2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread

[Note30]

It is interesting to me, a healthy Wolves team doesn’t beat the Nuggets, but a healthy Wolves team could have beat the Lakers in the play in game and made a run to the WCF.
I don’t know if that means anything about bringing this team back, but it definitely would have changed the feeling going into the offseason.

You'd hope right?

[life_saver]

We really should have beaten Lakers in that play-in game....what a meltdown that was in 4th Qtr.

[urinesane]

We really should have beaten Lakers in that play-in game....what a meltdown that was in 4th Qtr.

Quit living in the past maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

[Calinks]

What I have seen in the playoffs tells me that's its not a talent issue, more like a fit, and knowledge issue that we have. I don't think any of these teams look so good they are unbeatable. All season I felt like we could beat the Lakers. The problem is, we just mentally are so weak.

Consistency is also a big deal. We have made so many changes and guys this season are in and out of the lineup, we have no identity and don't know how to play.

If Towns was more poised and didn't mentally breakdown so much if our guys had a style of play that they were accustomed to. and stayed in their roles, I think we could have done much better.

I think we maybe need to make one more big trade and stick with a plan. Maybe that plan is going to be, run it back, if it is I think we need to give it a better effort. People have to be in camp, Gobert can't go play for France. Towns needs to be sat down and a new specific role needs to be carved out.

We need a consistent, plan, and we need to get in drilled in early.

[TimberKat]

What I have seen in the playoffs tells me that's its not a talent issue, more like a fit, and knowledge issue that we have. I don't think any of these teams look so good they are unbeatable. All season I felt like we could beat the Lakers. The problem is, we just mentally are so weak.

Consistency is also a big deal. We have made so many changes and guys this season are in and out of the lineup, we have no identity and don't know how to play.

If Towns was more poised and didn't mentally breakdown so much if our guys had a style of play that they were accustomed to. and stayed in their roles, I think we could have done much better.

I think we maybe need to make one more big trade and stick with a plan. Maybe that plan is going to be, run it back, if it is I think we need to give it a better effort. People have to be in camp, Gobert can't go play for France. Towns needs to be sat down and a new specific role needs to be carved out.

We need a consistent, plan, and we need to get in drilled in early.

Yes, we were consistently inconsistent. I was surprised by how bad they play together coming out of training camp. Finch was saying the right things, but for whatever reason, never translated to on court execution. Finally got some stability, then Naz broke his hand, then JMac broke his. A summer of stability, watch films, and make some commitments on the approach would go a long way. However, I will never turn down a good trading-up trade. If we could get DeRozan without giving up the core, I would go for it. Towns for DeRozan + William = NO.

[TimberKat]

Bam no question could. Absolutely and unequivocally the most underrated big man in the game.

Lopez was already a candidate for DPOY this year, no idea what you're on about. https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-april-2023-edition

You have a very limited view of the game. Do better.

I hope you actually watch Bucks games and see how Speedy Gonzales chase down players. You maybe the only person in the previous 14 years to have the foresight that Lopez is remotely in the conversation of DPOY or All-defensive first team. No one would confuse Lopez’s defensive prowess with Gobert’s ability.

Just exactly what do you think Utah did in their system to showcase Gobert’s defensive ability that Lopez would be just as good? How is that system better than having Giannis, Bledsoe or Holiday on your team? Keep in mind you just said rebounding is not equal to defense.

I'm not the only one genius. Brook Lopez was the runner-up in the voting for the NBA 2022-23 Defensive Player of the Year on Monday. 31 first place votes. I have no idea what you are smoking. There's tons of evidence he's playing above and beyond. He has the right system around him as did Gobert. I actually did watch Bucks games this year and it was apparent why.

Well for one, outside of Gobert the Jazz switched everything. As do the Bucks. In fact the one thing the Jazz couldn't do was adapt to a 5-out offense because they relied way too much on his drop coverage.

Gobert looks amazing in pure drop coverage on anything but a 5-out offense full of shooters. So does Brook, so does Carter Jr. Only problem is the Wolves can't switch everything in drop coverage for Gobert. Thats why he looks lost.

I know what the voting was this year. I am talking about the previous 14 years that Lopez played in the league. He was never in the conversation for DPOY. He only won NBA defensive team second team selection once before this year with Giannis and Bledsoe on the team. So, let's assume both Gobert and Lopez got system support like you said. Gobert wins a bunch of awards and Lopez just got one runner up, maybe 1 defensive first team this year (in his 15th season) and one defensive 2nd team. How are they equally good on defense, especially Lopez had more support? You don't have to like Gobert and Lopez is certainly better offensively, but facts are facts.

[younggunsmn]

I hope you actually watch Bucks games and see how Speedy Gonzales chase down players. You maybe the only person in the previous 14 years to have the foresight that Lopez is remotely in the conversation of DPOY or All-defensive first team. No one would confuse Lopez’s defensive prowess with Gobert’s ability.

Just exactly what do you think Utah did in their system to showcase Gobert’s defensive ability that Lopez would be just as good? How is that system better than having Giannis, Bledsoe or Holiday on your team? Keep in mind you just said rebounding is not equal to defense.

I'm not the only one genius. Brook Lopez was the runner-up in the voting for the NBA 2022-23 Defensive Player of the Year on Monday. 31 first place votes. I have no idea what you are smoking. There's tons of evidence he's playing above and beyond. He has the right system around him as did Gobert. I actually did watch Bucks games this year and it was apparent why.

Well for one, outside of Gobert the Jazz switched everything. As do the Bucks. In fact the one thing the Jazz couldn't do was adapt to a 5-out offense because they relied way too much on his drop coverage.

Gobert looks amazing in pure drop coverage on anything but a 5-out offense full of shooters. So does Brook, so does Carter Jr. Only problem is the Wolves can't switch everything in drop coverage for Gobert. Thats why he looks lost.

I know what the voting was this year. I am talking about the previous 14 years that Lopez played in the league. He was never in the conversation for DPOY. He only won NBA defensive team second team selection once before this year with Giannis and Bledsoe on the team. So, let's assume both Gobert and Lopez got system support like you said. Gobert wins a bunch of awards and Lopez just got one runner up, maybe 1 defensive first team this year (in his 15th season) and one defensive 2nd team. How are they equally good on defense, especially Lopez had more support? You don't have to like Gobert and Lopez is certainly better offensively, but facts are facts.

Take your L and walk away. 31 first place votes.
Brook Lopez is a tremendous defensive player and has been elite for at least as long as Gobert has.
He's won a title. Gobert has been mediocre to bad in the playoffs his entire career.
You are placing way too much weight on All-defense team voting which is skewed massively to stats which Utah schemed everything to funnel into Gobert and Giannis gets a lot of rebounds on the Bucks which leaves fewer for Lopez.
Gobert took a big step back in drop coverage and rim protection this year, blocks cut about in half of his career averages and only 5 blocks in 5 playoff games, despite having everything funneled into him.
He also struggled massively whenever we attempted to switch our scheme up or the other team went 5 out.

But the reason Brook Lopez works so well for the Bucks with Giannis is that he can shoot well from 3.
It opens everything up for everyone else. They can stick Portis or Lopez at the 5 and surround Giannis with 4 shooters.
If they had Gobert instead of Lopez they would have the same lane clogging issues we have.
The only knock I have on Lopez is that he has had trouble staying healthy, which is also a knock KAT and Rudy have had.
Swapping Gobert for Lopez would be an immediate upgrade to our offense and would not hurt our defense one bit.

Changing their 5 from guys like Greg Monroe and John Henson to Lopez in 2018 is one thing that really helped to unleash Giannis.
His shooting effieciency jumped from 54% each of the 2 years prior to 60% in his first year with Lopez, even though his 3 point shooting dropped 5% on more attempts. His 2 point % jumped an astounding 9 points from 55% to 64%.
That tells me he was getting to the rim a lot more frequently and effectively once Lopez came and was able to help space the floor and not clog the lane.

Why is this important? Our best player's best trait is his ability to get to the rim.
We would be smart to heed the Bucks example.
They were barely a playoff team let alone a contender when they had a non-shooting 5 next to Giannis.

[TimberKat]

I'm not the only one genius. Brook Lopez was the runner-up in the voting for the NBA 2022-23 Defensive Player of the Year on Monday. 31 first place votes. I have no idea what you are smoking. There's tons of evidence he's playing above and beyond. He has the right system around him as did Gobert. I actually did watch Bucks games this year and it was apparent why.

Well for one, outside of Gobert the Jazz switched everything. As do the Bucks. In fact the one thing the Jazz couldn't do was adapt to a 5-out offense because they relied way too much on his drop coverage.

Gobert looks amazing in pure drop coverage on anything but a 5-out offense full of shooters. So does Brook, so does Carter Jr. Only problem is the Wolves can't switch everything in drop coverage for Gobert. Thats why he looks lost.

I know what the voting was this year. I am talking about the previous 14 years that Lopez played in the league. He was never in the conversation for DPOY. He only won NBA defensive team second team selection once before this year with Giannis and Bledsoe on the team. So, let's assume both Gobert and Lopez got system support like you said. Gobert wins a bunch of awards and Lopez just got one runner up, maybe 1 defensive first team this year (in his 15th season) and one defensive 2nd team. How are they equally good on defense, especially Lopez had more support? You don't have to like Gobert and Lopez is certainly better offensively, but facts are facts.

Take your L and walk away. 31 first place votes.
Brook Lopez is a tremendous defensive player and has been elite for at least as long as Gobert has.
He's won a title. Gobert has been mediocre to bad in the playoffs his entire career.
You are placing way too much weight on All-defense team voting which is skewed massively to stats which Utah schemed everything to funnel into Gobert and Giannis gets a lot of rebounds on the Bucks which leaves fewer for Lopez.
Gobert took a big step back in drop coverage and rim protection this year, blocks cut about in half of his career averages and only 5 blocks in 5 playoff games, despite having everything funneled into him.
He also struggled massively whenever we attempted to switch our scheme up or the other team went 5 out.

But the reason Brook Lopez works so well for the Bucks with Giannis is that he can shoot well from 3.
It opens everything up for everyone else. They can stick Portis or Lopez at the 5 and surround Giannis with 4 shooters.
If they had Gobert instead of Lopez they would have the same lane clogging issues we have.
The only knock I have on Lopez is that he has had trouble staying healthy, which is also a knock KAT and Rudy have had.
Swapping Gobert for Lopez would be an immediate upgrade to our offense and would not hurt our defense one bit.

Changing their 5 from guys like Greg Monroe and John Henson to Lopez in 2018 is one thing that really helped to unleash Giannis.
His shooting effieciency jumped from 54% each of the 2 years prior to 60% in his first year with Lopez, even though his 3 point shooting dropped 5% on more attempts. His 2 point % jumped an astounding 9 points from 55% to 64%.
That tells me he was getting to the rim a lot more frequently and effectively once Lopez came and was able to help space the floor and not clog the lane.

Why is this important? Our best player's best trait is his ability to get to the rim.
We would be smart to heed the Bucks example.
They were barely a playoff team let alone a contender when they had a non-shooting 5 next to Giannis.

Holy S*t, What did Gobert ever do to you? We are not talking about Keyser Soze here. While you are at it, could you throw in the kitchen sink too? I don’t know what all that Gobert rant and Bucks play has to do with the point of the conversation. Let's summarize:

N: Gobert got carried. He looked good as a system player under a good coach with great players around him. He can't even score without being fed in exactly the right position. He got torched on defense multiple times.
T: I think you overly marginalized the Eiffel Stilt. If we put Greg Monroe or Andre Drummond on the same Jazz team, they both would had won multiple defensive player of the year awards? (I don't think so) GMs, in general, aren’t stupid (with a few Wolves’ exceptions), they would never pay him so much if that is the case.
N: Hardly, Drummond and Monroe are ancient washed up relics. If you added in Bam, Brook Lopez, Turner, Carter Jr in his place they would have played just as well.
T: Let's assume both Gobert and Lopez got system support like you said. Gobert wins a bunch of awards and Lopez just got one runner up, maybe 1 defensive first team this year (in his 15th season) and one defensive 2nd team. How are they equally good on defense, especially Lopez had more support?
N: Rebounds doesn't count toward Defense

The whole point is simply: I think you overly marginalized the Eiffel Stilt. Please don't use Jazz funnel rebounds to him as excuse. I am not going to rehash the no room to operate stuff. You don't like Gobert, we get it.

Are you really going character what happen to Bucks between 2017 to 2018 as switched to a 3 pt shooting center that unleash Giannis? Are you sure the following aren’t bigger factors?
1. Coaching change from Kidd to Budenholzer?
2. Getting Mirotic on the bench?
3. One more year of maturity from Giannis? Going from 23 to 24?
4. Brogdon going from year 2 to year 3?
5. Going from no center to have just any center? Hanson, 6-9, was never a starter except half a year 2016 and 2017. Monroe was a backup by that time. Both Hanson and Monroe were both basically out of the league after 2018. Bucks gone from no center to have a center. They didn’t switch from one kind of center to another. They simply got a big body real center that was available in free agency
6. If Lopez was so great, won’t Jazz try to sign him and move Gobert? It only cost the Bucks 3Mil in 2018 or could they had done a under the table deal like Joe Simth?

Take your L and move on. Never let facts stand in the way. 31 first place votes is a lot consider Dominion flipped the remain votes to JJJ.

[minimus]

Josh Hart is a winning player. I am not sure at what point of his career he made this transformation. Maybe he always played this way.

[TimberKat]

Josh Hart is a winning player. I am not sure at what point of his career he made this transformation. Maybe he always played this way.

He has a player's option for 12M next year. I don't know if we have cap room or sign/trade to get him. Also, can he play PG?

[Calinks]

Its kind of fun for me to see Wiggins and Dlo balling in a premiere playoff series. Two guys who seemed like were destined for failure here. Just goes to show a big part of success is being in the right place at the right time.

[younggunsmn]

...

Take an L was harsh I apologize for that.

1. My point was that you are unduly disparaging Brook Lopez.
He doesn't have a lot of defensive awards because he doesn't average double digit rebounds.
He is still the key to a title winning defense.
He doesn't need awards for that.
He's been a top 5 defensive center ever since he signed with Milwaukee and changed his game from being a 20PPG scorer to being an absolutely critical role player. Which is what Gobert can be best described as when he is at his best.

2. My 2nd point was that being next to a center who could shoot greatly improved Giannis's ability to attack the rim (with stats to back it up), not that it turned him into a superstar (although that helped).
Brogdon, Mirotic, and a dozen other role players have come and gone since, but none was as key as Lopez.

3. Our best player's best trait is attacking the rim and maybe we should heed the above example.

4. The Rudy Gobert I watched this season does not come close to what I expected defensively from someone with DPOY awards.
Since I did not watch him regularly for all those years with the Jazz I am struggling to reconcile those two things and until I see him be that player people talk about for an extended period I will continue to be skeptical.

5. Eiffel Stilt? Never heard that one before.
I'm gettting older and my eyes read that as Eiffel Stiff, and I was confused for a minute there.
I really hope that one doesn't catch on.

[minimus]

Josh Hart is a winning player. I am not sure at what point of his career he made this transformation. Maybe he always played this way.

He has a player's option for 12M next year. I don't know if we have cap room or sign/trade to get him. Also, can he play PG?

I don't know whether he can play PG or will be available via trade. But I definitely see how he fits here because of his elite (for guard) rebounding, hustle, toughness and unselfishness. For 12-15 mil per year he could play backup comboguard for us

[TimberKat]

...

Take an L was harsh I apologize for that.

1. My point was that you are unduly disparaging Brook Lopez.
He doesn't have a lot of defensive awards because he doesn't average double digit rebounds.
He is still the key to a title winning defense.
He doesn't need awards for that.
He's been a top 5 defensive center ever since he signed with Milwaukee and changed his game from being a 20PPG scorer to being an absolutely critical role player. Which is what Gobert can be best described as when he is at his best.

2. My 2nd point was that being next to a center who could shoot greatly improved Giannis's ability to attack the rim (with stats to back it up), not that it turned him into a superstar (although that helped).
Brogdon, Mirotic, and a dozen other role players have come and gone since, but none was as key as Lopez.

3. Our best player's best trait is attacking the rim and maybe we should heed the above example.

4. The Rudy Gobert I watched this season does not come close to what I expected defensively from someone with DPOY awards.
Since I did not watch him regularly for all those years with the Jazz I am struggling to reconcile those two things and until I see him be that player people talk about for an extended period I will continue to be skeptical.

5. Eiffel Stilt? Never heard that one before.
I'm gettting older and my eyes read that as Eiffel Stiff, and I was confused for a minute there.
I really hope that one doesn't catch on.

Thank you. I was a little harsh on Lopez but should give him credit for reinventing himself with 3pt shooting and playing a key part in Bucks' success. At age 30, he was basically on his last leg when he signed the 3.3M contract with Bucks. I don't watch Bucks on regular basis, but my believe is he benefited from the Bucks system, still is a bad rebounder for his size and not as good a defender as Gobert. He is good, but outside of this year I don't consider him a top 5 defensive center. Maybe you have stats to back that up. Happy to be proven wrong or just disagree on this point.

For players fit and Style, I think you should take into consideration Giannis is 6-11 and Ant is 6-4. They attack the rim differently and Giannis is practically a center. If money is no object, I still prefer Gobert over Lopez on Wolves. More comments on style of play in the Gobert thread.

I would said Gobert is basically playing like 90% (maybe 85%) of who he was this year. So if you like him, he is the second coming of Will the Stilt. If you don't like him, than he is the Eiffel Stiff.

[life_saver]

Read on Twitter

2nd worst shooter is like 6% better than Randle lol

[Biff Cooper]

I'm a little slow, but think it is pretty cool that the 8 teams left are seeded 1 through 8.

[Note30]

Josh Hart is a winning player. I am not sure at what point of his career he made this transformation. Maybe he always played this way.

He has a player's option for 12M next year. I don't know if we have cap room or sign/trade to get him. Also, can he play PG?

I don't know whether he can play PG or will be available via trade. But I definitely see how he fits here because of his elite (for guard) rebounding, hustle, toughness and unselfishness. For 12-15 mil per year he could play backup comboguard for us

.... No he can't be a PG. Have you guys ever watched him?

He could be a good replacement for Prince, and cover the 2-3 backup spots, but that's about it. He's just a stronger version of NAW.

[TimberKat]

Bad day in playoffs last night. The last thing I want to see is Lakers vs Heat in the finals. GSW got totally out sized. We should had traded Towns for Davis when we had the chance

[cmoss84]

DLo, Vando, and Beasily doing little to nothing to help the Lakers. I do not regret dealing any of them.

[TimberKat]

Looks like we could end up with Battle of the Giants in the finals - Jokic vs Embiid. Where is small ball? I get they both can shoot 3s but they mostly operated down low. Just wondering how does Murray and Harden get their layups?