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Luol Deng

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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#81 » by younggunsmn » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:25 pm

shrink wrote:Nice post younggunsmn. Sometimes its hard to get through your walls of text, but there is always lots of good stuff in each post.

I've been saying for a long long time that Deng isn't worth his contract. $7.5 seems reasonable, though I don't like to compare salaries to deals over two years, since the market has gone down so quickly. I don't know if I feel like the other assets add up enough, though I think that 2012 CHA pick, with the same protections as ours, could be pretty good down the road withthe Bobs older team.

Let me ask this. Suppose we said there''s only one deal we'd do to turn Deng into cap space:

Deng + NOAH for cap space + Hollins

Noah gets paid in 2011. CHI fans love Noah, but if this was on the table, do we do the deal then?


Thanks Shrink. I always appreciate your lust for cap room. But I can't apologize for the walls of text, that's just how I roll.

That bobs pick could be nice, but not that nice. If they offered Noah, even with deng, we would have to do it, but that's an insane offer, they'd never do that.

One alternative I've advocated is Kirk Hinrich + bobs pick + future bulls pick for Ryan Hollins, if we can't find use for our cap room. Much more palatable for us. Hinrich only has 2 years left ($9,000,000 and $8,000,000) and could be dealt for an expiring to the right team. If we can deal him for an expiring, it works out to about 6.67 million of cap space for 2 future firsts. Keep in mind if they add 2 superstars, the value of CHI future picks will drop quite a bit.

Personally I'm kind of getting the feeling that this year's offseason is going to make last year's seem downright dull. Kahn and Rambis can't be very happy with the play and/or attitudes of most of these guys, with a few exceptions like sessions, ellington, darko, and maybe brewer. I expect quite a few big moves, Definitely one or both of al/love, possibly flynn too.

I agree the salary market is headed downward for non-superstar level players. There are going to be downright stupid deals like turkoglu and deng signed every year, but they haven't been as widespread the last couple years. Pretty reasonable deals for guys like Lee and Marvin Williams attest to that. There is a big fight coming in the next CBA. When 20 teams lose a total of 400 million, something has to change. I think we've seen a highwater mark in the salary cap, at least for 5 years or so.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#82 » by shrink » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:27 pm

The underpinning for any of these trades is that it allows them to get tow elite free agents. They are not guaranteed about getting even one with the cap space they have, and the room to add a second may increase their chances.

Anyway, if the deals are in place if they have the cap room, the decision for the Bulls may be:

Keep Deng + Noah + ... get Rudy Gay or a similar

Lose Deng and Noah ... but get Wade + Bosh.

In a situation like that, no matter how much you love Noah, you don't say no to instantly becoming a historic contender. It ain't that insane.

pchrys3 wrote:From a Bulls perspective, there is no chance the Bulls Front Office includes Noah in a deal for capspace we may or may not be able to use. It is believed that they wouldn't include Noah in a S&T for Bosh, there's no chance Noah goes for pure cap space.


You're missing the financial point. Even if I believed that CHI wouldn't include Noah in a Bosh S&T, and I do not, this deal turns DENG into cap space. This is a huge asset as well, especially for a front office as cheap as yours. They get Bosh and the tens of millions down the road to pay for him? That's a big deal.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#83 » by cpfsf » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:04 pm

Min in: Deng, Bobcats pick, #17
Chi in: Jefferson, #23, #45

This should get the deal done.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#84 » by shangrila » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:14 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
shangrila wrote:Wasn't Flynn picked to be traded for Evans if Johnson fell to 18?


That's one rumor. I'm not sure if I buy it. If I remember correctly, Kahn was talking about how Rubio and Flynn would play together almost immediately after the Flynn pick.

Whenever Kahn has talked about getting his guy in this year's draft, he's been using Tyreke as saying that he didn't work hard enough last year to get the guy he wanted, so I'd say that rumour were true.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#85 » by pchrys3 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:31 pm

We wouldn't need to include Noah in a potential S&T deal for Bosh because
A. We wouldn't need to (combination of picks, TPE, Gibson, Johnson, rights to Asik will probably get it done if he WANTS to come here)
B. There are other free agent power forwards that will be available this summer
Boozer/Amare/Lee and Noah > Bosh and Miller/Asik

I wouldn't be surprised if Deng is included in a deal where he winds up in Toronto. A really good playoff series could change the way a lot of teams around the NBA look at Luol this summer. It made us overpay for him after he had the monster series against the defending champ Miami Heat.

We have to wait and see. You may or may not be a good trading partner depending on what happens with the draft. For instance, if you or the Clippers draft someone like Wesley Johnson or Alabi, then it may take you out of the running. Also, where Rudy Gay winds up will matter.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#86 » by sisibilio » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:43 pm

pchrys3 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Deng is included in a deal where he winds up in Toronto. A really good playoff series could change the way a lot of teams around the NBA look at Luol this summer. It made us overpay for him after he had the monster series against the defending champ Miami Heat.

The only possible way of that happening is if youtake Turkoglu in return.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#87 » by pchrys3 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm

They can try to unload Turk's contract on us, but it won't happen. There have been many threads about returns for star player S&T's, you can look historically at the returns.

Here are some posts from the Raptors board regarding a Bosh S&T

klemen4 wrote:
The best team for Bosh is Chicago...with Rose,Noah, Deng it has the best core, great city....

So if Tor makes sign and trade Deng is the best you can get back

by beasknees on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:07 am

I don't think people here understand how sign and trades work. Look, Bosh is gone. The only thing he wants from the Raptors is the extra 30 million on his contract. To that end, he will weigh his options and decide on a particular team that has cap space. The team has to have cap space or Bosh has no leverage to go to the Raps. At that point, faced with losing Bosh to that team no matter what, they might as well get some minor piece or picks back.

Spragga on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:42 am

It'll probably be Bosh for Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Omer Asik and a future 1st

HEKTOR on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:42 pm

Spragga wrote:
It'll probably be Bosh for Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Omer Asik and a future 1st

That wouldn't be too bad, when you think about it. Although I don't really know anything about this Omer Asik guy.

You get the idea, here's the thread viewtopic.php?f=32&t=996965&start=555
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#88 » by shrink » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:59 pm

pchrys3 wrote:We wouldn't need to include Noah in a potential S&T deal for Bosh because
A. We wouldn't need to (combination of picks, TPE, Gibson, Johnson, rights to Asik will probably get it done if he WANTS to come here)
B. There are other free agent power forwards that will be available this summer
Boozer/Amare/Lee and Noah > Bosh and Miller/Asik

I wouldn't be surprised if Deng is included in a deal where he winds up in Toronto. A really good playoff series could change the way a lot of teams around the NBA look at Luol this summer. It made us overpay for him after he had the monster series against the defending champ Miami Heat.

We have to wait and see. You may or may not be a good trading partner depending on what happens with the draft. For instance, if you or the Clippers draft someone like Wesley Johnson or Alabi, then it may take you out of the running. Also, where Rudy Gay winds up will matter.


Your problem here is this.

What if Wade says, "I'll come to CHI, but you have to add Bosh. I'm not joining some rookie team."

You can say that want to give up those assets for Bosh, but you can't get it done under the CBA unless you have the cap space for it. If you don't move Deng or Hinrich, then add Wade .. you're too close to the cap to get a deal done.

Like I said in my last post, the premise of this deal is to find CHI the cap space if they had the deals in place. If that's true, the choices CHI may be facing is between:

1. Keep what you got, No Wade, no Bosh, you still have Deng, and you get a lesser free agent with your current cap space.

2. Add Wade and Add Bosh, get rid of Deng's contract but it costs you Noah.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#89 » by pchrys3 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:44 pm

First, the rookie team you're referring to is much better than what he has in Miami.

If Wade made a statement like that, I would assume Bosh knows how he feels. In that case, Bosh has a lot of influence over which pieces are involved in a S&T for him. If Bosh knew Deng had to be included in a S&T in order for the Bulls to go and sign Wade with cap space, a package involving Deng would be presented to Toronto. Bosh can basically say take whatever package that includes Deng or he can threaten to walk away and take a 5 year full max deal.

Either way, I feel pretty confident we aren't landing two free agents this summer. I think we could be competitive next year if we kept Deng, acquired Bosh through sign and trade, and added the right role players.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#90 » by boogydown » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:37 pm

If Wade said he'd come to Chicago, but first you need to get Chris Bosh to come, then Chicago would do a deal directly with Toronto or Miami not involving Noah. Chicago can offer Gibson + Johnson + 2 Picks + Deng for Bosh straight up and then sign Wade outright.

I just can't find any scenario they have to give up Noah to get what they want. Furthermore, I cant see Wade wanting to come to Chicago with Bosh because either Bosh or Rose would #3 options with zero outside shooting. It won't work. Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh is more realistic and even then why would they want to come play with each other only for one of them to be a #3 option.

In reality, only one max FA is all Chicago needs as a lineup like this would work

Option 1 - Bosh/Amare - 23 PPG
Option 2 - Rose - 23 PPG
Option 3 - Morrow/M. Miller/A Different SG - 14 PPG
Option 4 - Deng - 14 PPG
Option 5 - Noah - 10 PPG
Option 6 - Hinrich - 10 PPG

Right there is 94 points across 6 players not counting the bench. Of course injuries will occur but that team should have no issues scoring 100 PPG and that is all they will do as I fully expect Chicago to sign a defensive coach this time around.

If you have 3 max free agents, I doubt Rose/Bosh even score 20 PPG.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#91 » by shrink » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:01 pm

And if TOR doesn't want Deng's contract?
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#92 » by shangrila » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:10 pm

Haven't you heard? It's a S&T, that stands for Sucks To-Be-You. Basically you take what they give with a smile, even if you hand them a brick of gold and get back an actual brick.
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Re: Luol Deng 

Post#93 » by horaceworthy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:24 pm

pchrys3 wrote:They can try to unload Turk's contract on us, but it won't happen. There have been many threads about returns for star player S&T's, you can look historically at the returns.

Here are some posts from the Raptors board regarding a Bosh S&T

klemen4 wrote:
The best team for Bosh is Chicago...with Rose,Noah, Deng it has the best core, great city....

So if Tor makes sign and trade Deng is the best you can get back

by beasknees on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:07 am

I don't think people here understand how sign and trades work. Look, Bosh is gone. The only thing he wants from the Raptors is the extra 30 million on his contract. To that end, he will weigh his options and decide on a particular team that has cap space. The team has to have cap space or Bosh has no leverage to go to the Raps. At that point, faced with losing Bosh to that team no matter what, they might as well get some minor piece or picks back.

Spragga on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:42 am

It'll probably be Bosh for Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Omer Asik and a future 1st

HEKTOR on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:42 pm

Spragga wrote:
It'll probably be Bosh for Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Omer Asik and a future 1st

That wouldn't be too bad, when you think about it. Although I don't really know anything about this Omer Asik guy.

You get the idea, here's the thread viewtopic.php?f=32&t=996965&start=555

I think sisibilio meant that Chicago likely won't be able to involve Deng in a sign and trade unless they agree to take on Turkeyglue, since it's unlikely that Toronto would want to commit at least $83M over the next 3-4 years on the SF position. Just because the S&T value hasn't been good historically wouldn't force Toronto into doing so. That's a ridiculous amount of money for two non-stars. It's pretty unlikely Chicago would be able to swap Deng for Bosh, unless a third team took on either Deng or Turkoglu. I would be shocked if they were able to do so.
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