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Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North)

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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#421 » by Vindicater » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:20 pm

LordBaldric wrote:Sorry your Nazi friends lost the war in a big way...
Must be hard for you to admit that the inferior Slavic race beat you...


Beat me? I am an Australian with a Croatian background, way to jump to conclusions douchebag. Just because I actually studied history and have an opinion does not mean I am sympathetic to a side.

The USSR lost upwards of 20 million lives during the war. The entire third reich lost around 8 million. The USSR lost a whopping 14% of its population, that is a huge amount. The third reich lost the war against not only the USSR but against other countries as well and still only lost 10% of its total population.

The Third Reich was an effeicent and methodical killing machine during its peak. Its generals were tactically superior and its war machines and weaponry were advanced.

Now does that mean they should have won? No. They made some grave errors in judgement and simply overextended their reach.

Attacking a country with over 7 times your population on their home ground in the dead of winter while also trying to solidify your position on your western borders was suicide from the beginning.
"That's why the last two years weren't guaranteed," Walsh said. "Either way, he knew it could have happened either way."
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#422 » by UK-Wolf » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:51 pm

Vindicater wrote:
LordBaldric wrote:Sorry your Nazi friends lost the war in a big way...
Must be hard for you to admit that the inferior Slavic race beat you...


Beat me? I am an Australian with a Croatian background, way to jump to conclusions douchebag. Just because I actually studied history and have an opinion does not mean I am sympathetic to a side.

The USSR lost upwards of 20 million lives during the war. The entire third reich lost around 8 million. The USSR lost a whopping 14% of its population, that is a huge amount. The third reich lost the war against not only the USSR but against other countries as well and still only lost 10% of its total population.

The Third Reich was an effeicent and methodical killing machine during its peak. Its generals were tactically superior and its war machines and weaponry were advanced.

Now does that mean they should have won? No. They made some grave errors in judgement and simply overextended their reach.

Attacking a country with over 7 times your population on their home ground in the dead of winter while also trying to solidify your position on your western borders was suicide from the beginning.

This.

Though the Nazi's practically pissed on Russia until the Winter kicked in, it was a bad, bad move. I still can't believe the Nazi/Soviet pact was agreed. That must've been the most false pact ever. Nearly as bad as Neville Chamberlain's cock up.
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#423 » by shangrila » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:10 am

War between those two was inevitable though. I mean, the only reason they signed the pact was that Russia was too weak after overthrowing the Tzars following the 1st World War and Germany didn't want to have to keep a complete garrison on the border and thus weaken their forces in other parts of Europe.

But Russia had strong connections with a lot of the states Germany took over in central Europe so they were just biding their time. If anything Germany should have attacked earlier; their main problem wasn't winning battles, it was eventually fighting 3 superpowers (Britain, America and Russia) all at once.
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#424 » by Piecake » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:44 am

shangrila wrote:War between those two was inevitable though. I mean, the only reason they signed the pact was that Russia was too weak after overthrowing the Tzars following the 1st World War and Germany didn't want to have to keep a complete garrison on the border and thus weaken their forces in other parts of Europe.

But Russia had strong connections with a lot of the states Germany took over in central Europe so they were just biding their time. If anything Germany should have attacked earlier; their main problem wasn't winning battles, it was eventually fighting 3 superpowers (Britain, America and Russia) all at once.


Silly Germans. They should have used their time more efficiently
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#425 » by shangrila » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:03 pm

I'm not advocating what they did, but I studied World War 2 pretty thoroughly in school and that's the biggest thing I noticed. The Germans could have won that war a lot more then people think or give them credit for.
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#426 » by Foye » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:30 pm

shangrila wrote:I'm not advocating what they did, but I studied World War 2 pretty thoroughly in school and that's the biggest thing I noticed. The Germans could have won that war a lot more then people think or give them credit for.


Actually, I think we would've won if it wasn't for that megalomania of attacking the Russians as well. That move basically lost the war.

Anyway, it's better that we lost. :giveup:
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#427 » by Piecake » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:46 pm

shangrila wrote:I'm not advocating what they did, but I studied World War 2 pretty thoroughly in school and that's the biggest thing I noticed. The Germans could have won that war a lot more then people think or give them credit for.


I wasnt implying that. I was simply making a joke about Germans and efficiency
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#428 » by UK-Wolf » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:29 pm

shangrila wrote:War between those two was inevitable though. I mean, the only reason they signed the pact was that Russia was too weak after overthrowing the Tzars following the 1st World War and Germany didn't want to have to keep a complete garrison on the border and thus weaken their forces in other parts of Europe.

But Russia had strong connections with a lot of the states Germany took over in central Europe so they were just biding their time. If anything Germany should have attacked earlier; their main problem wasn't winning battles, it was eventually fighting 3 superpowers (Britain, America and Russia) all at once.

That's basically what I was saying, they were total opposites politically and we all know what Hitler thought about communists. The Nazi's, as you say, took on far, far too much and they hadn't strong enough or big enough allies. Italy, Japan, Romania/Finland were far from what the Allies had to offer in terms of manpower. One thing I'd say that never got enough credit was the resistance forces around the World, the Partisans in Yugoslavia, the French resistance and many, many more. Without the efforts of them I think the war could've dragged on for a lot longer too. Instead of trying to rush the capture of Moscow Hiter should've bolstered what he had gained in the Soviet Union, instead he got too greedy and desperate to get Moscow..thank god too because had he captured Moscow I'd have definitely been a very worried man.
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#429 » by younggunsmn » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:48 pm

They were NOT on opposite sides politically, the Soviets just embraced pure socialism (Marxism) while the Nazi's went halfway (state-run capitalism with socialist programs. essentially a government-run economy). The Communist Party in Germany's slogan during Hitler's rise was "First Brown, Then Red", and they largely supported his rise to power. He turned on them once he had consolidated power, because they were a threat to that power. The big difference was that Hitler's was essentially a nationalist (NAZI, National Socialist German Workers Party) movement, while the Soviets objective was spreading Marxism globally (which they quite succeeded at after the war).

Corporatism.

German businesses did what the govenment wanted, and the government let them exist and helped prop up their monopolies as long as they supported the party and the war effort. (The US is practicing the same Corporatist policy right now with GM, Chrysler, Health Insurance, AIG, Fannie & Freddie, and the Bank Bailouts. The Federal Reserve is an original example of a corporatist institution).

You provide the cars, insurance policies, bank loans that the government approves of, the government runs your smaller competition out of business through excessive regulations and mandates, refuses to enforce anti-trust laws, and even floats you a loan if you need one (with phantom money from the FED stolen silently from the people through inflation). That's corporatism in a nutshell. And central banking is key to it all.

To be truly opposite politically they would have had a very weak and decentralized government along the lines of the US under the Articles of Confederation.
Every time I hear someone infer Hitler was right wing it makes me cringe.
There is Total Government (Tyranny) at the end of the left wing of the political spectrum,
and Total Absence of Govenment (anarchy) at the end of the right wing of the political spectrum.
If 0 is anarchy, and 10 Tyranny, Hitler was an 8 and Stalin a 10, in regards to how they ran their own countries.

Had Stalin not been willing to starve his people to fund the war effort, the Germans might have succeeded in Russia. They definitely should have taken Britain before attacking Russia. It would have been much, much harder for the US to retake Europe without Britain as a base to operate from. It was really the ability of the British to hold out (and their air bombing campaign of germany) that allowed the Allies to hold out long enough for the US to mobilize. Had Britain fallen, Stalin may have conquered all of Europe had Germany invaded Russia or not.
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Re: Wolves at Clippers (9:30, FS North) 

Post#430 » by eyeteeth » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:16 pm

The Germans had a manpower issue. I think the Russian and German fighting was inevitable, their politics might not have been "opposites" but they were very antagonistic. The extent to which there was a tolerance for Communism in Nazi Germany was all about the fact that Communist Party members were "true believers" who wanted to participate in a movement and so made better converts than did middle of the road believers in a democratic government. Given that the fighting between these two parties was inevitable, there was no way the Nazis could keep up with the continuing demand for troops. There were some pivotal battles that could have gone to the Nazis, but mostly it was a matter of how long it would have taken. The math was against them, they were going to lose almost no matter what.
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