roster)

I like it even more since we get rid of Songalia's contract, and right now I don't think too many teams will be able to offer a max deal if the cap drops quite a bit and if we are one of the only ones than we will have a ton more options next offseason.

[Krapinsky]

yeah, I would probably do this now.

[younggunsmn]

We should keep Gomes for one more year. He'll have just as much value next year, if not more, as an unguaranteed contract.

I agree with the second part.

Maybe this isn't the offer, but I don't think we should close our eyes to potential trades for funky Mr. Gomes.

gomes' value as an unguaranteed contract expires after 6/30/2010, when his entire deal becomes guaranteed if he has not been waived.

[shrink]

gomes' value as an unguaranteed contract expires after 6/30/2010, when his entire deal becomes guaranteed if he has not been waived.

I believe that there is a decision for $1 mil in 2010, and one in 2011 for $1 mil, but perhaps I'm mistaken?

Is it a one time decision that would simply be a $1 mil pay-out both years?

[younggunsmn]

there is no doubt in anyone's mind that rubio is a better prospect than giddens or walker, i am just saying that rubio is far from a sure thing;

shaq and nash would never work together whether they were 25 or 50, they are the two worst pick and roll defenders in the league, and there offensive games contradict each other

just because they are both great players doesn't mean they would or should be able to play together or "any style"

and really im missing the point? you have plenty of future prospects and draft picks and don't need more?

your prospects include love, flynn, brewer, and who else? ellington? what makes ellington any better than JR Giddens, he was drafted a pick before giddens was selected the year before in a draft that was ten times less talented than giddens' class

giddens has a year of valuable experience being able to sit and watch, and practice against guys like paul pierce, ray allen, kevin garnett and rajon rondo; and giddens has better size and athletic ability than ellington,

to say that you dont need to add talent is a stupid statement on any level

Giddens is not a starting SG in this league. Though he may well prove to be slightly better than ellington, he is redundant as a backup sg. There is little value there.
Quality talent is always preferable to quantity of talent.
A 1st rounder from the post-KG era (say 2014) that is lightly protected is superior to any young talent you could offer us in a trade.

a deal centered around allen/scal for gomes/songalia is intriguing because it adds cap space for next year, but is it the best we can do for gomes, and is it fair value for moving songalia?.

How much cap space do we really need, and how will we use such space?
Is it better to have gomes as a backup sf?
And does gomes have enough value where we can use him in a deal for another sf, say in a gerald wallace deal, where the other team wants a sf coming back? such a deal would be preferable to a salary dump in my opinion.

[younggunsmn]

gomes' value as an unguaranteed contract expires after 6/30/2010, when his entire deal becomes guaranteed if he has not been waived.

I believe that there is a decision for $1 mil in 2010, and one in 2011 for $1 mil, but perhaps I'm mistaken?

Is it a one time decision that would simply be a $1 mil pay-out both years?

It is not a "buy-out", it is 1 million guaranteed (out of his total salary) for 2010 and 2011, and 750k for 2012, that money is his no matter what.
We have the ability to waive him at any time and only be on the hook for 2.75 mil over 3 years.
That disappears on 6/30/2010 when the full amount of his remaining contract (14.25 over the last 3 years) becomes guaranteed.

http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/r ... laries.htm

[skorff26]

How much cap space do we really need, and how will we use such space?

The more the better since
1) not many teams will be able to offer the max if the cap drops quite a bit, and if we could that would just increase our chances of getting someone like Johnson
2) also there will be so many teams looking to cut salary for a variety of reasons that our cap space will be very very valuable.

Is it better to have gomes as a backup sf?

Yes in the short term but in the long term no. with the extra cap space that we create in this trade, we will get something back that has more value than Gomes would.

And does gomes have enough value where we can use him in a deal for another sf, say in a gerald wallace deal, where the other team wants a sf coming back? such a deal would be preferable to a salary dump in my opinion.

It might help but if Charlotte were to dump Wallace, they might want the extra cap space instead of Gomes. There's a decent chance that cap space + Charlotte's 1st returned would get us Wallace next offseason IMO (if that's the route that we would want to consider)