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Trade Talk (Part Two)

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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1681 » by minimus » Wed Oct 2, 2019 9:08 pm

wolves_89 wrote:Another guy I'd look at on the trade market is Frank Ntilikina. It sounds like there's a question of whether the Knicks are going to pick up his 4th year option, so the cost should be pretty reasonable. Ntilikina has the size/length (6'6" with a 7'1" wingspan) to provide switching options on defense and still has upside due to his age (21 years old). I really think the Wolves need to find a defensive oriented PG that has the size to work in a switching defensive scheme.

If we offer them one of our PFs, they won't resist for sure
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1682 » by andyhop » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:29 am

wolves_89 wrote:Another guy I'd look at on the trade market is Frank Ntilikina. It sounds like there's a question of whether the Knicks are going to pick up his 4th year option, so the cost should be pretty reasonable. Ntilikina has the size/length (6'6" with a 7'1" wingspan) to provide switching options on defense and still has upside due to his age (21 years old). I really think the Wolves need to find a defensive oriented PG that has the size to work in a switching defensive scheme.


Given he isn't very good defensively and is awful on offense , you would have to get him for and pay him basically nothing , then hope time in the G League develops him
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1683 » by wolves_89 » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:49 am

andyhop wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:Another guy I'd look at on the trade market is Frank Ntilikina. It sounds like there's a question of whether the Knicks are going to pick up his 4th year option, so the cost should be pretty reasonable. Ntilikina has the size/length (6'6" with a 7'1" wingspan) to provide switching options on defense and still has upside due to his age (21 years old). I really think the Wolves need to find a defensive oriented PG that has the size to work in a switching defensive scheme.


Given he isn't very good defensively and is awful on offense , you would have to get him for and pay him basically nothing , then hope time in the G League develops him


I think it would be a good risk to take a chance on a guy who recently turned 21, has an impressive set of physical tools, and is coming off a strong FIBA performance in the off-season. He's exactly the type of buy low guy the team needs to be looking at in the hopes he can realize his significant upside. The Wolves have literally no PG on the roster that has much of a chance of being around next season, so going after young high upside guys who have struggled and can be obtained cheaply makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1684 » by Klomp » Thu Oct 3, 2019 7:30 am

You know I never really thought about it before, but Ryno was Beal's assistant coach for two seasons before he came back home.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1685 » by Jedzz » Thu Oct 3, 2019 12:35 pm

wolves_89 wrote:, so going after young high upside guys who have struggled and can be obtained cheaply makes a lot of sense to me.


Forgive me for just focusing on this sentence, but I'm good with the rest of what you were saying. It's this part that concerns me. I struggle with a mantra of "give us your failed experiments so we can give them a second shot." There are so many other players deserving out there. I would rather widen the view of players we are willing to give a shot to in order to include those who didn't ride draft hype and free minutes and fail already.

Just for an example, I remember Anthony Bennett getting thrown into the Wiggins/Love trade and it meant two former #1 overall picks coming back for Love. Let's just say it didn't exactly go as it did and instead he showed just enough to keep people hopeful kind of like Wiggins has been doing for years now. What would his contract have been? We'd be sitting here now with two players at huge contracts that are still riddled with flaws by still riding on hype from years back. Those kinds of repercussions should also be in the discussion when talking about a top 10 hyped draft player getting a second shot.

The hype on a players upside built on things like measurements, forward hoping should only go so far. As soon as they start playing in the NBA you start to get a more tangible view that far surpasses anything prior.

Frank Ntilikina's measurables apparently wasn't such a great thing for his position that it covered up his other weaknesses. His shooting and assisting getting worse over two seasons, getting significantly worse with more starts. So how do the Timberwolves, if not having a starting PG on roster for next year, find hope in someone like that? .337 FG, .287 3fg, 2.8 assists, .417 TS%, 115 Drating, Negative winshares, I mean how? How do we keep selling ourselves on things like a 6-6 guy with long reach? Because he can rebound, maybe? Great, he was an 8th overall pick. Sure, it's possible new scenery sparks something different in him. Is it really worth the risk knowing what he's done in two seasons? Someone else said it already. It would have to be a Gleague only now and he would have to play his way out of that bag, to me. I realize you said cheap, but I fail to see how it looks like a cheap "starter solution" at any point now.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1686 » by wolves_89 » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:27 pm

Jedzz wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:, so going after young high upside guys who have struggled and can be obtained cheaply makes a lot of sense to me.


Forgive me for just focusing on this sentence, but I'm good with the rest of what you were saying. It's this part that concerns me. I struggle with a mantra of "give us your failed experiments so we can give them a second shot." There are so many other players deserving out there. I would rather widen the view of players we are willing to give a shot to in order to include those who didn't ride draft hype and free minutes and fail already.

Just for an example, I remember Anthony Bennett getting thrown into the Wiggins/Love trade and it meant two former #1 overall picks coming back for Love. Let's just say it didn't exactly go as it did and instead he showed just enough to keep people hopeful kind of like Wiggins has been doing for years now. What would his contract have been? We'd be sitting here now with two players at huge contracts that are still riddled with flaws by still riding on hype from years back. Those kinds of repercussions should also be in the discussion when talking about a top 10 hyped draft player getting a second shot.

The hype on a players upside built on things like measurements, forward hoping should only go so far. As soon as they start playing in the NBA you start to get a more tangible view that far surpasses anything prior.

Frank Ntilikina's measurables apparently wasn't such a great thing for his position that it covered up his other weaknesses. His shooting and assisting getting worse over two seasons, getting significantly worse with more starts. So how do the Timberwolves, if not having a starting PG on roster for next year, find hope in someone like that? .337 FG, .287 3fg, 2.8 assists, .417 TS%, 115 Drating, Negative winshares, I mean how? How do we keep selling ourselves on things like a 6-6 guy with long reach? Because he can rebound, maybe? Great, he was an 8th overall pick. Sure, it's possible new scenery sparks something different in him. Is it really worth the risk knowing what he's done in two seasons? Someone else said it already. It would have to be a Gleague only now and he would have to play his way out of that bag, to me. I realize you said cheap, but I fail to see how it looks like a cheap "starter solution" at any point now.


I am perfectly comfortable taking a risk on a guy who just turned 21 and is coming off a summer where he played pretty well in FIBA competition. If the Wolves want to climb in the West, they are going to have to find a few guys who haven't yet found success and help them realize their upside. Ntilikina seems like a perfect candidate due his age and physical toolset. There are no guarantees with guys like this, but with the Wolves current situation I see little downside in taking chances on extremely young guys who have struggled but have a high ceiling.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1687 » by Jedzz » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:40 pm

wolves_89 wrote:I am perfectly comfortable taking a risk on a guy who just turned 21 and is coming off a summer where he played pretty well in FIBA competition. If the Wolves want to climb in the West, they are going to have to find a few guys who haven't yet found success and help them realize their upside. Ntilikina seems like a perfect candidate due his age and physical toolset. There are no guarantees with guys like this, but with the Wolves current situation I see little downside in taking chances on extremely young guys who have struggled but have a high ceiling.


Ok that's fine and that's your statement. My question to that is why wouldn't you be fine with, or more excited about, the option of giving any number of hundreds of young players out there that shot instead because you haven't seen them fail yet? I guarantee it that right now there are players that just never yet got that shot to play and prove anything that can play and could positively help your team from day 1, had they just gotten the chance. The problem seems to be finding them and I can kind of see why. Instead of giving these others a chance, too many people want to rewash the prior draft hyped hopefuls to see if our team of coaches can better help these failed prospects than the last set of coaches that tried. Not enough people will look beyond what amounts to failed draft analysis of these prior drafts. But if they failed to project a top 10 player, isn't also possible that they failed to see better players that dropped much further or right out of the draft? I think there is a large body of players that will never get that chance because not enough teams will look beyond what the draft process originally claimed about them or didn't claim about them. We would somehow rather take risks on reclamation projects that have proven to have a problem at this level already.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1688 » by wolves_89 » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:54 pm

Jedzz wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:I am perfectly comfortable taking a risk on a guy who just turned 21 and is coming off a summer where he played pretty well in FIBA competition. If the Wolves want to climb in the West, they are going to have to find a few guys who haven't yet found success and help them realize their upside. Ntilikina seems like a perfect candidate due his age and physical toolset. There are no guarantees with guys like this, but with the Wolves current situation I see little downside in taking chances on extremely young guys who have struggled but have a high ceiling.


Ok that's fine and that's your statement. My question to that is why wouldn't you be fine with, or more excited about, the option of giving any number of hundreds of young players out there that shot instead because you haven't seen them fail yet? I guarantee it that right now there are players that just never yet got that shot to play and prove anything that can play and could positively help your team from day 1, had they just gotten the chance. The problem seems to be finding them and I can kind of see why. Instead of giving these others a chance, too many people want to rewash the prior draft hyped hopefuls to see if our team of coaches can better help these failed prospects than the last set of coaches that tried. Not enough people will look beyond what amounts to failed draft analysis of these prior drafts. But if they failed to project a top 10 player, isn't also possible that they failed to see better players that dropped much further or right out of the draft? I think there is a large body of players that will never get that chance because not enough teams will look beyond what the draft process originally claimed about them or didn't claim about them. We would somehow rather take risks on reclamation projects that have proven to have a problem at this level already.


I'd be perfectly happy to see the Wolves investigate any number of young players, but I'm highly skeptical that finding high ceiling talent in the G-League or overseas is all that likely. There are reasons the guys in the G-League and overseas aren't in the NBA.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1689 » by KGdaBom » Thu Oct 3, 2019 8:08 pm

wesleyt95 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
wesleyt95 wrote:Also if we trade for Beal we have literally no assets to go and get Blake

Wesley you are getting close to ignore territory again. You don't want to acquire Beal, because it might hurt our chances with Blake?
Did I actually read you right?

Idk who u think u are, do as you please

Beal is 10 times the player Blake is.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1690 » by wesleyt95 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:27 am

At some point in the future...
Dieng, Okogie 2 1sts 2020, 2022 for Blake Griffin

Culver Napier
Wiggins Graham Nowell
Covington Layman Keita
Griffin Vonleh Keita
Towns Naz Bell

We could probably sign a better backup pg
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1691 » by KGdaBom » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:55 am

wesleyt95 wrote:At some point in the future...
Dieng, Okogie 2 1sts 2020, 2022 for Blake Griffin

Culver Napier
Wiggins Graham Nowell
Covington Layman Keita
Griffin Vonleh Keita
Towns Naz Bell

We could probably sign a better backup pg

Think we could get Zion instead LOL. Without trading KAT that is. Blake is deteriorating. His knees can't hold up. His game will fall off a cliff very soon. Griffin should not be a trade target unless he comes very cheap.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1692 » by Norseman79 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:35 pm

Hey guys, been a while. I hope all are doing well.

Two thoughts on some trades....1rst, for clarity. I do believe Culver will end up being our PG. This allows some flexibility for Mr. Teague. I also believe our biggest gap right now is the 4, which I personally think Bell will step into and run away with. So we are looking to balance the roster and find key role players.

Dieng, Okogie,and fill to Sac for Giles and Hield.

Sactown could use Dieng, and Okogie gives them something different and a nice option next to Fox. We take a flier on a young guy in Giles who hasn't been able to stay healthy and add a sniper in Hield/6th man. Other moving parts may need to be added to make salaries work out.


The next trade is typical throw crap on the board/it works on trade machine stuff....

MN in - Ilbaka, Dunn, Gafford
out- Teague, Dieng, Okogie, BatesD, Graham (salary balancing stuff)

Chi in - Lowry, Dieng
out - Gafford, Porter Jr., Felicio, Dunn

Toronto in - Porter Jr., Teague, Felicio, Okogie, Graham, Bates Diop
out - Ilbaka, Lowry

Obviously lots of working parts and draft picks would need to be worked in. Raptors want something for their soft reset. Lowry to Chicago makes sense for Bulls as it gives White time to grow into starting PG. Lowry and Lavine would be a fun backcourt, and Dieng gives them a center to play next to Markinen or Carter. It doesn't sound like they are in love with Otto Porter, wich makes flipping him understandable.

Raptors would go from deep, to insanely deep. Starting Van Fleet with Porter, Anunoby, and Siakam to go along with Gasol for now. Allows them to keep depth with Teague, Okogie, and the several wings they have signed. Also puts them in place to create cap space in near future for resigning players.

Wolves create cap space, add a back up 5 that fits style in Ilbaka, Pg depth in Dunn (behind Napier and Culver), and a young pf who checks the boxes we need to have checked.

Shred away folks.

A side note, I want no part of Lowry.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1693 » by minimus » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:27 pm

Norseman79 wrote:Hey guys, been a while. I hope all are doing well.

Two thoughts on some trades....1rst, for clarity. I do believe Culver will end up being our PG. This allows some flexibility for Mr. Teague. I also believe our biggest gap right now is the 4, which I personally think Bell will step into and run away with. So we are looking to balance the roster and find key role players.

Dieng, Okogie,and fill to Sac for Giles and Hield.

Sactown could use Dieng, and Okogie gives them something different and a nice option next to Fox. We take a flier on a young guy in Giles who hasn't been able to stay healthy and add a sniper in Hield/6th man. Other moving parts may need to be added to make salaries work out.


I had similar thoughts. After watching Culver these two games, I am with him handling the ball, if we pair him with a scoring combo guard. Some problems with passing and decision making will be motivated by strong scoring from SG spot.

Hield, LaVine type of player would be a crucial addition to our KAT centric offense. We need a rim runner, dunker who can switch in defense between C-PF-SF, but it can be a low profile athletic player like Bell or Vonleh.

Another way is to get an elite PG who can feed our mediocre shooters in good spots in order to improve overall shooting percentage. CP3 and Lowry seem to be the only possibilities on the market, but the price is too high.

As for PF spot I wish we draft and develop Siakam type of PF.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1694 » by wesleyt95 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:09 pm

minimus wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Hey guys, been a while. I hope all are doing well.

Two thoughts on some trades....1rst, for clarity. I do believe Culver will end up being our PG. This allows some flexibility for Mr. Teague. I also believe our biggest gap right now is the 4, which I personally think Bell will step into and run away with. So we are looking to balance the roster and find key role players.

Dieng, Okogie,and fill to Sac for Giles and Hield.

Sactown could use Dieng, and Okogie gives them something different and a nice option next to Fox. We take a flier on a young guy in Giles who hasn't been able to stay healthy and add a sniper in Hield/6th man. Other moving parts may need to be added to make salaries work out.


I had similar thoughts. After watching Culver these two games, I am with him handling the ball, if we pair him with a scoring combo guard. Some problems with passing and decision making will be motivated by strong scoring from SG spot.

Hield, LaVine type of player would be a crucial addition to our KAT centric offense. We need a rim runner, dunker who can switch in defense between C-PF-SF, but it can be a low profile athletic player like Bell or Vonleh.

Another way is to get an elite PG who can feed our mediocre shooters in good spots in order to improve overall shooting percentage. CP3 and Lowry seem to be the only possibilities on the market, but the price is too high.

As for PF spot I wish we draft and develop Siakam type of PF.

I want to see a Culver Wiggins backcourt, he's never had a pg that was a threat off the dribble I think it could make things easier for him... also think they could be solid defensively but Siakam on this team makes us competitive in the west
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1695 » by Loyal[]Wolf » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:15 am

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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1696 » by theGreatRC » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:35 am

Loyal[]Wolf wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yyvdof2f


Stop that
2020 Wolves will make the playoffs
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1697 » by KGdaBom » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:57 am

theGreatRC wrote:
Loyal[]Wolf wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yyvdof2f


Stop that

If I had any confidence in Wall ever being healthy I would be on that like Flies on Stink.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1698 » by wesleyt95 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:10 am

I wonder what the top 3 packages are for Covington by trade deadline
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1699 » by wesleyt95 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:31 am

Anfernee Simons & a 2020 first or Nassir Little?
Derrick White?
Sekiu Doumbaya & 2020 first?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Two) 

Post#1700 » by Domejandro » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:20 am

I get it might come across short-sighted, especially for next year's questionable free-agent class, but hear me out.

Contingent on Andre Iguodala being willing to stay with Minnesota until near the end of the year (if Minnesota is out of Playoff contention by then, Iguodala would be waived so he can jump onto a Championship contender).

MEM: Gorgui Dieng and Josh Okogie
OUT: Andre Iguodala

Why for Memphis? Move on from the Iguodala situation and get a young wing-player in Josh Okogie in exchange for taking on a year of Gorgui Dieng.

MIN: Andre Iguodala
OUT: Gorgui Dieng and Josh Okogie

Why for Minnesota? Get a stable veteran presence (on and off the court) and dump Gorgui's dead-weight salary.

Go all-in to get Otto Porter to waive his Player-Option and sign with the Minnesota Timberwolves.

(The hope would be to bring back both Shabazz Napier and Jeff Teague, which would be totally doable with Bird-Rights.)

Jeff Teague / Shabazz Napier
Andrew Wiggins / Jarrett Culver / Jaylen Nowell
Robert Covington / Jake Layman
Otto Porter / Jordan Bell (RFA) / Keita Bates-Diop
Karl-Anthony Towns / Naz Reid

+Room Mid-Level Exception (probably offered to Noah Vonleh, unless he commands more), Bi-Annual Exception, 2020 First Round and Second Round Draft Picks

So.... why Otto Porter? If you like Robert Covington, Otto Porter effectively brings that same level of elite impact.

1. Elite defensive player who can switch to defend either forward spot (imagine him with Covington).
2. Unbelievably efficiency: 2017 - 43.4% - 4.3 3PA ;; 2018 - 44.1% - 4.1 3PA ;; 2019 - 48.8% - 5.3 3PA*
3. Low foul and turnover rate.
4. Advanced stat (and just straight efficiency) darling.
5. He slots in perfectly with our best player.

*15 game sample size with Chicago. His percentage plummeted to 36.9% in Washington before getting traded because of an incredibly toxic and stagnate team situation. He finished the year at 40.6%, which is still phenomenal, but the 157 game sample size of him shooting 44% shows his actual shooting percentage.

I feel this very much follows the 2011 Dallas Maverick's Championship model in an adjusted fashion for the modern NBA.

Dirk Nowitzki ----> Karl-Anthony Towns: Pretty much every advanced stat shows that Karl-Anthony Towns' closest comparison as a player is Dirk Nowitzki. There are obvious differences (Towns is a higher volume three-point shooter and better offensive rebounder, while Dirk is better at creating space), but their ability to space the floor and defensive rebound at an elite rebound is makes this comparison basically perfect.

Shawn Marion ----> Otto Porter: Similar defensive impact stats, albeit Shawn Marion was a stronger and more portable post-defender. Shawn Marion was an abysmal shooter by the time he got to Dallas (15.2% on .4 3PA), so Otto Porter provides substantially more spacing than Marion, while still providing similar off-ball cutting ability.

Tyson Chandler ----> Robert Covington: Same impact team defensive impact, but for the modern NBA. Tyson Chandler obviously provides rim-running and rim-protection, while Robert Covington offers spacing and elite wing defense. This 100% makes sense, but let me know if I have to explain better.

Jason Terry ----> Jake Layman/Andrew Wiggins: Jason Terry was a beast during the 2011 Playoffs, but the hope would be that Andrew Wiggins and Jake Layman could provide a similar ability to score in bursts.

DeShawn Stevenson ----> Jarrett Culver: Provide strong defense and space the floor.

J.J. Barea ----> Shabazz Napier: Burst scorer off of the bench.

Brian Cardinal/Ian Mahinmi/Brendan Haywood ----> Keita Bates-Diop/Jordan Bell/Noah Vonleh (?)


There is one major, missing component though, which is Jason Kidd. Obviously Jeff Teague would provide positive impact as a fill-in, but not nearly to the extent Jason Kidd did for Dallas; he was their second most important player when winning the Championship. The hope would be that Jarrett Culver could provide a respectable level of impact, but obviously that is likely a few years away. This is a big hole, and you would have to bank on internal development to fill it. Fortunately, it is not like the team would have to "win on year one", given the timelines.

I think if the team wants to be a Championship contender, Minnesota needs to build primarily around maximizing Karl-Anthony Towns; adding a 45% three-point shooter with elite defensive switch-ability to Towns and Covington is a winning formula.
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