Tap: Fernandez unhappy, wants pt

[Wizenheimer]

You took issue with my quote

Perhaps I'm biased because of all the over-hyping he got on the Trade Board from other Blazer fans ...

that is actually false...totally false. That is not the quote I took issue with. I specifically highlighted which one it was and it wasn't the one you claim

First, let me say that I don't like it when someone puts words in my mouth. I was talking about Rudy Fernandez, and your extrapolation was

I think that's off base, at least it is insofar as implying Portland fans are the only ones guilty of it

apparently, you don't like it when the someone who puts words in your mouth is yourself...as you will demonstrate with your next sentence

I didn't say one word about other fans, or, in fact, any other POR player than Rudy Fernandez.

what a load of hooey....do you have short term memory problems????

just backtrack about four posts in this thread

you said:

Blazin, its just that we've heard this same type of hyperbole time and time again from POR fans, over any player that Kevin Pritchard adds to the team. Since KP got him, the player must be bound for stardom. I don't know if you're one of the main offenders, or whether you're right or wrong on Batum, but the response you got was because you're following a tired pattern that we've heard many many times.

that is targeted at an entire fanbase, not just a singular fan. You don't make any distinctions at all. It's also sure as hell about more players then just Rudy since your description specifically says "any" player that KP has added

And that's the specific paragraph I quoted when I registered my objection...you can see that clearly a few posts above as well

Second, if you want to walk down that road, I showed this post to show you that this kind of over-valueing is not something in the past, and that we see it every day. "Some other guy does it too" is an irresponsible grade school defense.

I don't know about that....wouldn't you agree it's irresponsible to deny you did something when the evidence you did is just a few posts up?

Third, as for your "you're just as bad as us!" argument, it's a stupid reason for comparison, but how about you actually compare apples to apples. You saw the POR offers for John Wall. The MIN offer for Wall was mine, and it was #4 + Rubio.

personally, I don't think it's a very good offer

but then I think the chances of Rubio being in the NBA in the near future are pretty slim. It's seems very unlikely he'll come over this summer and be here next season. Well, after that, a new CBA may make the NBA real unattractive for high paid euro-players to come over an be locked into rookie-scale contracts, especially if the owners get a lot of what they want. I think people could be underestimating the impacts the new CBA will bring

[GopherIt!]

but then I think the chances of Rubio being in the NBA in the near future are pretty slim. It's seems very unlikely he'll come over this summer and be here next season. Well, after that, a new CBA may make the NBA real unattractive for high paid euro-players to come over an be locked into rookie-scale contracts, especially if the owners get a lot of what they want. I think people could be underestimating the impacts the new CBA will bring

Damn you are jealous. Why not also mention the fact our owner Glen Taylor is Chairman of the NBA Board of Governors and our GM is good buddies with the Commish? When they hammer out a new CBA, our best interests certainly won't be ignored. Plus, what is good for Minnesota (Rubio playing for the Wolves) is also good for the NBA (Rubio playing in the NBA) especially from a marketing standpoint.
Rubio = more $$$ for the league. They'll figure something out.

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[GopherIt!]

Wizenheimer - check out the "What is the #1 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft worth?"

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=990733&start=0

I could see Portland offering anything outside of Roy, Oden, and LA.

I'm on record though as willing to offer LA for the draft rights to Wall.

Not to mention my sig.

[shrink]

Wiz - you are correct. I read the post you wrote and what you quoted, but didn't go back to read the previous post. I post on a lot of boards, and I was trying to explain to another poster got the response he did. Maybe I viewed that as seperate, or I just forgot, or I didn't read your post thoroughly enough, but you are right.

However, its still false for you to extrapolate "insofar as POR fans are the only ones doing it." I never said anything about other fans. I still believe that argueing "but , but, but ... some other guys do it too!" is a grade school attempt to avoid responsibility. So what if they do? That doesn't mean POR players doing it is any better or worse.

Surely you'd agree that a Rubio + #4 offer is far better than the POR offers that were either LaMarcus Aldridge, or wouldn't even include Aldridge!

Personally, I think the problem which causes POR posters to lose credibility, isn't the over-valueing, or belief (in previous years) that Kevin Pritchard is some sort of basketball guru with a Midas Touch. Its POR posters "us-against-them" mentality. On the Trade Board, they rush to protect each other even for the most preposterous of statements. And you've demonstrated it again right here.

You read the POR offers for John Wall, and how bad they were, and I even provided you a link. Instead of going to the Trade Board to try to steer your POR posters back towards sanity, you tried to defend those answers on some other board! You also read the responses from others posters in that thread, and when you choose to simply let the POR statements stand there and you do nothing so you don't offend a POR-brother, you can see why it costs your fanbase credibility for over-hyping. Those were the only two POR offers - the ones that POR posters chose to post. And no POR poster chose to say, "well, maybe that's a little light .. or here's another offer."

[shrink]

but then I think the chances of Rubio being in the NBA in the near future are pretty slim. It's seems very unlikely he'll come over this summer and be here next season. Well, after that, a new CBA may make the NBA real unattractive for high paid euro-players to come over an be locked into rookie-scale contracts, especially if the owners get a lot of what they want. I think people could be underestimating the impacts the new CBA will bring

Hmmm. Do you carry the same "euro's won't want to play for a pittance" when it comes to Rudy? I mean, he came over to POR to play for $1.0 mil 08-09, he got paid $1.1 mil in 09-10, and he only gets $1.2 mil in 2010-11. By comparison, Rubio would get $3 mil, though a CBA could lower it (though I doubt they touch the already cheap rookie scale).

Anyway, if euro's won't play for a pittance, explain Rudy playingfor $1 mil, and better yet, explain why he has any trade value when he'll only gets $1.2 mil next year, and could get so much more in europe? It seems a tad hypocritical.

[Wizenheimer]

Wiz - you are correct. I read the post you wrote and what you quoted, but didn't go back to read the previous post. I post on a lot of boards, and I was trying to explain to another poster got the response he did. Maybe I viewed that as seperate, or I just forgot, or I didn't read your post thoroughly enough, but you are right.

However, its still false for you to extrapolate "insofar as POR fans are the only ones doing it." I never said anything about other fans. I still believe that argueing "but , but, but ... some other guys do it too!" is a grade school attempt to avoid responsibility. So what if they do? That doesn't mean POR players doing it is any better or worse.

you made a point of saying you didn't like people to put words in your mouth

let me ask...if someone kept referring to your perspective on something as "grade school", would you take it kindly and would it help generate good discussion?

if somebody makes a dumb trade proposal, deal with that trade proposal on it's merits or lack of. Don't go off on an entire fanbase because of some bad ideas by a few posters. That's what is grade school

Surely you'd agree that a Rubio + #4 offer is far better than the POR offers that were either LaMarcus Aldridge, or wouldn't even include Aldridge!

the one without Aldridge seems pretty ridiculous, although if he was thinking along the lines of Batum + Bayless + Fernandez + Przybilla + Cunningham + two 1st's + cash and taking back a bad contract(s), that becomes a different story. The poster did say "anything" on the Blazer roster, didn't he.

just Aldridge? certainly yours is better, yes, far better?...I don't think so and I explained why previously. I'd view it as basically #4 for #1 because I think there's a very real possibility it could be years before Rubio is over here. And as I also said, if the new CBA constricts rookie salaries and contract terms even further then they currently are, Rubio might not ever come over

Of course, my grade school perspective is tainted by memory. Portland drafted Arvydas Sabonis in 1986. He played his first season for the Blazers in 1995/96, 9 years after Portland drafted him. Sometimes, drafting euro-players just doesn't work out like planned.

Personally, I think the problem which causes POR posters to lose credibility, isn't the over-valueing, or belief (in previous years) that Kevin Pritchard is some sort of basketball guru with a Midas Touch. Its POR posters "us-against-them" mentality. On the Trade Board, they rush to protect each other even for the most preposterous of statements. And you've demonstrated it again right here.

you just can't seem to make your case without using generalities and stereotypes

for chrissakes, will you just re-read that paragraph you wrote that I responded to. You have admitted you based your previous argument on an erroneous assumption of what it was I actually said. Yet you're still using the same argument

The 'us against them' stuff will certainly be evident when a poster like you is busy painting all blazer fans with the same broad brush as you continue to do here.

In other words, if you'd stop being them, I'd stop being us.

You read the POR offers for John Wall, and how bad they were, and I even provided you a link. Instead of going to the Trade Board to try to steer your POR posters back towards sanity, you tried to defend those answers on some other board! You also read the responses from others posters in that thread, and when you choose to simply let the POR statements stand there and you do nothing so you don't offend a POR-brother, you can see why it costs your fanbase credibility for over-hyping. Those were the only two POR offers - the ones that POR posters chose to post. And no POR poster chose to say, "well, maybe that's a little light .. or here's another offer."

the first time I read that thread was when you provided the link. The 2 blazer "proposals" were on the 1st page. By the time I got there, the thread was 5 pages long. When I arrive late to a thread and about 2 dozen people have already said about the same things I'd say, I don't see any reason to put my 2 cents in.

I also don't think it's my responsibility to moderate or temper possible outrageous ideas by a few other Blazer fans. But then, that's just my grade school view that everybody is responsible for their own ideas. Of course, I also don't think that the Blazer fanbase is some malignant, amorphous blob crashing amok around RealGM, or that you are Steve McQueen with a blowtorch.

[Wizenheimer]

but then I think the chances of Rubio being in the NBA in the near future are pretty slim. It's seems very unlikely he'll come over this summer and be here next season. Well, after that, a new CBA may make the NBA real unattractive for high paid euro-players to come over an be locked into rookie-scale contracts, especially if the owners get a lot of what they want. I think people could be underestimating the impacts the new CBA will bring

Hmmm. Do you carry the same "euro's won't want to play for a pittance" when it comes to Rudy? I mean, he came over to POR to play for $1.0 mil 08-09, he got paid $1.1 mil in 09-10, and he only gets $1.2 mil in 2010-11. By comparison, Rubio would get $3 mil, though a CBA could lower it (though I doubt they touch the already cheap rookie scale).

Rudy never made a big deal about the money like Rubio and his handlers have. That's a huge difference

Rudy always said his goal was to play in the NBA as well

And as we've seen just recently, players like Rudy and Ricky always have the leverage of returning (or staying) in Europe

We don't know what form the new CBA will take. I don't think there's much doubt that salaries will be reduced. And since there will be no future draft picks at the negotiating table, it's a safe bet that rookie scale salaries will go down, especially for top picks. Now, it may be that contract duration will be reduced so it's possible that a player on a rookie salary could escape sooner into free agency.

But if Rubio doesn't come over next season and lock into a scale salary under the current CBA, it might be a while before he does come over.

Anyway, if euro's won't play for a pittance, explain Rudy playingfor $1 mil, and better yet, explain why he has any trade value when he'll only gets $1.2 mil next year, and could get so much more in europe? It seems a tad hypocritical.

sheeeesh....now, where exactly was it that I said "euro's won't play for a pittance"???

you made a stink about not liking "words put in your mouth", and yet you're doing that exact thing with me constantly, it seems

I was talking about Ricky Rubio specifically. And I was basing it upon what has happened since Minnesota drafted him.

And the other thing I said was "high paid euro-players" being locked into rookie scale contracts. Especially if those scale contracts grow smaller in the new CBA

and finally, where was it that I said anything about Rudy's trade value?

[shrink]

let me ask...if someone kept referring to your perspective on something as "grade school", would you take it kindly and would it help generate good discussion?

if somebody makes a dumb trade proposal, deal with that trade proposal on it's merits or lack of. Don't go off on an entire fanbase because of some bad ideas by a few posters. That's what is grade school.

I DO have kids in grade school, and I don't let them use as an excuse "but but but .. other people did bad too."

I think your defense of these posts this way was immature, and unworthy of a responsible adult.

How about you try defending them on the merits, and leave out the childishness. Then we'd both be happy.

[shrink]

You read the POR offers for John Wall, and how bad they were, and I even provided you a link. Instead of going to the Trade Board to try to steer your POR posters back towards sanity, you tried to defend those answers on some other board! You also read the responses from others posters in that thread, and when you choose to simply let the POR statements stand there and you do nothing so you don't offend a POR-brother, you can see why it costs your fanbase credibility for over-hyping. Those were the only two POR offers - the ones that POR posters chose to post. And no POR poster chose to say, "well, maybe that's a little light .. or here's another offer."

the first time I read that thread was when you provided the link. The 2 blazer "proposals" were on the 1st page. By the time I got there, the thread was 5 pages long. When I arrive late to a thread and about 2 dozen people have already said about the same things I'd say, I don't see any reason to put my 2 cents in.

I also don't think it's my responsibility to moderate or temper possible outrageous ideas by a few other Blazer fans. But then, that's just my grade school view that everybody is responsible for their own ideas. Of course, I also don't think that the Blazer fanbase is some malignant, amorphous blob crashing amok around RealGM, or that you are Steve McQueen with a blowtorch.

First, its not a timing thing - that's just another excuse. You NEVER accept that responsibility, and that's what costs your fanbase credibility. And its not just with me -- here's another quote from a CHI poster today:

1) GS has a few posters who tend to say "our players rock, your players suck, you just don't know it because you are an EEEEDIOT!!!" Replies like that tend to generate long discussions with lots of involvement. Several fanbases have that and they also get long threads, like Portland.

I'm sorry if that's news to you, but that's not an uncommon perception about most POR posters. I suggest you grab your cojones and try to change that, rather than getting mad at people that point it out.

[Wizenheimer]

let me ask...if someone kept referring to your perspective on something as "grade school", would you take it kindly and would it help generate good discussion?

if somebody makes a dumb trade proposal, deal with that trade proposal on it's merits or lack of. Don't go off on an entire fanbase because of some bad ideas by a few posters. That's what is grade school.

I DO have kids in grade school, and I don't let them use as an excuse "but but but .. other people did bad too."

that's an asinine analogy

do you hold your kids responsible and punish them for misbehavior of other kids in their school?

I think your defense of these posts this way was immature, and unworthy of a responsible adult.

and I think you're full of early-stage fertilizer

there...did we get any further along by exchanging jabs?

How about you try defending them on the merits, and leave out the childishness. Then we'd both be happy.

wrong again. I don't have any responsibility for other people's thinking and I certainly don't have any obligation to defend that thinking

But it's funny you should mention the merits thing. That's what I've been saying you should have done from the beginning: stick with the merits, or lack of merits, of the ideas that bother you instead of hammering away at an entire fanbase based upon a couple of posts in that thread.

but enough of this. You couldn't keep track of what it was you said I initially responded to, and instead have just been intent on making your case that all portland fans are bad because they don't police bad ideas by some Portland fans. Go ahead and grind away on that particular axe, I don't care anymore

[Jaxbeast]

shrink and Wzizenheimer, I'm pretty sure both of you guys have to settle down and get over the issues you're having. This is a thread about Rudy Fernandez, not Blazers posters, proper behavior, or any other nonsense. By arguing about this stuff, you're making both fan bases look bad.

People can post their own opinions on these boards. Attack the opinion, not the person.

Besides I think this thread is losing interest. Just let it go

[shrink]

We both moved on 24 hours ago.

[Narf]

Hmmm. Do you carry the same "euro's won't want to play for a pittance" when it comes to Rudy? I mean, he came over to POR to play for $1.0 mil 08-09, he got paid $1.1 mil in 09-10, and he only gets $1.2 mil in 2010-11. By comparison, Rubio would get $3 mil, though a CBA could lower it (though I doubt they touch the already cheap rookie scale).

Rudy never made a big deal about the money like Rubio and his handlers have. That's a huge difference

Rudy always said his goal was to play in the NBA as well.

1) Rubio has always said his goal was to play in the NBA.
2) Rudy didn't have an 8 million dollar buyout, after taxes. And no, it's not tax deductible in US dollars to pay off a buyout in another country.

Seriously, your logic has gapes wider than J2J.

[Butter]

Well, at one point I thought that Rudy would be an interesting target for the Wolves. However, if the fans are any reflection of the front office, it doesn't appear that Rudy will ever be in a Wolves jersey.

Frankly, that's ok with me. If Rudy is half the player that Blazers fans think he could become, why would we want him in our division? Much better to send him off to an Eastern Conference team and move on.