Darko is happy, ice cream is cold, and puppies are cute

[Darko Miliminutes]

Darko had an incredible outside shot when he came into the league. he was lightning quick for a 7' guy. he's quick now and he's gained massive amounts of muscle. he was really a athletic freak. dude could pass and blocked shots like nobodies business. what we are seeing now is darko scratching the surface. his offense has taken like 4 steps back compared to what he was when he came into the league.

This was my understanding of Darko as well.
If only Darko had gone to Don Nelson he would have been delighted with Darko.

Actually he and his son got into some trouble for trying to get Darko in a manner against the rules. I don't remember the details at all. But i know they were fined. The Nelsons tried real hard to get Darko.

[Worm Guts]

I do think that a young player can't develop without playing time. Perhaps you disagree, but I can't think of anyone who ever has..

I disagree. Jermaine O'Neal barely played his first 3-4 years in the league, but he continued to progress and became an all-star. Rashard Lewis, Tracy McGrady, and Gerald Wallace are also examples of players who didn't play much early in their careers. In the NFL it's common to let a QB sit and watch his first year as part of his development.

Once it became obvious Milicic wasn't progressing, he got traded.

My point is that in an effort to win games (nothing wrong with that), Darko wasn't developed, and he lost trade value. That was a waste. And since there was no way they could have known they had the horses to beat the Lakers, if there top goal was to win a championship, they should have made a move before the value of their draft pick deteriorated.

My problem here is that you seem to think Detroit should have known Darko wouldn't progress and I don't agree with that. It's just more complicated than that. Joe Dumars had to think more long term than Larry Brown. If Larry Brown doesn't play Darko today, he can change his mind tomorrow. If Dumars trades away Darko, he has to face the ramifications if Darko turns into superstar.
I don't know that Dumars was, or should have been thinking championship until he acquired Rasheed around the deadline. There's also no guarantee that a win now component with comparable value was available for Darko.

[Worm Guts]

'm not saying playing Darko would have cost the Pistons the championship, I'm saying not having Larry Brown would have cost the Pistons the championship. I also think Wade and Anthony would have been much better equipped to handle working with Brown.

That's debatable. Detroit was a 50 win team that made it to the ECF the year before Brown came, one of the 3 or 4 best defensive teams in the NBA, and Carlisle was just a year removed from COTY honors. This was without 4 member's of the '03-04 rotation, most importantly Rasheed Wallace, and two others (Prince and Memo) in their rookie seasons. With Sheed it's very likely they make it to the Finals, and it's also likely that the Shaqobe Lakers still would have collapsed upon themselves like a dying star. Brown's a good coach, but he isn't solely responsible for that '03-04 championship.

Of course it's debatable, and Brown isn't solely responsible, but you take away any part of that team and they probably don't win. I think Larry Brown is a better coach than Rick Carlisle, so that could be the difference between winning the championship or not.

[Krapinsky]

Darko was just overrated at the time he was drafted, much like a lot of Euros at the time. I'm sure when drafted no one thought he would be a four year project. I'm sure they drafted him thinking he would be able to contribue a bit. That wasn't the case. I don't think Larry's to blame for that.

Imagine if Dumars drafted Wade or Melo #2 and traded them for an aging vet that would have helped in the playoffs like Shrink suggests. That's a bad deal.

darko was not overrated at the time of the draft. he wasn't a four year project. go look him up on youtube the atlanta highlights was his first game with extended playing time and he lit it up. projects don't do that. joe drafted him thinking he would be able to step in and upgrade ben wallace as he aged. while making the pistons not have to play 4 on 5 on offense. darko also fit into the pistons defense first mentality. this was back when the pistons were holding teams under 70pts a game. now imagine darko manning the paint. he also fit into the pistons team first unselfish play on offense.

darko had an incredible outside shot when he came into the league. he was lightning quick for a 7' guy. he's quick now and he's gained massive amounts of muscle. he was really a athletic freak. dude could pass and blocked shots like nobodies business. what we are seeing now is darko scratching the surface. his offense has taken like 4 steps back compared to what he was when he came into the league.

darko was the right pick.

He wasn't overrated? he should have been drafted over Carmelo and Wade and Bosh? What about Nickoloz Tskitishvili , they said a lot of the same things about him

[shrink]

I do think that a young player can't develop without playing time. Perhaps you disagree, but I can't think of anyone who ever has..

I disagree. Jermaine O'Neal barely played his first 3-4 years in the league, but he continued to progress and became an all-star. Rashard Lewis, Tracy McGrady, and Gerald Wallace are also examples of players who didn't play much early in their careers. In the NFL it's common to let a QB sit and watch his first year as part of his development.

I guess it occasionally happens. Lets throw out McGrady, but you're right, some guys eventually develop with low minutes. I was surprised though to see how extreme Darko's lack of playing time was. He wasn't even getting half the minutes of these low-minute examples before DET traded him, and he was the highest pick in the bunch:

Minutes per game the first two season:
McGrady 18.4, 22.6
J O'Neal 10.2, 13.5,
G. Wallace 8.0, 12.2
Rashard 7.3, 19.2

Darko 4.7, 6.9 traded

[Worm Guts]

You've also got to consider games played. Rashard Lewis only played in 20 games as a rookie, Jermaine O'neal only played in 45, McGrady played in 64. Some injuries may have been the cause, I don't remember but I think most of these guys just didn't get to play. It was considered normal for rookies straight out of high school (and Darko was even younger than that) to get limited minutes. Even Kobe only played 15 minutes a game as rookie.

[bluethunder0005]

Darko played pretty well in Orlando though for being just 20 after Detroit traded him. They probably would have kept Darko had they not been stupid and given Lewis all of that money. Then Darko went and signed a high paying contract with the Grizzlies and played well his first year there too. You bring up Kobe getting 15 minutes as a rookie, Darko's career minutes average is only 18. How can you expect someone to develop only getting 10-15 minutes a night for their first 5-6 years. Especially since we all have learned Darko's game vastly improves with confidence. It's been said before but Darko would have benefited from the D-League a ton.

[Krapinsky]

It's a catch 22 to minutes matter in a players development. Kwame Brown was the #1 pick -- thus highly scouted -- and got tons of minutes to further his development. Whose fault is it that he sucks? Doug Collins? Phil Jackson? Michael Jordan? Kwame himself? Some picks don't pan out. No matter the circumstances, I wouldn't put much blame on anyone but the player and perhaps the scouting department.

[Worm Guts]

Darko played pretty well in Orlando though for being just 20 after Detroit traded him. They probably would have kept Darko had they not been stupid and given Lewis all of that money. Then Darko went and signed a high paying contract with the Grizzlies and played well his first year there too. You bring up Kobe getting 15 minutes as a rookie, Darko's career minutes average is only 18. How can you expect someone to develop only getting 10-15 minutes a night for their first 5-6 years. Especially since we all have learned Darko's game vastly improves with confidence. It's been said before but Darko would have benefited from the D-League a ton.

If you play well in your 15 minutes, you'll get more. That's typically how it works as young players get better, they get more minutes. If Darko had played like a #2 pick, he wouldn't have received such limited minutes.

[Jackattaq]

Darko played pretty well in Orlando though for being just 20 after Detroit traded him. They probably would have kept Darko had they not been stupid and given Lewis all of that money. Then Darko went and signed a high paying contract with the Grizzlies and played well his first year there too. You bring up Kobe getting 15 minutes as a rookie, Darko's career minutes average is only 18. How can you expect someone to develop only getting 10-15 minutes a night for their first 5-6 years. Especially since we all have learned Darko's game vastly improves with confidence. It's been said before but Darko would have benefited from the D-League a ton.

If you play well in your 15 minutes, you'll get more. That's typically how it works as young players get better, they get more minutes. If Darko had played like a #2 pick, he wouldn't have received such limited minutes.

Not true, you have to take into account that Larry Brown was the coach and nearly all of Darko's teammates raved about his skill level during practice. It was Larry's stubborness that kept him off the court, not his skill level.

[Krapinsky]

So you're just ignoring the fact that he shot 26% when he did play?

He was an 18 year old euro kid. Maybe he could shoot and dribble. But just look at Pekovic. It's not easy to adjust and learn the NBA game. There's no way you're telling me you know better than his coach that he deserved to play more minutes his first two years in the league. Sorry, but I'll take the hall of fame coaches word for it.

[re49gb_2gho32fp]

So you're just ignoring the fact that he shot 26% when he did play?

He was an 18 year old euro kid. Maybe he could shoot and dribble. But just look at Pekovic. It's not easy to adjust and learn the NBA game. There's no way you're telling me you know better than his coach that he deserved to play more minutes his first two years in the league. Sorry, but I'll take the hall of fame coaches word for it.

K,

First let me say that Im indifferent on this topic. I have thought about and digested it countless times and really do not intend to stipulate myself into a debate with Darko's Detroit years.

I just wanted to direct attention to one thing regarding bolded. Surely a kid must felt considerable pressure in performing efficiently after scanning his own roster outlook as time passes, knowing that failures are difficult to tolerate. Certainly this increasingly adds weight on a young player's shoulders, not to mention a non-american one.

It feels as if the point made was taken out of a vital context, K.

[shangrila]

Yeah, wasn't half of the problem that Darko was more of a face-up player while Brown wanted him to be a low post one? 26% is horrible for sure but as a skinny 18 year old I'm not surprised he'd struggle to score in the paint against the NBA athletes.

[horaceworthy]

Of course it's debatable, and Brown isn't solely responsible, but you take away any part of that team and they probably don't win. I think Larry Brown is a better coach than Rick Carlisle, so that could be the difference between winning the championship or not.

I just don't really buy that. If you're talking about about upgrading from someone like Wittman to Brown, sure, but Carlisle's an excellent coach in his own right. It seems unlikely he wouldn't have had his wits about him enough to attack the mismatch in the backcourt (whichever of Billups or Rip that Kobe wasn't guarding), or draw Shaq out on the pick and roll.

I don't understand why people get so bullish about Brown and that Detroit team (although I guess the media pounding the Brown finally gets a ring angle to the ground has something to do with it). It had as much, if not more to do with the addition of Sheed (who had been the best player on that Blazer team that pushed the Lakers to the brink earlier in their Shaqobe years) and the implosion of that Laker squad than it did anything Brown did. It's also not like the Pistons just eked out that series against the Lakers. That was a 4-1 series and just about every Detroit victory was a resounding one.

It's a catch 22 to minutes matter in a players development. Kwame Brown was the #1 pick -- thus highly scouted -- and got tons of minutes to further his development. Whose fault is it that he sucks? Doug Collins? Phil Jackson? Michael Jordan? Kwame himself? Some picks don't pan out. No matter the circumstances, I wouldn't put much blame on anyone but the player and perhaps the scouting department.

I'm not sure I'd bring up the other well known recent example of an authority figure playing a prominent role in breaking the spirit of a highly drafted player in support of Brown's handling of Darko.

It's pretty obvious and well documented that both Larry Brown and Darko handled the Detroit situation poorly. Brown's a good coach, but he has his faults. His work with that Detroit team is vindicated by the ring, but that doesn't mean he was infallible during his time there.

Kwame's proven in his time post MJ that there wasn't as much to work with as originally thought, so it may not have really mattered how he was handled. In light of Darko's recent play it makes it a little more intriguing to play the what could have been game, even though it's more than likely Darko would have gotten in his own way even if Larry Brown hadn't.

[Grits n Gravy]

yeah i agree, it's both guys fault..as mentioned previously..the d league would have been HUGE for darko in his detroit days, absolutely massive....brown has no fore sight, he has no idea how to develop and nuture young players, he will always give time to a 34 year old vet who won't be on the team next year rather than play a 21 year old rookie who could help the team win, but not as much as the 34 year old guy. brown was also the one who benched melo and lebron at the 2004 olympics, so that goes to show he doesn;t like young guys.

one can only imagine what it would be like for a 17 year old from serbia, who had grown up through war and lived by himself since he was 14 or 15 to ll of a sudden be thrust into a completely different culture, different language..massive hype and expectations, given millions of dollars and sit on the bench. he needed his family there or at least an assigned mentor and personal coach. as he once said, he was very close to just hoping on a plane and going home in the middle of the season. i think it was a toxic environment for him to be in, but darko also definitely could have handled it and worked much better/harder.

[Someone Else]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8lWnCvxttw

He was always knows to play, just didnt get a chance.
Imagine him in Minny 4 years age, what he would become now.

[Someone Else]

Darko played pretty well in Orlando though for being just 20 after Detroit traded him. They probably would have kept Darko had they not been stupid and given Lewis all of that money. Then Darko went and signed a high paying contract with the Grizzlies and played well his first year there too. You bring up Kobe getting 15 minutes as a rookie, Darko's career minutes average is only 18. How can you expect someone to develop only getting 10-15 minutes a night for their first 5-6 years. Especially since we all have learned Darko's game vastly improves with confidence. It's been said before but Darko would have benefited from the D-League a ton.

If you play well in your 15 minutes, you'll get more. That's typically how it works as young players get better, they get more minutes. If Darko had played like a #2 pick, he wouldn't have received such limited minutes.

Nope, he was geting 4, 5 minutes per game in 4 times per one minute. Who would develop?
At least that was getting 10, 15 minutes at a time, not fragmented, and perhaps would be somewhat.

[Worm Guts]

The specific post I responded to mentioned his playing time through his first 5-6 years. He did get consistent playing time at times in Orlando.

[Worm Guts]

Of course it's debatable, and Brown isn't solely responsible, but you take away any part of that team and they probably don't win. I think Larry Brown is a better coach than Rick Carlisle, so that could be the difference between winning the championship or not.

I just don't really buy that. If you're talking about about upgrading from someone like Wittman to Brown, sure, but Carlisle's an excellent coach in his own right. It seems unlikely he wouldn't have had his wits about him enough to attack the mismatch in the backcourt (whichever of Billups or Rip that Kobe wasn't guarding), or draw Shaq out on the pick and roll.

I don't understand why people get so bullish about Brown and that Detroit team (although I guess the media pounding the Brown finally gets a ring angle to the ground has something to do with it). It had as much, if not more to do with the addition of Sheed (who had been the best player on that Blazer team that pushed the Lakers to the brink earlier in their Shaqobe years) and the implosion of that Laker squad than it did anything Brown did. It's also not like the Pistons just eked out that series against the Lakers. That was a 4-1 series and just about every Detroit victory was a resounding one.
.

I don't why you bring up Sheed. I'm not saying he wasn't important or probably even more important, but if you downgrade at any position your going to get worse and Carlisle isn't the coach that Larry Brown is. Regardless of how the series played out, it doesn't take a huge downgrade to go from champion to runner up especially when your playing a team with Shaq, Kobe, and Phil Jackson.

[bball_jay]

The specific post I responded to mentioned his playing time through his first 5-6 years. He did get consistent playing time at times in Orlando.

darko was misused in orlando as dwights backup instead of twin towers. darko had a stubborn coach who wanted to play the vet over him (battie). darko should have started. battie got hurt and darko played next to dwight he raised dwights game to a new level. darko has consistently not been rewarded for good play with increased minutes. only minnesota. but it's difficult to develop as a big man. darko has only played a little time not behind an all star big man.

detroit = rasheed wallace, ben wallace
orlando = dwight howard
memphis = pau gasol.