Game 47: Minnesota (25-21) at Phoenix (24-21)

[winforlose]

My point is Finch keeps making choices I dislike and that IMO are bad for the team overall.

Enough said.

You do realize we are a fan board discussing our opinions and obeservations . I know I sound authoritative, but I am not in fact God .

[Klomp]

Ultimately, Minott is in his third season. He has had chances here, possibly even more than others in his position as a mid-2nd rounder on a good team usually gets. For whatever reason, it hasn't clicked to where I see him taking another step forward. He has plateaued, and that description might be generous.

When I coach kids, I have this overall view that you don’t have to complain about the refs. Refs are going to do what they are going to do, and you can’t control it. If you truly deserve to win a game, be so good that even bad reffing won’t take away a win.

I feel the same way here about Minott. If you want playing time, make yourself so good that a coach can’t NOT put you in the game. If you are sitting on the border of playability, that’s on you, not the coach.

Shrink, when you coach kids do you ever bench them after 12 seconds. Dilly made mistakes, Clark made mistakes, they didn’t get benched after the very first one. Minott getting on track is more valuable than Clark having a good showing. You might be wondering why, let me tell you:

1. Minott is the backup 3/4, Clark is the backup 2/3. If Naz or Randle go down Minott should see minutes. Normally DDV and TSJ are both ahead of Clark.
2. Minott is playoff eligible and might be necessary due to injury or foul trouble. Clark as a two way is not. Clark is for sure going to be signed to a Hinkie next year. Minott is going to be a 4th year next year. If Minott wants out he can take a 1 year deal as an RFO and force his way out. Finch making an enemy of the kid by refusing to play him even when doing so is better for the team is a great way to cause dissension and lose an interesting young player.

Finch was clearly in a bad mood last night and not suffering mistakes. That is fine, but taking it out on Minott is a bad look and I hope it does not continue. Trading Minott is likely this year or next year and I expect him to become a rotation player with whatever team acquires.

Just to be clear (because I even didn't remember), Finch did not go to Clark immediately upon pulling Minott. He went to Conley. Matchups matter. In that lineup, Minott was matched up against Bradley Beal. Minott is athletic, but he's not a guard. The Suns were playing a lot of three-guard lineups last night, making it harder to find a good spot for Josh. Especially when he's not playing well.

It was a 7-point game at the quarter break. The and-1 made it 10 points. Fast forward 4 minutes, and that lineup broke even. It was still a 10-point game when Ant subbed in for Julius at 7:41.

About another minute later, the coaches yelled for Jaylen to go in. Jaden was already at the scorer's table. When we finally had a dead-ball whistle another two minutes later, they went to a lineup of Ant/NAW/Jaylen/Jaden/Rudy against Phoenix's group of Tyus/Beal/Royce/Durant/Plumlee. Worth noting that to start the first play, they put NAW in the spot in the corner on Beal, where Minott was beaten back-door. Beal came around for the hand-off and made a mid-range jumper. The next time up the floor, Jaylen was actually on Beal, forced him to pass out of the drive and Durant missed the shot. I think that switchability was huge for that lineup out there. A couple possessions later, it was down to a 1-point game. That lineup obviously clicked in that moment, even if it technically wasn't some incredible stat-filled run for Clark. Some bad decisions by Ant due to trapping ballooned the lead back to 7, so Finch swapped in Julius for Rudy as the center. Got it back down to 4, and great individual defense from Clark on the last play of the half kept it there.

The starters and NAW held serve for the first 7 minutes of the 3rd, when Mike needed a break. It was a 2-point game now. The Suns had a lineup of Booker/Beal/Allen/O'Neale/Durant. The four Wolves on the floor were Ant/NAW/Jaden/Julius. If you turn to Minott, what's your coverage plan for Josh? Stick him on the guy in the corner again? How did that work last time? Putting in Jaylen allows there to be great POA coverage at almost any time between Jaden, NAW, Jaylen and Ant.

That's why Jaylen got the call. Not every decision has to be some vendetta against a specific player.

[winforlose]

When I coach kids, I have this overall view that you don’t have to complain about the refs. Refs are going to do what they are going to do, and you can’t control it. If you truly deserve to win a game, be so good that even bad reffing won’t take away a win.

I feel the same way here about Minott. If you want playing time, make yourself so good that a coach can’t NOT put you in the game. If you are sitting on the border of playability, that’s on you, not the coach.

Shrink, when you coach kids do you ever bench them after 12 seconds. Dilly made mistakes, Clark made mistakes, they didn’t get benched after the very first one. Minott getting on track is more valuable than Clark having a good showing. You might be wondering why, let me tell you:

1. Minott is the backup 3/4, Clark is the backup 2/3. If Naz or Randle go down Minott should see minutes. Normally DDV and TSJ are both ahead of Clark.
2. Minott is playoff eligible and might be necessary due to injury or foul trouble. Clark as a two way is not. Clark is for sure going to be signed to a Hinkie next year. Minott is going to be a 4th year next year. If Minott wants out he can take a 1 year deal as an RFO and force his way out. Finch making an enemy of the kid by refusing to play him even when doing so is better for the team is a great way to cause dissension and lose an interesting young player.

Finch was clearly in a bad mood last night and not suffering mistakes. That is fine, but taking it out on Minott is a bad look and I hope it does not continue. Trading Minott is likely this year or next year and I expect him to become a rotation player with whatever team acquires.

Just to be clear (because I even didn't remember), Finch did not go to Clark immediately upon pulling Minott. He went to Conley. Matchups matter. In that lineup, Minott was matched up against Bradley Beal. Minott is athletic, but he's not a guard. The Suns were playing a lot of three-guard lineups last night, making it harder to find a good spot for Josh. Especially when he's not playing well.

It was a 7-point game at the quarter break. The and-1 made it 10 points. Fast forward 4 minutes, and that lineup broke even. It was still a 10-point game when Ant subbed in for Julius at 7:41.

About another minute later, the coaches yelled for Jaylen to go in. Jaden was already at the scorer's table. When we finally had a dead-ball whistle another two minutes later, they went to a lineup of Ant/NAW/Jaylen/Jaden/Rudy against Phoenix's group of Tyus/Beal/Royce/Durant/Plumlee. Worth noting that to start the first play, they put NAW in the spot in the corner on Beal, where Minott was beaten back-door. Beal came around for the hand-off and made a mid-range jumper. The next time up the floor, Jaylen was actually on Beal, forced him to pass out of the drive and Durant missed the shot. I think that switchability was huge for that lineup out there. A couple possessions later, it was down to a 1-point game. That lineup obviously clicked in that moment, even if it technically wasn't some incredible stat-filled run for Clark. Some bad decisions by Ant due to trapping ballooned the lead back to 7, so Finch swapped in Julius for Rudy as the center. Got it back down to 4, and great individual defense from Clark on the last play of the half kept it there.

The starters and NAW held serve for the first 7 minutes of the 3rd, when Mike needed a break. It was a 2-point game now. The Suns had a lineup of Booker/Beal/Allen/O'Neale/Durant. The four Wolves on the floor were Ant/NAW/Jaden/Julius. If you turn to Minott, what's your coverage plan for Josh? Stick him on the guy in the corner again? How did that work last time? Putting in Jaylen allows there to be great POA coverage at almost any time between Jaden, NAW, Jaylen and Ant.

That's why Jaylen got the call. Not every decision has to be some vendetta against a specific player.

Front end of a back to back you play 37 year old Mike Conley 30:01. Mike looked decent overall with 6 assists and only 2 turnovers. He also hit 2 3s and went 2 for 4 from the floor overall. Go back and watch how the defense looked when Mike and Dilly shared the floor. It happened I believe twice for decent length stints. If you believe this was a good idea, and that Minott could not have functioned in some of those minutes, then I don’t know what else to tell you. Just like Luka Garza played 4:28 that could have easily gone to Miller. Your argument is matchup specific, and that is fine. My argument is teams make it work and get young guys minutes. GSW just beat OKC last night playing how many young players? Good coaches find ways to do both, and it is better to not use Josh at all then bring him in for one bad play and say that is it you are done. That is bad coaching, especially when the player is coming off a bad game and his nerves are probably getting to him.

[Klomp]

I will say it again, the depth chart at PF is Naz/Randle/Minott.

And?

Why are you forcing him into the lineup? Just because he's a "PF"? The Suns didn't really have a lineup out there that was conducive to playing a PF.

Against a team like Phoenix, Jaden is able to hold his own at "PF". He has played well this season both next to Randle and next to Gobert. So the need for Josh there diminishes significantly.

[BlacJacMac]

My point is Finch keeps making choices I dislike and that IMO are bad for the team overall.

Enough said.

You do realize we are a fan board discussing our opinions and obeservations . I know I sound authoritative, but I am not in fact God .

Of course. I was just highlighting that because we clearly do not agree on the issue at all - and there is no chance of either of convincing the other.

[winforlose]

Enough said.

You do realize we are a fan board discussing our opinions and obeservations . I know I sound authoritative, but I am not in fact God .

Of course. I was just highlighting that because we clearly do not agree on the issue at all - and there is no chance of either of convincing the other.

I like to think I can be persuasive . In all seriousness disagreements will happen, but for me it is the principle more than the instance. I feel any minutes that go to Garza over Miller are wasted because Garza isn’t that much better than Miller, and Miller needs them more than Garza. Likewise I always hate when a guy has a bad game and doesn’t get a real chance for a palate cleanser. Minott’s Monday performance is in many ways like a wound. You need to change that dressing to let it heal. If he cannot get the job done then the wound might get worse, but being benched that quickly isn’t helpful to his healing.

I do appreciate that you have a different view point, and if you would rather not share it that is your prerogative. If you do decide to share it I promise to be as respectful as possible in discussing it.

[winforlose]

I will say it again, the depth chart at PF is Naz/Randle/Minott.

And?

Why are you forcing him into the lineup? Just because he's a "PF"? The Suns didn't really have a lineup out there that was conducive to playing a PF.

Against a team like Phoenix, Jaden is able to hold his own at "PF". He has played well this season both next to Randle and next to Gobert. So the need for Josh there diminishes significantly.

You kinda quoted me out of context as that was in response to a more specific argument. My point was that minutes for Minott are more important than for Clark because Clark is further down the position depth chart with DDV and Shannon in front. Also Clark is not playoff eligible as a two way and is unlikely to be converted this season (we discussed this last night.) That means Minott is more likely the next man up if Naz or Randle is hurt and the other is in foul trouble in the playoffs. Jaden can play some of PF for sure, but Minott might be needed as well. Smart planning is to get him as ready as possible. I do appreciate we need to win this game, but I contend you can find minutes for Minott or Clark by taking some from the 30:01 that Mike played on the front end of a back to back. I don’t want Mike playing more than 25 most nights, especially when he is playing the next day (which he probably shouldn’t at his age.)

[Klomp]

Go back and watch how the defense looked when Mike and Dilly shared the floor. It happened I believe twice for decent length stints. If you believe this was a good idea, and that Minott could not have functioned in some of those minutes, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

I already broke down one of those shifts, from 11:48 to about the 4:30 mark of the second quarter. I believe they played 'em to a draw in the stint.

The other shift was to open the fourth quarter, with a lineup of Mike/Rob/Nickeil/Julius/Rudy. So you want Josh to sub in for Rob here? Rob is in there to spell Ant as an offensive creator. Do you really think Josh is capable of that role? It was a 4-point game at the quarter break and an 8-point game when they subbed out roughly 4 minutes later. So yes, I think the idea worked out pretty well.

[winforlose]

Go back and watch how the defense looked when Mike and Dilly shared the floor. It happened I believe twice for decent length stints. If you believe this was a good idea, and that Minott could not have functioned in some of those minutes, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

I already broke down one of those shifts, from 11:48 to about the 4:30 mark of the second quarter. I believe they played 'em to a draw in the stint.

The other shift was to open the fourth quarter, with a lineup of Mike/Rob/Nickeil/Julius/Rudy. So you want Josh to sub in for Rob here? Rob is in there to spell Ant as an offensive creator. Do you really think Josh is capable of that role? It was a 4-point game at the quarter break and an 8-point game when they subbed out roughly 4 minutes later. So yes, I think the idea worked out pretty well.

Klomp I literally said multiple times we need less Mike, not less Rob. I want Rob on the ball at the PG, and Minott can play the SF. I want Mike at or around 25 minutes a game high end and not even that on a back to back when Mike wants to play both games.

[Klomp]

I will say it again, the depth chart at PF is Naz/Randle/Minott.

And?

Why are you forcing him into the lineup? Just because he's a "PF"? The Suns didn't really have a lineup out there that was conducive to playing a PF.

Against a team like Phoenix, Jaden is able to hold his own at "PF". He has played well this season both next to Randle and next to Gobert. So the need for Josh there diminishes significantly.

You kinda quoted me out of context as that was in response to a more specific argument. My point was that minutes for Minott are more important than for Clark because Clark is further down the position depth chart with DDV and Shannon in front. Also Clark is not playoff eligible as a two way and is unlikely to be converted this season (we discussed this last night.) That means Minott is more likely the next man up if Naz or Randle is hurt and the other is in foul trouble in the playoffs. Jaden can play some of PF for sure, but Minott might be needed as well. Smart planning is to get him as ready as possible. I do appreciate we need to win this game, but I contend you can find minutes for Minott or Clark by taking some from the 30:01 that Mike played on the front end of a back to back. I don’t want Mike playing more than 25 most nights, especially when he is playing the next day (which he probably shouldn’t at his age.)

I think you bring up some good points, but I think that obviously the franchise believed last night was a critical game and I do think Finch has been trying to make a point to the guys. Maybe Josh has been victimized as a result, but I think obviously they believe in the versatility of the roster to fill his role.

And while Minott is the next man up in case of a future injury, Jaylen was next man up last night. Donte and TJ were unavailable. They tried Josh in a specific role as a defender, and he didn't deliver. They absolutely gave him a chance there. I do think there's probably more going on that we don't know about. Josh's confidence and bravado endeared many fans to him coming in as a rookie, but if it's all talk and he doesn't follow through and deliver when called upon, he ends up hurting the team more than helping it.

[BlacJacMac]

I will say it again, the depth chart at PF is Naz/Randle/Minott.

And?

Why are you forcing him into the lineup? Just because he's a "PF"? The Suns didn't really have a lineup out there that was conducive to playing a PF.

Against a team like Phoenix, Jaden is able to hold his own at "PF". He has played well this season both next to Randle and next to Gobert. So the need for Josh there diminishes significantly.

You kinda quoted me out of context as that was in response to a more specific argument. My point was that minutes for Minott are more important than for Clark because Clark is further down the position depth chart with DDV and Shannon in front. Also Clark is not playoff eligible as a two way and is unlikely to be converted this season (we discussed this last night.) That means Minott is more likely the next man up if Naz or Randle is hurt and the other is in foul trouble in the playoffs. Jaden can play some of PF for sure, but Minott might be needed as well. Smart planning is to get him as ready as possible. I do appreciate we need to win this game, but I contend you can find minutes for Minott or Clark by taking some from the 30:01 that Mike played on the front end of a back to back. I don’t want Mike playing more than 25 most nights, especially when he is playing the next day (which he probably shouldn’t at his age.)

Disagree!

If we are at all entertaining the idea of a NAW trade, getting a real look at Clark before it happens is a huge deal. Even if its with an eye towards next year and not this year.

But I also don't think Minott is an NBA player. And I don't think he does anything well enough on the floor to counteract his negatives. I don't see him being playable in the postseason, and will be surprised if he isn't traded by the deadline if someone will offer us a 2nd round pick for him.

Clark, on the other hand, already appears to be a significantly plus defender and he looks shockingly like NAW navigating screens. If his shooting from Iowa translates, he's, at worst, a borderline starting caliber player.

[Klomp]

Go back and watch how the defense looked when Mike and Dilly shared the floor. It happened I believe twice for decent length stints. If you believe this was a good idea, and that Minott could not have functioned in some of those minutes, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

I already broke down one of those shifts, from 11:48 to about the 4:30 mark of the second quarter. I believe they played 'em to a draw in the stint.

The other shift was to open the fourth quarter, with a lineup of Mike/Rob/Nickeil/Julius/Rudy. So you want Josh to sub in for Rob here? Rob is in there to spell Ant as an offensive creator. Do you really think Josh is capable of that role? It was a 4-point game at the quarter break and an 8-point game when they subbed out roughly 4 minutes later. So yes, I think the idea worked out pretty well.

Klomp I literally said multiple times we need less Mike, not less Rob. I want Rob on the ball at the PG, and Minott can play the SF. I want Mike at or around 25 minutes a game high end and not even that on a back to back when Mike wants to play both games.

OK, even still. Mike is a 38% 3-point shooter this season and for his career. A major part of his role is to space the floor for the offensive creator. Putting Josh in that role is putting a career 30% shooter (who is shooting 25% this season) in that role.

[winforlose]

And?

Why are you forcing him into the lineup? Just because he's a "PF"? The Suns didn't really have a lineup out there that was conducive to playing a PF.

Against a team like Phoenix, Jaden is able to hold his own at "PF". He has played well this season both next to Randle and next to Gobert. So the need for Josh there diminishes significantly.

You kinda quoted me out of context as that was in response to a more specific argument. My point was that minutes for Minott are more important than for Clark because Clark is further down the position depth chart with DDV and Shannon in front. Also Clark is not playoff eligible as a two way and is unlikely to be converted this season (we discussed this last night.) That means Minott is more likely the next man up if Naz or Randle is hurt and the other is in foul trouble in the playoffs. Jaden can play some of PF for sure, but Minott might be needed as well. Smart planning is to get him as ready as possible. I do appreciate we need to win this game, but I contend you can find minutes for Minott or Clark by taking some from the 30:01 that Mike played on the front end of a back to back. I don’t want Mike playing more than 25 most nights, especially when he is playing the next day (which he probably shouldn’t at his age.)

Disagree!

If we are at all entertaining the idea of a NAW trade, getting a real look at Clark before it happens is a huge deal. Even if its with an eye towards next year and not this year.

But I also don't think Minott is an NBA player. And I don't think he does anything well enough on the floor to counteract his negatives. I don't see him being playable in the postseason, and will be surprised if he isn't traded by the deadline if someone will offer us a 2nd round pick for him.

Clark, on the other hand, already appears to be a significantly plus defender and he looks shockingly like NAW navigating screens. If his shooting from Iowa translates, he's, at worst, a borderline starting caliber player.

My longer response got killed.

1. Clark is likely back on a Hinkie. His offense might translate, it might not, but TSJ is likely the higher pecking order player because he is a first, and has more offensive tools

2. We could have played both. Mike played too many minutes last night for a 37 year old, especially on a back to back front end if he will play tonight as well.

3. This is the crux of the dispute. You think Minott is one of those Garza type guys whose ceiling is probably the G and might get 3rd string opportunities in the NBA until he doesn’t. I think Minott is green as grass, has many intangibles, and is likely an 8th man on a good team in a few years. The variable is opportunity, either here or elsewhere.

[winforlose]

I already broke down one of those shifts, from 11:48 to about the 4:30 mark of the second quarter. I believe they played 'em to a draw in the stint.

The other shift was to open the fourth quarter, with a lineup of Mike/Rob/Nickeil/Julius/Rudy. So you want Josh to sub in for Rob here? Rob is in there to spell Ant as an offensive creator. Do you really think Josh is capable of that role? It was a 4-point game at the quarter break and an 8-point game when they subbed out roughly 4 minutes later. So yes, I think the idea worked out pretty well.

Klomp I literally said multiple times we need less Mike, not less Rob. I want Rob on the ball at the PG, and Minott can play the SF. I want Mike at or around 25 minutes a game high end and not even that on a back to back when Mike wants to play both games.

OK, even still. Mike is a 38% 3-point shooter this season and for his career. A major part of his role is to space the floor for the offensive creator. Putting Josh in that role is putting a career 30% shooter (who is shooting 25% this season) in that role.

This is a good counter argument. My response is that Mike might be needed tonight and I am much less comfortable playing him on a back to back after 30 minutes the night before. We are thin at PG and we need to treat Mike like the valuable resource he is. Minott might not hit a 3 that Mike hits, but he might also get a better look than Mike gets. Minott might play better defense than Mike, and he might grab rebounds that Mike does not. There are trade offs and risks in that move. But, my overarching point is that any Minott minutes have inherent value of developing Minott. Whereas Mike minutes above 25 are detrimental to Mike’s longevity and playoff health.

[BlacJacMac]

Klomp I literally said multiple times we need less Mike, not less Rob. I want Rob on the ball at the PG, and Minott can play the SF. I want Mike at or around 25 minutes a game high end and not even that on a back to back when Mike wants to play both games.

OK, even still. Mike is a 38% 3-point shooter this season and for his career. A major part of his role is to space the floor for the offensive creator. Putting Josh in that role is putting a career 30% shooter (who is shooting 25% this season) in that role.

This is a good counter argument. My response is that Mike might be needed tonight and I am much less comfortable playing him on a back to back after 30 minutes the night before. We are thin at PG and we need to treat Mike like the valuable resource he is. Minott might not hit a 3 that Mike hits, but he might also get a better look than Mike gets. Minott might play better defense than Mike, and he might grab rebounds that Mike does not. There are trade offs and risks in that move. But, my overarching point is that any Minott minutes have inherent value of developing Minott. Whereas Mike minutes above 25 are detrimental to Mike’s longevity and playoff health.

And my counter is hopefully we've got our **** together and Finch knew we needed Mike for a tough game last night and plans to rest him more tonight against a tanking team that has lost 10 of its last 11.

[winforlose]

OK, even still. Mike is a 38% 3-point shooter this season and for his career. A major part of his role is to space the floor for the offensive creator. Putting Josh in that role is putting a career 30% shooter (who is shooting 25% this season) in that role.

This is a good counter argument. My response is that Mike might be needed tonight and I am much less comfortable playing him on a back to back after 30 minutes the night before. We are thin at PG and we need to treat Mike like the valuable resource he is. Minott might not hit a 3 that Mike hits, but he might also get a better look than Mike gets. Minott might play better defense than Mike, and he might grab rebounds that Mike does not. There are trade offs and risks in that move. But, my overarching point is that any Minott minutes have inherent value of developing Minott. Whereas Mike minutes above 25 are detrimental to Mike’s longevity and playoff health.

And my counter is hopefully we've got our **** together and Finch knew we needed Mike for a tough game last night and plans to rest him more tonight against a tanking team that has lost 10 of its last 11.

Yes because we never struggle against bad teams, and we never struggle with a road/road back to back. Especially Ant, he never has a problem with either of those things, not even when elevation is making him extra tired

[Klomp]

Last night had postseason tiebreaker implications. Yes, it's just one game just like tonight is one game, but sometimes winning the right games is just as important as the win itself.

[BlacJacMac]

This is a good counter argument. My response is that Mike might be needed tonight and I am much less comfortable playing him on a back to back after 30 minutes the night before. We are thin at PG and we need to treat Mike like the valuable resource he is. Minott might not hit a 3 that Mike hits, but he might also get a better look than Mike gets. Minott might play better defense than Mike, and he might grab rebounds that Mike does not. There are trade offs and risks in that move. But, my overarching point is that any Minott minutes have inherent value of developing Minott. Whereas Mike minutes above 25 are detrimental to Mike’s longevity and playoff health.

And my counter is hopefully we've got our **** together and Finch knew we needed Mike for a tough game last night and plans to rest him more tonight against a tanking team that has lost 10 of its last 11.

Yes because we never struggle against bad teams, and we never struggle with a road/road back to back. Especially Ant, he never has a problem with either of those things, not even when elevation is making him extra tired

[BlacJacMac]

Kind of amazing that this was basically Clark's NBA debut, as he had played a total of 10 garbage time minutes over 4 games previously.

He played the final ~5 minutes of the 2nd and 3rd quarters against a full-strength Suns team.

Wolves last night: Allowed 1.15 PPP.
In Clark's 10 Minutes: Allowed 0.68 PPP

[TimberKat]

Just wondering, we actually played better defense with Naz out and Randle on the bench. We seem to get the defensive identity back when we have: Gobert, JMcD, NAW, Ant, and Clark on the floor. Maybe this is our small lineup killer that we should use more often against elite guards. I wonder how well it will work against GSW and Dallas with Luka?