Trading DWilliams for Upgrade at SG or C?

[Narf]

I don't understand why people want to sell low on Williams. It's crazy. He's worth way more than what's being offered for him. That or 5 good games in a row will apparently double his trade value.

[[RCG]]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/138441234.html

He thinks we could put Beasley at the 2. If that is so we can have Johnson at the three.

Rubio/Ridnour/Barea
Beasley/Ellington
Johnson/Webster
Love/Williams
Pekovic/Milicic

[C.lupus]

He would get absolutely torched on defense every night. That's a bad, bad idea.

[[RCG]]

He would get absolutely torched on defense every night. That's a bad, bad idea.

I think the idea was offensively play him like the 2 guard. Defensively Wes could cover the 2 and Beasley would cover the 3.

[EddyCool]

Yeah, a few things:

If Souhan is giving an opinion that he's not copying, it's probably terrible. Just awful.

Beasley doesn't need to be a guard to drive and shoot and pass. If Beasley and Johnson start together, it's going to look the same as it does when Wes is the shooting guard, no matter how they're announced. No way does Beasley guard or be guarded opponents shooting guards if Wes is out there with him.

WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT THRILLED THAT WE HAVE DERRICK WILLIAMS!?!

I know it'll be great if we make the playoffs this season, and I know that's what Adelman's coaching for. It's why we go through stretches where DW, AR, Pek, Darko, Wayne, Beas, Tolliver and Wes see the bench a lot more. It's kind of like everyone is on a short leash, but there's no doghouse. It's not going well for someone? Get them out. Find someone that's got it going and ride them and see if we can get the wins. They struggle a bit? Go to someone else, etc. If we were in last season's position, Derrick would be playing 30+ a night and we'd be talking about trading everyone else (except Kevin and Ricky). Rookie struggles and adjustments are totally acceptable when your expectations are not making the playoffs for the first time in forever.

BUT WE ARE WINNING (relative). Adelman is showing the results and finding the guys that are working per night, and we're getting more wins than most of us expected (except Lobishome who's on pace to win his prediction). If we do something DW for Kevin Martin and Dalembert, we'll be better this year, and maybe next year, but it's not worth it. Ricky is a ROOKIE. Kevin is here for 3+, and if it goes well, that can become 5-10. You don't trade Derrick Williams on the first year of his rookie contract for somebody who's only going to be better than him for a year or two and will be making substantially more than him for the next 4 years. It's insane.

Derrick Williams is awesome, and we're all just going to have to figure out how to be ok with that.

[Esohny]

The problem isn't that Derrick Williams is "awesome." Your problem with this seems to be that you project him to become awesome enough to be a must-keep and dislike that other people don't project him the same way.

I haven't seen anybody who wants to trade him just to get rid of him. People want to trade him because there are major needs to be filled elsewhere on the roster and it's highly unlikely that Williams is ever as good/better than the guy ahead of him on the depth chart.

[change]

dwill is too good to be trading for someone like kevin martin who will be in his 30s when we're ready to contend

I'm fine with trading him but it shouldn't be for anyone over 26ish

[john2jer]

What does everyone think of Williams for Fredette, straight up?
Don't let his current numbers in SAC, fool you, I don't think the system there works for him at all. Or maybe Williams and Ridnour for Fredette and Thornton? Although the latter, is a lot more unlikely.

Seriously, find a new hobby.

[mvplayur]

What does everyone think of Williams for Fredette, straight up?
Don't let his current numbers in SAC, fool you, I don't think the system there works for him at all. Or maybe Williams and Ridnour for Fredette and Thornton? Although the latter, is a lot more unlikely.

Seriously, find a new hobby.

Shutup.

[john2jer]

What does everyone think of Williams for Fredette, straight up?
Don't let his current numbers in SAC, fool you, I don't think the system there works for him at all. Or maybe Williams and Ridnour for Fredette and Thornton? Although the latter, is a lot more unlikely.

Seriously, find a new hobby.

Shutup.

Is the appropriate response, "Make me?"

[EddyCool]

Your problem with this seems to be that you project him to become awesome enough to be a must-keep and dislike that other people don't project him the same way.

I'm a big fan of Derrick, and I believe you've stated several times that you're not big on him being the number 2 pick. We differ on that, and it is acknowledged.

I haven't seen anybody who wants to trade him just to get rid of him. People want to trade him because there are major needs to be filled elsewhere on the roster and it's highly unlikely that Williams is ever as good/better than the guy ahead of him on the depth chart.

The point that I too enthusiastically tried to make is that at this point in our progress as a team, it is insane to trade the number 2 pick in the first year on his rookie contract - one that is scaled so it will be difficult to ever look at him as overpaid, and he should surpass the value of in a year or two - for upgrades at today's positions of need.

We are doing well this year and it's great, but trying to fix this team to be better for the next 2 seasons is doing it wrong. We are better this year, and we are going to be better than this next year despite ourselves (and barring injury). They are big years for the franchise, but I think it's important people realize that the third year is bigger (and the fourth), and if it's successful we're looking good for Kevin/Ricky re-up, etc., etc. Not to say we should always load up on potential, but the team needs to be good and getting better to keep Ricky and Kevin together. If we're not both, there's a lot less reason to stick around.

Derrick is the franchise's third most-valuable asset, and I can't imagine there's any disagreement on that, and moving him just to improve this season and next is foolish, and moving him to improve the next 10 at this point is a long-shot to impossible if it doesn't involve high-risk/reward factor that we shouldn't invite (whether it be a history of injuries or stupidity).

As far as good/better than the guy ahead of him on the depth chart, I assume you mean Love. While it might sound crazy for me to disagree with how casually you make the, "Love and Williams can only be power forwards," an absolute scenario, it may not be such an obstacle to for a decent coach to work around. They're not redundant talents at all.

[Esohny]

I don't understand this position that any trade including Williams is only going to improve the team for "the next 2 seasons." If you simply had an issue with something like trading Williams for someone like Steve Nash, who is in his late 30s, then it's fine. But you seem to think trading for any veteran is comparable.

Williams's trade value could go either way. I can argue that his trade value can only go down as his rookie contract gets closer to its end, and other teams get to see his warts.

[EddyCool]

Williams's trade value could go either way. I can argue that his trade value can only go down as his rookie contract gets closer to its end, and other teams get to see his warts.

At this point, you could apply the same argument against Kyrie Irving and Jonas and Ricky Rubio. At this point in any of their careers, it wouldn't be terribly apt.

I don't understand this position that any trade including Williams is only going to improve the team for "the next 2 seasons." If you simply had an issue with something like trading Williams for someone like Steve Nash, who is in his late 30s, then it's fine. But you seem to think trading for any veteran is comparable.

I'm not talking about players near retirement like Nash. I'm talking about the value of high draft picks on their rookie contracts. Obviously if you can get an elite player, you move on it. That's not realistic, though, so I'm getting at realistic players that could be available or could be had.

The point is the value of having a very good player on rookie-scale gives 1) a player who is worth more than his salary and 2) a better opportunity to add without subtraction. If we trade Derrick for a player like Eric Gordon, Kevin Martin or Marc Gasol, we have that player and little opportunity to add past them.

Right now, if we decide to go away from Beas/Randolph and look to fill-in with short-term (2 years or less) vets in free agency, we're looking at (if we pick up Wes and decline Darko) under $35 million in commited salary summer of 2013 with Love/Rubio/DW/JJ/Wes/Ridnour/Lee before drat picks, and Luke/Wes expiring the next summer. Unless a move is made to add a fat contract, that's up to a max with Love/Rubio/DW as a core to attract.

If you move DW and for Gasol or Gordon, you probably add $6-9 million ($9 million summer 2013 if it's Gasol) to the committed salaries in those summers. Kevin Martin expires after next season, and if he'll sign for anywhere near the $6 million you're paying Williams, I'd say he's not worth the trade to begin with for more than 2 years, and Dalembert is gone and worthless by then. With Williams, you keep the number 2 pick and a shot to work towards adding another big peice.

Don't take this like I'm saying **Summer 2013 Air Jordan and Manute Bol are signing in Minnesota! Everybody chicken-dance!** But I believe the value of having Derrick Williams in-hand plus increased financial opportunity is greater reward and less risk than the best of these value-for-value suggestions. Gordon feels like a great fit, but he's missing more and more games each season. If you go for Gasol, you get (what shrink said and I agree with) a great at nothing/good at everything center. If that's worth the $14/15/16 millions he's owed after this year, he better be enough to make this a championship contender with Love/Rubio, because we're not likely to have the opportunity - maybe not event the means - to hand out another big contract. You're going to have these questions for any of the intriguing names thrown around here. They're all just closer to be either paid or disappointing than Derrick is.

If you feel that Derrick is not going to be better than ok in the NBA, that's a totally legit premise to suggest trading him from. I disagree, but I'm not going to assume either of us is right or wrong about the future.

[Esohny]

Williams's trade value could go either way. I can argue that his trade value can only go down as his rookie contract gets closer to its end, and other teams get to see his warts.

At this point, you could apply the same argument against Kyrie Irving and Jonas and Ricky Rubio. At this point in any of their careers, it wouldn't be terribly apt.

The huge difference would be that Rubio and Irving have actually shown something (as NBA starters no less), and Jonas hasn't started the clock on his rookie deal or underperformed in the NBA.