*** Wolves @ Celtics - Friday Night - 7:30pm CT FSN ***

[ChiefKeith91]

That’s fair. And nothing against you personally, but how many MAX players get dominated by the other teams bench? I haven’t gone through the list personally, but I do know most max players (who actually deserve to be max players) would dominate another teams bench.

This is also an indictment against the thought he’d make a good 6th man.
We really want a 6th man who leads us to a -10 point differential?

And rubio brings?

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


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[Note30]

Look I’m not a man hater. In fact I’d consider myself a lover.
Man to man I love Rubio, Ant, Towns, etc.
As far as winning basketball games I’d take Rubio over DLo. Proof is in history.
As far as wining titles neither works,AND... some around here may not like it, but Towns doesn’t seen destined for glory either.

If Towns was on a good team he would be fine. People said the same about KG (can't score enough to be a winner), Love (Doesn't play defense), They got on good teams and all the sudden that stuff didn't matter. Sure KAT isn't Lebron James or Giannis, doesn't mean he can't win, he has had trash teams and not even prime Lebron is taking this iteration of Wolves to the finals, they may bot even make the playoffs.

LOL both Love and KG went to go play with 2 other superstars.

I don't see where we are going to get ours.

Love literally played with a top player of all time in his prime. His defense was still an issue.

[Note30]

And rubio brings?

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'm sorry but +/- makes a huge difference. Dlo was at -1 at the time of the end of the 4th. Not that big of a diff compared to Rubio in value. That's where you can argue who played better in a +/- situation when it's close by 2 to 3 pts. But then the C's had a layup/shootaround line of a OT quarter.

Dlo, Jayson Tatum, and KAT all air balled 3's literally 3 back to back plays a minute later. That 3 was hard to watch but if you think it was the main issue with Rubio you are nuts.

As for the defense. Rubio is unquestionably a better defender than Dlo and JMac. Dlo comes in 2nd, JMac third. Its not that hard to be a better defender than the other two tho. Rubio definitely is playing the level of defense he was when he was on the Jazz or Suns, but he's still better than those two. I can think of 10-12 PGs that are better at defense than him.

[ChiefKeith91]

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'm sorry but +/- makes a huge difference. Dlo was at -1 at the time of the end of the 4th. Not that big of a diff compared to Rubio in value. That's where you can argue who played better in a +/- situation when it's close by 2 to 3 pts. But then the C's had a layup/shootaround line of a OT quarter.

Dlo, Jayson Tatum, and KAT all air balled 3's literally 3 back to back plays a minute later. That 3 was hard to watch but if you think it was the main issue with Rubio you are nuts.

As for the defense. Rubio is unquestionably a better defender than Dlo and JMac. Dlo comes in 2nd, JMac third. Its not that hard to be a better defender than the other two tho. Rubio definitely is playing the level of defense he was when he was on the Jazz or Suns, but he's still better than those two. I can think of 10-12 PGs that are better at defense than him.

Rubio defense rating last 3 seasons
2021- 116
2020-110
2019-105

2021- JMAC is at 115 and DLo at 117

Since you believe stats always tell the truth this would say you’re wrong about Rubio being a much better defender and playing at the level he played with a DPOY.

Rubio is not what this team needs because he doesn’t do anything above average (shooting, defending, finishing). You put replace Rubio with DLo for the last 10 minutes of the game and it wouldn’t even be close.


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[ChiefKeith91]

Rewatched the OT from the game and here is the breakdown on how we lost it

First possession was a KAT offensive foul when it was tied at 124.

Next play was a Tatum back door then KAT hit a 3pt to put us up 1 (127-126).

Kemba misses a 3 then KAT misses a stepback 3 (didn’t like this) which lead to a Jaylen 3 pt 127-129.

Next possession KAT almost loses the ball and passes to DLo with 3 secs left on shot clock and he has to shoot a contested shot from logo.

*This is where sh*t got real*

Celtics come down and run the PNR that causes rotations and Kemba hits a wing 3 (127-132).

DLo hits post shot over Kemba to make it 129-132 then Celtics run the PnR again and Ant does a bad job of closing out which leads to Kemba corner 3 (129-135). Next play is a DLo And 1 (132-135).

Next possession is the KAT foul on Tatum and hits all 3 FTs (132-138). 1:25 left and Our next possession is DLo 3 pt miss (Ball game). Celtics get a easy layup to go up 132-140.

3 most crucial plays:

-KAT offensive foul
-Kemba corner 3
-KAT fouling Tatum


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[Foye]

First 10 seconds of the game.
Wide open layup.

[Calinks]

Look I’m not a man hater. In fact I’d consider myself a lover.
Man to man I love Rubio, Ant, Towns, etc.
As far as winning basketball games I’d take Rubio over DLo. Proof is in history.
As far as wining titles neither works,AND... some around here may not like it, but Towns doesn’t seen destined for glory either.

If Towns was on a good team he would be fine. People said the same about KG (can't score enough to be a winner), Love (Doesn't play defense), They got on good teams and all the sudden that stuff didn't matter. Sure KAT isn't Lebron James or Giannis, doesn't mean he can't win, he has had trash teams and not even prime Lebron is taking this iteration of Wolves to the finals, they may bot even make the playoffs.

LOL both Love and KG went to go play with 2 other superstars.

I don't see where we are going to get ours.

Love literally played with a top player of all time in his prime. His defense was still an issue.

My point is, they had bad teams, yes they needed other superstars, so do the greatest players in the NBA. KAT's defense has been ok this season, Love was never a great defender but that hasn't stopped other players from having a lot of success. Not saying a player like KAT doesn't deserve any blame but it's not his fault the wolves aren't good and it's not that a team can't win with him, he has had terrible teams to work with.

[Note30]

If Towns was on a good team he would be fine. People said the same about KG (can't score enough to be a winner), Love (Doesn't play defense), They got on good teams and all the sudden that stuff didn't matter. Sure KAT isn't Lebron James or Giannis, doesn't mean he can't win, he has had trash teams and not even prime Lebron is taking this iteration of Wolves to the finals, they may bot even make the playoffs.

LOL both Love and KG went to go play with 2 other superstars.

I don't see where we are going to get ours.

Love literally played with a top player of all time in his prime. His defense was still an issue.

My point is, they had bad teams, yes they needed other superstars, so do the greatest players in the NBA. KAT's defense has been ok this season, Love was never a great defender but that hasn't stopped other players from having a lot of success. Not saying a player like KAT doesn't deserve any blame but it's not his fault the wolves aren't good and it's not that a team can't win with him, he has had terrible teams to work with.

True, but with his contract plus Dlo I don't see how we are going to get the other guys that can play at a high level

[Note30]

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'm sorry but +/- makes a huge difference. Dlo was at -1 at the time of the end of the 4th. Not that big of a diff compared to Rubio in value. That's where you can argue who played better in a +/- situation when it's close by 2 to 3 pts. But then the C's had a layup/shootaround line of a OT quarter.

Dlo, Jayson Tatum, and KAT all air balled 3's literally 3 back to back plays a minute later. That 3 was hard to watch but if you think it was the main issue with Rubio you are nuts.

As for the defense. Rubio is unquestionably a better defender than Dlo and JMac. Dlo comes in 2nd, JMac third. Its not that hard to be a better defender than the other two tho. Rubio definitely is playing the level of defense he was when he was on the Jazz or Suns, but he's still better than those two. I can think of 10-12 PGs that are better at defense than him.

Rubio defense rating last 3 seasons
2021- 116
2020-110
2019-105

2021- JMAC is at 115 and DLo at 117

Since you believe stats always tell the truth this would say you’re wrong about Rubio being a much better defender and playing at the level he played with a DPOY.

Rubio is not what this team needs because he doesn’t do anything above average (shooting, defending, finishing). You put replace Rubio with DLo for the last 10 minutes of the game and it wouldn’t even be close.


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2021 - Rubio is at 115.3, JMac is at 115.6, and DLo is at 117.4
The team as a whole is at 115.2 as well.

So yeah he is better even if its slightly. I'm honestly a little surprised at the numbers.

Who said not playing DLo was the ideal situation? He can definitely play the 2.

Rubio - Dlo - Edwards - McDaniels - Towns, is probably our best lineup.

But even despite that if you want to play the stats game? Its going to be a wash.

W/S - Rubio wins by more than a factor of 2.1 (offensive and defensive as well)
VORP - Dlo and Rubio are within less than a point of each other. With Dlo in the lead at 0.385 and Rubio at -0.164, keep in mind the average plus minus is usually more than 1-2 poinst between a bench player and a starter.

Rubio wins AST AND STL%
Dlo wins TS%(by 4%) AND TOV%

DLO also has a sky high usage rate of 30.1% vs Rubios 16%

So yeah even in stats its a wash the two players are very close.

I'm not saying stats are the only thing that's important, but if you think Dlo is the answer to this team you are mistaken.

Rubio isn't anything more than an average PG in the NBA, but Dlo and his 30M price tag aren't too far off.

[Calinks]

LOL both Love and KG went to go play with 2 other superstars.

I don't see where we are going to get ours.

Love literally played with a top player of all time in his prime. His defense was still an issue.

My point is, they had bad teams, yes they needed other superstars, so do the greatest players in the NBA. KAT's defense has been ok this season, Love was never a great defender but that hasn't stopped other players from having a lot of success. Not saying a player like KAT doesn't deserve any blame but it's not his fault the wolves aren't good and it's not that a team can't win with him, he has had terrible teams to work with.

True, but with his contract plus Dlo I don't see how we are going to get the other guys that can play at a high level

It's a dilemma but there are still outs. First, we need to walk before we can run so I'm, not worried about getting a title-contending team, I just want a playoff team first. That's possible with some roster changes. Then KAT and DLO are still young enough to improve, Ant could grow exponentially, if Finch puts together a system that plays to our strengths the value these guys bring could go way up. From there, if we have a clear identity and are a good team, life will get easier when it comes to attracting talent. Players can get moved, players can develop, we can build a path but we have to start becoming a solid team first.

[Sugarless]

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'm sorry but +/- makes a huge difference. Dlo was at -1 at the time of the end of the 4th. Not that big of a diff compared to Rubio in value. That's where you can argue who played better in a +/- situation when it's close by 2 to 3 pts. But then the C's had a layup/shootaround line of a OT quarter.

Dlo, Jayson Tatum, and KAT all air balled 3's literally 3 back to back plays a minute later. That 3 was hard to watch but if you think it was the main issue with Rubio you are nuts.

As for the defense. Rubio is unquestionably a better defender than Dlo and JMac. Dlo comes in 2nd, JMac third. Its not that hard to be a better defender than the other two tho. Rubio definitely is playing the level of defense he was when he was on the Jazz or Suns, but he's still better than those two. I can think of 10-12 PGs that are better at defense than him.

Rubio defense rating last 3 seasons
2021- 116
2020-110
2019-105

2021- JMAC is at 115 and DLo at 117

Since you believe stats always tell the truth this would say you’re wrong about Rubio being a much better defender and playing at the level he played with a DPOY.

Rubio is not what this team needs because he doesn’t do anything above average (shooting, defending, finishing). You put replace Rubio with DLo for the last 10 minutes of the game and it wouldn’t even be close.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Dude, what the hell, you never use DRTG for individual players. That's bb stats 101.

You want a reliable defensive stat? Try multiyear DRAPM.

For the 2015-20 period his DRAPM was 1.85, good enough for 31st in the league among all NBA players, 4th among starting PGs along with Lowry, Paul and Holiday (the 4 years before that his DRAPM was higher yet, as was his ranking in the league). That's despite posting a -0.22 with the defensively god-awful 2016-17 Timberwolves.

This year he's got a similar -0.2 with this atrocity of a team.

Seriously, the things you read on this board after so many years...

[Sugarless]

2020-21 Minnesota Timberwolves: 4th worst defense in the league. 3rd in points allowed.

RealGM Timberwolves fans:

[Note30]

I'm sorry but +/- makes a huge difference. Dlo was at -1 at the time of the end of the 4th. Not that big of a diff compared to Rubio in value. That's where you can argue who played better in a +/- situation when it's close by 2 to 3 pts. But then the C's had a layup/shootaround line of a OT quarter.

Dlo, Jayson Tatum, and KAT all air balled 3's literally 3 back to back plays a minute later. That 3 was hard to watch but if you think it was the main issue with Rubio you are nuts.

As for the defense. Rubio is unquestionably a better defender than Dlo and JMac. Dlo comes in 2nd, JMac third. Its not that hard to be a better defender than the other two tho. Rubio definitely is playing the level of defense he was when he was on the Jazz or Suns, but he's still better than those two. I can think of 10-12 PGs that are better at defense than him.

Rubio defense rating last 3 seasons
2021- 116
2020-110
2019-105

2021- JMAC is at 115 and DLo at 117

Since you believe stats always tell the truth this would say you’re wrong about Rubio being a much better defender and playing at the level he played with a DPOY.

Rubio is not what this team needs because he doesn’t do anything above average (shooting, defending, finishing). You put replace Rubio with DLo for the last 10 minutes of the game and it wouldn’t even be close.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Dude, what the hell, you never use DRTG for individual players. That's bb stats 101.

You want a reliable defensive stat? Try multiyear DRAPM.

For the 2015-20 period his DRAPM was 1.85, good enough for 31st in the league among all NBA players, 4th among starting PGs along with Lowry, Paul and Holiday (the 4 years before that his DRAPM was higher yet, as was his ranking in the league). That's despite posting a -0.22 with the defensively god-awful 2016-17 Timberwolves.

This year he's got a similar -0.2 with this atrocity of a team.

Seriously, the things you read on this board after so many years...

Thanks - I didn't know that

[LesGrossman]

And rubio brings?

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Lets just say we might have different understanding of what good defense looks like. No point going over details i guess.

[LesGrossman]

Rubio defense rating last 3 seasons
2021- 116
2020-110
2019-105

2021- JMAC is at 115 and DLo at 117

Since you believe stats always tell the truth this would say you’re wrong about Rubio being a much better defender and playing at the level he played with a DPOY.

Rubio is not what this team needs because he doesn’t do anything above average (shooting, defending, finishing). You put replace Rubio with DLo for the last 10 minutes of the game and it wouldn’t even be close.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Dude, what the hell, you never use DRTG for individual players. That's bb stats 101.

You want a reliable defensive stat? Try multiyear DRAPM.

For the 2015-20 period his DRAPM was 1.85, good enough for 31st in the league among all NBA players, 4th among starting PGs along with Lowry, Paul and Holiday (the 4 years before that his DRAPM was higher yet, as was his ranking in the league). That's despite posting a -0.22 with the defensively god-awful 2016-17 Timberwolves.

This year he's got a similar -0.2 with this atrocity of a team.

Seriously, the things you read on this board after so many years...

The flood of casuals and highlight reel experts never dries out, that much is certain.

[Nick K]

And rubio brings?

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Yep. Ricky is an above average team defender. On the man he's a matador. They blow by him like he's standing still. I love Ricky's heart but at this point he's a 6 million $ backup PG. I still want to see Ricky and Beasley off the bench.

[LesGrossman]

Rubio was the only + player among the starters. Finch benched hiim like THibs did. They need a few games to understand hwo poor a decision that was. Rubio shot poorly again (1-5) but missed a grand total of four shots so actually no drama. Theres plenty of offense on this team. Aside from that he played great defense, 4 Steals resulting in Okogie fastbreaks, 7 assists (0 Turnovers), 4 rebounds. But i guess you'll need a bit more time to understand what this team needs, and what it takes to win games, not end up with great numbers in a losing effort.

Another person looking at the +/- and thinking that holds priority over actual game play. He was +1 (that last 3pt should’ve took him to -25 lol) and DLo -10 but tell me who was responsible for our comeback with shots, assist and FT’s.

Someone mentioned Rubio plays the best defense out of our backcourt, those games must come in another channel than the league pass I have cause I don’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Yep. Ricky is an above average team defender. On the man he's a matador. They blow by him like he's standing still. I love Ricky's heart but at this point he's a 6 million $ backup PG. I still want to see Ricky and Beasley off the bench.

I know what you are talking aboout but i think its part of the defensive concept to 1. drive guys off the 3pt line and 2. funnel them into the help. In situations where they clearly communicate "iso" or "on your own" (thankfully we can hear that these days) he easily stays in front of his guy but allows a bit more space for the 3pt shot.

But its true his greatest strength is the swarming help defense. It cant be measured in numbers how often he just quickly shows up in a driving or passing lane disrupting wht the other team wants to do. Deflections, charges drawn etc.. Casuals often miss how many extra posessions he generates besides steals and offensive rebounds. Posessions he smartly gives to better shooters. All of that disappears when he goes to the bench, the only "simple" stat that expresses this aspect of his game is +/-. By itself it can be misleading and wrong, but in context it makes a lot of sense to look at it when talking abotu Rubio.

[Sugarless]

LOL at Rubio being a bad man defender.

Watch on YouTube

It's so clear when people don't watch basketball beyond their team. Guards blow past their defenders all the time in the NBA. Offensive schemes are built around that, on and off ball screens are set constantly to get them space. Defenders are not allowed to have any type of contact with the ballhandler, and pro players are quick as hell (yeah, Rubio also blows by defenders often, and he's definitely not the most explosive guy out there). That's the NBA in this era.

PS: Rubio still has the best DFG% among guards on this team. Also better than Jrue Holiday's (who has way more help around him), Chris Paul's, Kyle Lowry's and Patrick Beverley's, to name a few.