Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[TwolvesFanRome]

According to me, after that punch, we have to talk about a Gobert destination for the summer...I believe it was "the drop that made the water come out of the vase" and there will be no remedy.

[TimberKat]

According to me, after that punch, we have to talk about a Gobert destination for the summer...I believe it was "the drop that made the water come out of the vase" and there will be no remedy.

Buy high sell low? This could turn out worse than Joe Smith. They need to patch things up. Drive up Towns, Gobert, and Slowmo's value then decide what to do.

[shrink]

I tend to think people that didn’t like Rudy before are kind of using this as an excuse to trade him. If swinging at a teammate is a good enough reason to trade a guy, then I suppose people wanted to trade KG over punches at Rick Rickert or Wally? Or was he just showing his competitiveness?

Krawcinski: “Do you think this is something you and Rudy can get past?”

SloMo: “Oh yeah! It is what it is. We want to win games, it is what it is. It ain’t the first time someone has swung on me!”

SloMo: I think tempers just flared. It is what it is. We’re grown men.

[Neeva]

Just more overeacting like Draymond Green punch earlier.

[KJauger]

Trade both Towns and Gobert. They aint it.

[GopherIt!]

If I ran the Nets, I would not give up assets for a star like Towns; I would hope to clear cap space and hope stars want to come play in BRK as a free agent destination. If they use a few of those assets they got by trading Kyrie and Durant to move Ben Simmons final season, they would clear enough cap space to let two stars come together there in free agency - and keep all their trade assets.

People often say, “Poor Nets” when Kyrie and KD wanted to move on, but remember - they got these guys for CAP SPACE. No chance MIN would get a return like the following for their cap space.

The Nets may have missed a chance at a ring, but they already won when Durant and Kyrie chose to join their team.

Here’s the advantage of being a free agent destination - a return 25 NBA teams could never dream of for their cap space.

Believe me, they won't. I don't even consider KAT tradable until the price is lowered. Mikal Bridges been looking great for Brooklyn and he's extremely reliable. They would love to add KAT but for Claxton and draft picks, not Bridges. I don't believe anyone would be interested in trading their key franchise players for KAT. They would want to add to their key players with KAT. Not remove them for KAT. I heard someone mention Toronto. Maybe something could be done for KAT using OG but zero chance they move Barnes. Adding KAT is to help Barnes

If you want a star in return, you gotta trade Ant. Teams will be willing to trade a star for Ant.

Without getting into a big debate, I think you are severely undervaluing Kat my friend. He’s a true #1 option on offense. I like SloMo next to him at 4. Hopefully we see that more. He’s making $36M next year and then the cap jumps again.

The only trade that makes sense is for a player of similar value or a high upside player. Not breaking Kat down into nickles, dimes and quarters. Trading Ant would be absurdly stupid. That would make David Kahn look like a genius.

Mikal is also getting overrated on the forum. Is he a 1b or #2 on a finals team? Idk. I don’t think the Suns move him if he had that upside.

[Rapaz]

Without getting into a big debate, I think you are severely undervaluing Kat my friend. He’s a true #1 option on offense. I like SloMo next to him at 4. Hopefully we see that more. He’s making $36M next year and then the cap jumps again.

The only trade that makes sense is for a player of similar value or a high upside player. Not breaking Kat down into nickles, dimes and quarters. That’s a non-starter.

Agreed. Rumor is Pat Riley is ready to GopherIt and will make Lowry and Duncan Robinson available in a trade for KAT. Brooklyn would need to add Bridges to compete with that offer.

[GopherIt!]

Without getting into a big debate, I think you are severely undervaluing Kat my friend. He’s a true #1 option on offense. I like SloMo next to him at 4. Hopefully we see that more. He’s making $36M next year and then the cap jumps again.

The only trade that makes sense is for a player of similar value or a high upside player. Not breaking Kat down into nickles, dimes and quarters. That’s a non-starter.

Agreed. Rumor is Pat Riley is ready to GopherIt and will make Lowry and Duncan Robinson available in a trade for KAT. Brooklyn would need to add Bridges to compete with that offer.

Hi buddy!

[King Ken]

If I ran the Nets, I would not give up assets for a star like Towns; I would hope to clear cap space and hope stars want to come play in BRK as a free agent destination. If they use a few of those assets they got by trading Kyrie and Durant to move Ben Simmons final season, they would clear enough cap space to let two stars come together there in free agency - and keep all their trade assets.

People often say, “Poor Nets” when Kyrie and KD wanted to move on, but remember - they got these guys for CAP SPACE. No chance MIN would get a return like the following for their cap space.

Believe me, they won't. I don't even consider KAT tradable until the price is lowered. Mikal Bridges been looking great for Brooklyn and he's extremely reliable. They would love to add KAT but for Claxton and draft picks, not Bridges. I don't believe anyone would be interested in trading their key franchise players for KAT. They would want to add to their key players with KAT. Not remove them for KAT. I heard someone mention Toronto. Maybe something could be done for KAT using OG but zero chance they move Barnes. Adding KAT is to help Barnes

If you want a star in return, you gotta trade Ant. Teams will be willing to trade a star for Ant.

Without getting into a big debate, I think you are severely undervaluing Kat my friend. He’s a true #1 option on offense. I like SloMo next to him at 4. Hopefully we see that more. He’s making $36M next year and then the cap jumps again.

The only trade that makes sense is for a player of similar value or a high upside player. Not breaking Kat down into nickles, dimes and quarters. Trading Ant would be absurdly stupid. That would make David Kahn look like a genius.

Mikal is also getting overrated on the forum. Is he a 1b or #2 on a finals team? Idk. I don’t think the Suns move him if he had that upside.

I have zero belief you can get a better prospect than modern KAT for KAT. Whereas, I believe you can get a clearly better player for Bridges, Barnes, or Mobley than they are right now. A legit older superstar.

KAT just got too many issues and his value isn't high enough. Doesn't really impact winning and his best role is to complement someone who's already the superstar or at least the engine.

I'll be honest with you. There is zero chance you will trade KAT for the value you covet and yes, I do believe in KAT. Just not in regards to his trade value. His supermax is starting after next year. That's a significant amount of money and the new CBA basically has a hard cap no teams really want to touch. That's gonna make getting max value difficult and lower the mid tier market trade value as well as teams will be really on top of how they spend on mid tier players.

The NBA is gonna change in a couple of years. Idk know if KAT is worth that. I know he's not worth that for MIN but he could be for others if put in a better personnel fit. That said, I don't see it.

If you guys go to Toronto, Brooklyn, or Cleveland and bring up KAT, they would all be interested. Willing to offer Siakam, Allen, or Claxton but hardly any will be interested in offering Barnes, Bridges, or Mobley. If you want one of those guys, Ant is your best option by far to get one of them.

[younggunsmn]

Just more overeacting like Draymond Green punch earlier.

Draymond Green could have ended a life with his punch.
Not even comparable.

Gobert got called a B-Word because he was yapping back after getting called out for making mistakes.
Then he took a swing. Not the actions of a good teammate or a 10-year vet.
He has made a lot of glaring mistakes and really dumb plays this year, on both ends, and they just seem to keep happening.

I care a lot more about having Rocks for Brains than I do stats like winshares.
If you've got Rocks for brains and Rocks for hands I guess that's worth 5 1sts and a swap as long as your winshares are high.

[younggunsmn]

I think the likelihood of getting fair value for KAT or even 1/2 of what we paid to get Rudy is pretty low.
And we will be absolutely financially crippled by 24/25 if we don't trade one of them. KAT+Rudy=100 mil then plus extensions for Ant and Jaden. We may be in the lux already with just 4 players.

Trading Rudy and getting 2 or 3 good piayers on neutral to negative contracts like a Collins/Capela type deal might be the best we can do and this offseason is going to be important, because it may be the last opportunity we get to cut bait on his contract.
There may still be suitors out there, Toronto, Chicago maybe. We are just going to have to be realistic in what we will be able to bring back.

If we move Rudy, we are going to have to change our scheme to fit KAT, but then hopefully we re-sign Naz too and can run the same scheme with both of them. If only we had a young cheap rim protector on a rookie contract, THAT would be perfect....

[GopherIt!]

KAT just got too many issues and his value isn't high enough. Doesn't really impact winning and his best role is to complement someone who's already the superstar or at least the engine.

I'll be honest with you. There is zero chance you will trade KAT for the value you covet and yes, I do believe in KAT. Just not in regards to his trade value. His supermax is starting after next year. That's a significant amount of money and the new CBA basically has a hard cap no teams really want to touch. That's gonna make getting max value difficult and lower the mid tier market trade value as well as teams will be really on top of how they spend on mid tier players.

The NBA is gonna change in a couple of years. Idk know if KAT is worth that. I know he's not worth that for MIN but he could be for others if put in a better personnel fit. That said, I don't see it.

If you guys go to Toronto, Brooklyn, or Cleveland and bring up KAT, they would all be interested. Willing to offer Siakam, Allen, or Claxton but hardly any will be interested in offering Barnes, Bridges, or Mobley. If you want one of those guys, Ant is your best option by far to get one of them.

Kat just closed out the regular season w 30pts on 10/19 shooting in a must win game. He was huge. When he and Ant are on they are virtually an unstoppable duo on offense. I like SloMo and eventually a beefier Jaden at the 4 next to Kat long term. I would trade Rudy and do the following:

Add a younger PG (MN native Tyus Jones is an FA in 2024)
Add a 6th man shooter off the bench
Add a Nik Claxton type back up C

This team is not far away. Do those 3 things and this team will be good for a while.

In short, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[younggunsmn]

I tend to think people that didn’t like Rudy before are kind of using this as an excuse to trade him. If swinging at a teammate is a good enough reason to trade a guy, then I suppose people wanted to trade KG over punches at Rick Rickert or Wally? Or was he just showing his competitiveness?

Krawcinski: “Do you think this is something you and Rudy can get past?”

SloMo: “Oh yeah! It is what it is. We want to win games, it is what it is. It ain’t the first time someone has swung on me!”

SloMo: I think tempers just flared. It is what it is. We’re grown men.

I hate to break it to you but Gobert isn't even in the same building as KG much less on the same floor as far as this franchise is concerned. And neither of those punches happened in public during a game.

It's a peek behind the curtain into how things are really going behind the scenes when your respected veteran high bbiq glue guy gets punched right out in the open in front of everyone.
Just like we got a peek into how much everyone loves Naz Reid from the post game banter from Jaden and Ant earlier in the year.

Of course Slo-Mo is going to say the right thing after the game.

The on court chemistry has been WAY OFF this year and EVERYONE has had to make adjustments to how they play to accomodate Gobert's strengths and weaknesses and what we saw play out today is no doubt the result of a lot of that friction.
Gobert just needs to be BETTER. Period.
This franchise has made too much of an investment in him for him to fail this hard.
Maybe if he had someone call him out in Utah the way Slo-Mo did they would have won a few more playoff series while he was there.

[King Ken]

I think the likelihood of getting fair value for KAT or even 1/2 of what we paid to get Rudy is pretty low.
And we will be absolutely financially crippled by 24/25 if we don't trade one of them. KAT+Rudy=100 mil then plus extensions for Ant and Jaden. We may be in the lux already with just 4 players.

Trading Rudy and getting 2 or 3 good piayers on neutral to negative contracts like a Collins/Capela type deal might be the best we can do and this offseason is going to be important, because it may be the last opportunity we get to cut bait on his contract.
There may still be suitors out there, Toronto, Chicago maybe. We are just going to have to be realistic in what we will be able to bring back.

If we move Rudy, we are going to have to change our scheme to fit KAT, but then hopefully we re-sign Naz too and can run the same scheme with both of them. If only we had a young cheap rim protector on a rookie contract, THAT would be perfect....

Capela is clearly not a negative contract and there is demand for him across the league if we decided to trade him and even then, many within would rather keep him and Okongwu for at least the next couple of years unless we get an offer we can't refuse.

JC is clearly a negative contract but the gap between his deal and Gobert is far to massive to make up the gap. Like Gobert for ya'll, I don't know how we will trade JC. His contract just ain't worth the price of admission for his current level of production and even in the right situation, I am not sure his current salary is just. If Gobert was making the same amount as JC, I would clearly be open to the trade even with today's punch.

[younggunsmn]

I think the likelihood of getting fair value for KAT or even 1/2 of what we paid to get Rudy is pretty low.
And we will be absolutely financially crippled by 24/25 if we don't trade one of them. KAT+Rudy=100 mil then plus extensions for Ant and Jaden. We may be in the lux already with just 4 players.

Trading Rudy and getting 2 or 3 good piayers on neutral to negative contracts like a Collins/Capela type deal might be the best we can do and this offseason is going to be important, because it may be the last opportunity we get to cut bait on his contract.
There may still be suitors out there, Toronto, Chicago maybe. We are just going to have to be realistic in what we will be able to bring back.

If we move Rudy, we are going to have to change our scheme to fit KAT, but then hopefully we re-sign Naz too and can run the same scheme with both of them. If only we had a young cheap rim protector on a rookie contract, THAT would be perfect....

Capela is clearly not a negative contract and there is demand for him across the league if we decided to trade him and even then, many within would rather keep him and Okongwu for at least the next couple of years unless we get an offer we can't refuse.

JC is clearly a negative contract but the gap between his deal and Gobert is far to massive to make up the gap. Like Gobert for ya'll, I don't know how we will trade JC. His contract just ain't worth the price of admission for his current level of production and even in the right situation, I am not sure his current salary is just. If Gobert was making the same amount as JC, I would clearly be open to the trade even with today's punch.

I only watched the two Hawks games against the Wolves this year, but from what I saw you should jettison Capela and build around Okongwu, your defense was 10X better when he was out there and he was a beast on the offensive boards. Plus he can make free throws. I was just using those 2 players as an example of the kind of 2 or 3 for one that would possibly help both teams from a basketball perspective.
I agree that Gobert's contract is going to scare away some teams, as it should have scared away us.

I don't know what happened to Collins, he was a really good efficient player at one point and he's added a reliable 3 point shot since then.
Is his defense just that bad? Would he be better on a team with solid perimeter defenders instead of a team that had to hide Trae Young? We know what that's like from our 3 years of D-Lo.

[King Ken]

KAT just got too many issues and his value isn't high enough. Doesn't really impact winning and his best role is to complement someone who's already the superstar or at least the engine.

I'll be honest with you. There is zero chance you will trade KAT for the value you covet and yes, I do believe in KAT. Just not in regards to his trade value. His supermax is starting after next year. That's a significant amount of money and the new CBA basically has a hard cap no teams really want to touch. That's gonna make getting max value difficult and lower the mid tier market trade value as well as teams will be really on top of how they spend on mid tier players.

The NBA is gonna change in a couple of years. Idk know if KAT is worth that. I know he's not worth that for MIN but he could be for others if put in a better personnel fit. That said, I don't see it.

If you guys go to Toronto, Brooklyn, or Cleveland and bring up KAT, they would all be interested. Willing to offer Siakam, Allen, or Claxton but hardly any will be interested in offering Barnes, Bridges, or Mobley. If you want one of those guys, Ant is your best option by far to get one of them.

Kat just closed out the regular season w 30pts on 10/19 shooting in a must win game. He was huge. When he and Ant are on they are virtually an unstoppable duo on offense. I like SloMo and eventually a beefier Jaden at the 4 next to Kat long term. I would trade Rudy and do the following:

Add a younger PG (MN native Tyus Jones is an FA in 2024)
Add a 6th man shooter off the bench
Add a Nik Claxton type back up C

This team is not far away. Do those 3 things and this team will be good for a while.

In short, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

And what you are asking for a two studs on the 2nd year of their rookie deal and a two way star on an elite 2nd contract in Bridges that they traded Durant who's a top 5 player to get.

I don't believe it's anywhere near as easy as you think it is.

You don't have no money once Ant gets his rookie supermax if he gets it and even if he doesn't, you don't have no money so getting Jones is impossible if not unrealistic.

There is no Nic Claxton types in the NBA outside of Claxton and he's getting paid in his next deal handsomely.

I can see you losing a lot more talent than gaining talent just due to the insane salaries.

[King Ken]

I think the likelihood of getting fair value for KAT or even 1/2 of what we paid to get Rudy is pretty low.
And we will be absolutely financially crippled by 24/25 if we don't trade one of them. KAT+Rudy=100 mil then plus extensions for Ant and Jaden. We may be in the lux already with just 4 players.

Trading Rudy and getting 2 or 3 good piayers on neutral to negative contracts like a Collins/Capela type deal might be the best we can do and this offseason is going to be important, because it may be the last opportunity we get to cut bait on his contract.
There may still be suitors out there, Toronto, Chicago maybe. We are just going to have to be realistic in what we will be able to bring back.

If we move Rudy, we are going to have to change our scheme to fit KAT, but then hopefully we re-sign Naz too and can run the same scheme with both of them. If only we had a young cheap rim protector on a rookie contract, THAT would be perfect....

Capela is clearly not a negative contract and there is demand for him across the league if we decided to trade him and even then, many within would rather keep him and Okongwu for at least the next couple of years unless we get an offer we can't refuse.

JC is clearly a negative contract but the gap between his deal and Gobert is far to massive to make up the gap. Like Gobert for ya'll, I don't know how we will trade JC. His contract just ain't worth the price of admission for his current level of production and even in the right situation, I am not sure his current salary is just. If Gobert was making the same amount as JC, I would clearly be open to the trade even with today's punch.

I only watched the two Hawks games against the Wolves this year, but from what I saw you should jettison Capela and build around Okongwu, your defense was 10X better when he was out there and he was a beast on the offensive boards. Plus he can make free throws. I was just using those 2 players as an example of the kind of 2 or 3 for one that would possibly help both teams from a basketball perspective.
I agree that Gobert's contract is going to scare away some teams, as it should have scared away us.

I don't know what happened to Collins, he was a really good efficient player at one point and he's added a reliable 3 point shot since then.
Is his defense just that bad? Would he be better on a team with solid perimeter defenders instead of a team that had to hide Trae Young? We know what that's like from our 3 years of D-Lo.

Well bro, I watched all of them. We even get fans from Dallas asking us if they land 10th overall, would we be willing to take it for Capela. That's just them, you got interested Rocket fans if they reland Harden. You got fans from other teams as well and that's just play world. In real life, you had a number of teams reach out about Clint but Atlanta declined their offers as they still need Clint.

Clint either has our top WAR or 2nd highest WAR and his contract is a good deal for his productivity. OO is also extremely productive and gives us the best center tandem in the NBA. Why would we want to give that up for Gobert who's making 40+ million? We wouldn't especially considering the salary cap and Okongwu extention that's coming this offseason.

So Okongwu can be all that and a bag of chips and he is but we aren't trading Capela unless we have to.

JC is a different story. It's his time.

JC defense is generally a plus. It is his offense. He's an elite movement specialist but there really isn't really any space in our starting lineup. We have three non passers. No real shooters in the starting 5 and it forces JC in tough positions offensively to get a rhythm. We were playing through him early on before LP was fired. Once Nate took over, we been seeing the decline in full speed. He's still a very good offensive player but you gotta run a ball or player movement based offense and there are only so many in the NBA. His issue his defensive versatility. That's his biggest issue and why its a tough buy for everyone in the NBA.

[GopherIt!]

And what you are asking for a two studs on the 2nd year of their rookie deal and a two way star on an elite 2nd contract in Bridges that they traded Durant who's a top 5 player to get.

I don't believe it's anywhere near as easy as you think it is.

You don't have no money once Ant gets his rookie supermax if he gets it and even if he doesn't, you don't have no money so getting Jones is impossible if not unrealistic.

There is no Nic Claxton types in the NBA outside of Claxton and he's getting paid in his next deal handsomely.

I can see you losing a lot more talent than gaining talent just due to the insane salaries.

What the heck Ken? smh

You are confused. I didn’t say anything about the Nets in my post. What I did say is that I am not in the ‘we must trade Kat’ camp. I can see a path forward w him on the roster.

Claxton was a high end example. At a minimum, they need an energy big off the bench who can block shots.

As Klomp already pointed out, Conley’s expiring could be used in a S/T for Jones. If they move Rudy for smaller/cheaper pieces I think they can figure out something.

[younggunsmn]

I can see why Gobert's salary wouldn't be a fit for you, you will be in as bad of a position as us in '24-'25 with Murray and Okongwu to re-sign too.

Not a fan of advanced stats for Rim-Running bigs, a big part of the reason Gobert is so overrated.
Capela hasn't really helped the defense, I would be tempted to take a good pick plus a productive expiring if I had a good backup plan at the position like you do, with the future salary crunch and the foot injury history.

Thanks for the insight on Collins, he was a bit of a talker here the past couple offseasons when we were looking to put a PF next to KAT.
So you're saying he really isnt a switchable defender.
What kind of asset would you give to move his contract, if we were to take it to move KAT/Gobert onto a 3rd team and send you an unproductive expiring?

[King Ken]

And what you are asking for a two studs on the 2nd year of their rookie deal and a two way star on an elite 2nd contract in Bridges that they traded Durant who's a top 5 player to get.

I don't believe it's anywhere near as easy as you think it is.

You don't have no money once Ant gets his rookie supermax if he gets it and even if he doesn't, you don't have no money so getting Jones is impossible if not unrealistic.

There is no Nic Claxton types in the NBA outside of Claxton and he's getting paid in his next deal handsomely.

I can see you losing a lot more talent than gaining talent just due to the insane salaries.

What the heck Ken? smh

You are confused. I didn’t say anything about the Nets in my post. What I did say is that I am not in the ‘we must trade Kat’ camp. I can see a path forward w him on the roster.

Claxton was a high end example. At a minimum, they need an energy big off the bench who can block shots.

As Klomp already pointed out, Conley’s expiring could be used in a S/T for Jones. If they move Rudy for smaller/cheaper pieces I think they can figure out something.

Here's the deal.

The new CBA is penalizing any team spending 17 million over the LT. I don't believe MIN will have issues with that next year even though the new CBA is not into effect yet but when Jaden and Ant get paid and you have KAT supermax starting, it will be next to impossible to avoid it. You realize once you are over 17 million. You can't trade, you can't sign anyone beyond the min, you can't do jack. Basically, it's a hard cap which we currently don't have today.

So now that we have that out the way, let's address your post.

You previously said I am undervaluing KAT. I am not. I see his value. That said, I also see his trade value. I don't believe it's nowhere near as high as you are picturing it to be.

I do see a path forward with him but I don't believe it is economically sound and the reward is not there. In fact, moving forward without him has a higher reward without the economic pitfall as he's under a supermax starting in 2024.

Claxton is far more than an energy big off the bench who can block shots. He's one of the best at rotations, deflections, switching, and finishing on offense in the NBA. If you can find half of that as a backup 5, you drafted it and got lucky. Most backup 5s are useless in the grand scheme or one-dimensional. In fact, many teams are coveting your backup 5, Naz Reid. A lot of teams are. He's a hot commodity and a player who will likely get the bag from someone looking for a top tier backup 5. The Nets been killing the draft at the 5. He and Allen were steals.

Why the hell would Memphis do that? Come on, that's not realistic. Tyus is one of the best backup PGs in the league and without Ja, he's shown some qualities we saw from Jalen Brunson in Dallas. He's gonna get the bag in his next deal. If Memphis trades him, they will want something highly valuable like a top 10-20 draft pick. Not Mike Conley. Someone they can sign for peanuts in 2024.

The issue is 2023-24. It's 2024 and beyond plus the new CBA.