Butler has requested a trade, the saga continues

[AirP.]

how did the Towns Butler dynamic look tonight?

Normal. Butler never passed to Towns so it basically looked the same as it always has.

Well, based off tracking Butler passed to Towns 4 times, same for Wiggins, Taj and Teague passed to Towns 5 times each.

I really wish NBA.Com would filter out the inbounds passes to see things clearer but Towns passed to Butler 11 times, 8 times to Teague so I'm sure a bulk of those were inbound passes, he passed to Wiggins 4 times.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1626157/passes-dash/

For some reason Towns doesn't really demand the ball, the guy is highly talented but for some reason just doesn't seem to want the ball. Towns did have one time I remember where he went strong and got position inside on Aldridge and was fouled because of it, but other then that he just seems to float to the 3pt line a lot. There is a framework to the offense but you do have options on what you can do within that framework. Wiggins early on used some of those options to make scoring opportunities for himself without the ball(cutting towards the basket for easy passes and scores).

[Norseman79]

It is painfully obvious this team is horribly assembled. Towns once again was owned by a more aggressive, physical player. Tell me again how he shouldn't play the 4? Last year, I figured it was just going to take some time for people to gel, I know just think it is obvious Butler doesn't fit with this team. He is the best player on this team, and if he was 22 years old I would say we should dump the rest and build around him, but that isn't the case. Lets just hope he keeps scoring points and making splash plays so someone over reacts and pays a high price for him.

Paying a high price for Jimmy is not overreacting. It is reacting to him being one of the 10 best players on this planet.

He is also a free agent after this year who may not resign with anyone who trades for him.

[Killboard]

how did the Towns Butler dynamic look tonight?

Normal. Butler never passed to Towns so it basically looked the same as it always has.

Well, based off tracking Butler passed to Towns 4 times, same for Wiggins, Taj and Teague passed to Towns 5 times each.

I really wish NBA.Com would filter out the inbounds passes to see things clearer but Towns passed to Butler 11 times, 8 times to Teague so I'm sure a bulk of those were inbound passes, he passed to Wiggins 4 times.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1626157/passes-dash/

For some reason Towns doesn't really demand the ball, the guy is highly talented but for some reason just doesn't seem to want the ball. Towns did have one time I remember where he went strong and got position inside on Aldridge and was fouled because of it, but other then that he just seems to float to the 3pt line a lot. There is a framework to the offense but you do have options on what you can do within that framework. Wiggins early on used some of those options to make scoring opportunities for himself without the ball(cutting towards the basket for easy passes and scores).

The reason is he is aliented. Did you see the stat about last season clutch time and how many assist Butler gave him?

[AirP.]

Normal. Butler never passed to Towns so it basically looked the same as it always has.

Well, based off tracking Butler passed to Towns 4 times, same for Wiggins, Taj and Teague passed to Towns 5 times each.

I really wish NBA.Com would filter out the inbounds passes to see things clearer but Towns passed to Butler 11 times, 8 times to Teague so I'm sure a bulk of those were inbound passes, he passed to Wiggins 4 times.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1626157/passes-dash/

For some reason Towns doesn't really demand the ball, the guy is highly talented but for some reason just doesn't seem to want the ball. Towns did have one time I remember where he went strong and got position inside on Aldridge and was fouled because of it, but other then that he just seems to float to the 3pt line a lot. There is a framework to the offense but you do have options on what you can do within that framework. Wiggins early on used some of those options to make scoring opportunities for himself without the ball(cutting towards the basket for easy passes and scores).

The reason is he is alienated. Did you see the stat about last season clutch time and how many assist Butler gave him?

Demand the ball. If Towns felt his teammates missed an opportunity to give him the ball where he could score he has to let them know time after time.

The big problem is that Towns is a big, he can't just go get the ball then make a play like most non bigs can do. Towns has to speak up during games, when you're playing in the games you don't see the whole floor like fans, players have to let their teammates know if they have an advantage or have been getting open.

[mplsfonz23]

Anybody else see this?

Pat Riley informed the locker room of the Miami Heat that he would stick with the current roster to start the season in a show of loyalty the organization has for their current players.
The Heat have aggressively pursued a trade for Jimmy Butler, but talks are now dormant.
Miami has built their trade offer around Josh Richardson.
Via Shams Charania/The Athletic

Show of loyalty? That's good.
I bet Josh is extremely happy.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Anybody else see this?

Pat Riley informed the locker room of the Miami Heat that he would stick with the current roster to start the season in a show of loyalty the organization has for their current players.
The Heat have aggressively pursued a trade for Jimmy Butler, but talks are now dormant.
Miami has built their trade offer around Josh Richardson.
Via Shams Charania/The Athletic

Show of loyalty? That's good.
I bet Josh is extremely happy.

Season already started, so i guess everyone is fair game again.

[shrink]

Anybody else see this?

Pat Riley informed the locker room of the Miami Heat that he would stick with the current roster to start the season in a show of loyalty the organization has for their current players.
The Heat have aggressively pursued a trade for Jimmy Butler, but talks are now dormant.
Miami has built their trade offer around Josh Richardson.
Via Shams Charania/The Athletic

Show of loyalty? That's good.
I bet Josh is extremely happy.

I’m extremely happy too.

[mplsfonz23]

Anybody else see this?

Pat Riley informed the locker room of the Miami Heat that he would stick with the current roster to start the season in a show of loyalty the organization has for their current players.
The Heat have aggressively pursued a trade for Jimmy Butler, but talks are now dormant.
Miami has built their trade offer around Josh Richardson.
Via Shams Charania/The Athletic

Show of loyalty? That's good.
I bet Josh is extremely happy.

Season already started, so i guess everyone is fair game again.

I wonder if Miami fans will be upset if he does not come there. Sounds like they were waiting for the trade as much as we were.
Pat overplayed his hand, and now has to kiss buns.

[shrink]

Anybody else see this?

Pat Riley informed the locker room of the Miami Heat that he would stick with the current roster to start the season in a show of loyalty the organization has for their current players.
The Heat have aggressively pursued a trade for Jimmy Butler, but talks are now dormant.
Miami has built their trade offer around Josh Richardson.
Via Shams Charania/The Athletic

Show of loyalty? That's good.
I bet Josh is extremely happy.

Season already started, so i guess everyone is fair game again.

I wonder if Miami fans will be upset if he does not come there. Sounds like they were waiting for the trade as much as we were.
Pat overplayed his hand, and now has to kiss buns.

No, what I have seen from many posters is sour grapes. They didn’t get him, so the posts have switched to, “I didn’t want him in the first place! He’s <insert every negative about Butler>”

Worse, over on the Trade Board, one Heat fan keeps arguing that NBA deals are done before medical records are exchanged. Another has talked about signing Butler with cap space this summer. They continue to say Riley doesn’t leak, even though that’s the only place leaks about MIA’s front office could come from. It’s frustrating to see disappointment turn into wanton ignorance and/or dishonesty.

[mplsfonz23]

Season already started, so i guess everyone is fair game again.

I wonder if Miami fans will be upset if he does not come there. Sounds like they were waiting for the trade as much as we were.
Pat overplayed his hand, and now has to kiss buns.

No, what I have seen from many posters is sour grapes. They didn’t get him, so the posts have switched to, “I didn’t want him in the first place! He’s <insert every negative about Butler>”

Worse, over on the Trade Board, one Heat fan keeps arguing that NBA deals are done before medical records are exchanged. Another has talked about signing Butler with cap space this summer. They continue to say Riley doesn’t leak, even though that’s the only place leaks about MIA’s front office could come from. It’s frustrating to see disappointment turn into wanton ignorance and/or dishonesty.

Should have known...
Cap space? I thought they didn't have any?

[Crazy-Canuck]

Season already started, so i guess everyone is fair game again.

I wonder if Miami fans will be upset if he does not come there. Sounds like they were waiting for the trade as much as we were.
Pat overplayed his hand, and now has to kiss buns.

No, what I have seen from many posters is sour grapes. They didn’t get him, so the posts have switched to, “I didn’t want him in the first place! He’s <insert every negative about Butler>”

Worse, over on the Trade Board, one Heat fan keeps arguing that NBA deals are done before medical records are exchanged. Another has talked about signing Butler with cap space this summer. They continue to say Riley doesn’t leak, even though that’s the only place leaks about MIA’s front office could come from. It’s frustrating to see disappointment turn into wanton ignorance and/or dishonesty.

I get why the heat fans should be upset. They know they were getting a great deal, so of course many would be bitter when it got taken off the table at ther last minute.

Also, i don't think heat leaked either. Everything was a plant to use the social media to pressure the wolves into a bad deal.

[shrink]

I wonder if Miami fans will be upset if he does not come there. Sounds like they were waiting for the trade as much as we were.
Pat overplayed his hand, and now has to kiss buns.

No, what I have seen from many posters is sour grapes. They didn’t get him, so the posts have switched to, “I didn’t want him in the first place! He’s <insert every negative about Butler>”

Worse, over on the Trade Board, one Heat fan keeps arguing that NBA deals are done before medical records are exchanged. Another has talked about signing Butler with cap space this summer. They continue to say Riley doesn’t leak, even though that’s the only place leaks about MIA’s front office could come from. It’s frustrating to see disappointment turn into wanton ignorance and/or dishonesty.

I get why the heat fans should be upset. They know they were getting a great deal, so of course many would be bitter when it got taken off the table at ther last minute.

Also, i don't think heat leaked either. Everything was a plant to use the social media to pressure the wolves into a bad deal.

I don’t have sympathy for MIA fans here. Riley had the chance to make a different offer that was less of a fleecing (not forcing us to eat Waiters, taking on Dieng, tossing in another pick, etc), but he chose not to, and they don’t put any responsibility on him for that choice. Worse, he led them to this period of mediocrity, that will end at the earliest in two years, when the deals HE signed start to expire. Jimmy Butler was a possible lifeline out of that, a chance to matter a bit in the East. However, if they only want him with 10 cents on the dollar, and not 15 cents, it’s hard to feel sorry for them when they only blame Thibs for saying no, and don’t put any responsibility on Riley.

Also, maybe this is a definition thing, but what do you consider leaking, if not a plant to put pressure on the Wolves? Do you think leaking is only accidental?

[shrink]

I listed three Heat poster lies earlier, and here are a couple others:

Thibs is never going to trade Jimmy - it was bad faith!” And they get mad when other posters make better offers than theirs .. which isn’t hard at all.

“Waiters is just filler, and we shouldn’t be talking about him.” Waiters is a bad contract, 3 years, $36 mil. That’s not simply filler - forcing MIN to take him affects the value of the deal.

“Since Waiters is filler, his health doesn’t matter.” There are 36 million reasons why it matters, and hopefully production he can provide reduces the negativity of his deal.

This kind of stuff makes me frustrated. Why post here and discuss the nba if you’re not going to do so honestly? RealGM posters should be better than that.

[gom]

Many Heat fans did not want Butler. I've been consistently against the deal all along. Please feel free to find anywhere I've expressed a different opinion. He was only ever valid to me as a rental and (therefore) not worth trading assets.

I'm much happier with Richardson, Winslow, Bam, and our draft pick. Feel free to max him out if you think it's such a great idea. A 5-year deal to a 30 year-old player (he'll be 30 next September when the deal begins) with his injury history is a terrible plan.

[shrink]

Many Heat fans did not want Butler. I've been consistently against the deal all along. Please feel free to find anywhere I've expressed a different opinion. He was only ever valid to me as a rental and (therefore) not worth trading assets.

I'm much happier with Richardson, Winslow, Bam, and our draft pick. Feel free to max him out if you think it's such a great idea. A 5-year deal to a 30 year-old player (he'll be 30 next September when the deal begins) with his injury history is a terrible plan.

You’ve been fine and consistent, and I have no problem with people having very different opinions of Jimmy Butler. Those differences make discussions far more interesting.

However, when other posters misrepresent the CBA on trade rules, cap space and established facts, it makes discussions impossible. We need honesty to have a legitimate debate, otherwise, why should anyone waste their time?

[Neeva]

Ok have fun with a middling team in caphell!

Many Heat fans did not want Butler. I've been consistently against the deal all along. Please feel free to find anywhere I've expressed a different opinion. He was only ever valid to me as a rental and (therefore) not worth trading assets.

I'm much happier with Richardson, Winslow, Bam, and our draft pick. Feel free to max him out if you think it's such a great idea. A 5-year deal to a 30 year-old player (he'll be 30 next September when the deal begins) with his injury history is a terrible plan.

[ifrosty13]

I love the term cap hell when referring to the Heat when they'll have plenty cap space in 2 years. We do have a ton of role players and no clear star. I would have loved Butler and still think they will come around on a deal eventually (If I had to guess, Minnesota is waiting for Dec 15 to pass to see if they get any better offers before circling back to past negotiations).

I do think that if Riley said that, there's no need to make it public, it was made public for a reason. Maybe that message is to tell Minnesota we're moving on and see if they bite (my best guess), maybe it's to make the constant chatter around the players go away and they don't feel like they can be traded at any moment. I personally don't believe a word Riley uttered that he wouldn't trade this whole team tomorrow if a deal that he likes came around.

Honestly, I wonder if, instead of Waiters, a deal would have gotten done if it was Olynyk and Richardson (no 1st) for Butler.

[shrink]

Honestly, I wonder if, instead of Waiters, a deal would have gotten done if it was Olynyk and Richardson (no 1st) for Butler.

Good post overall, and I wanted to talk about this specifically.

Personally, I think Olynyk is about the same value as Waiters plus 1st, so this swap would be of the same value as the previous trade, which Thibs would decline.

However, I still think this is the right track. Thibs reportedly wanted another pick to help dispose of Waiters deal. If Waiters is gone, then the second pick should be gone too. I like this for MIA with just the 2019 pick, because it’s almost certainly a late pick with Jimmy there the rest of the season, but nobody knows where that 2023 pick would be, so it mitigates their risk.

As a fan, I don’t like that package. Dieng is still here, and the return is mainly just decent players without Star upside. Realistically though, I think Thibs would take Richardson, Olynyk, and a 2019 MIA 1st.

[ifrosty13]

Honestly, I wonder if, instead of Waiters, a deal would have gotten done if it was Olynyk and Richardson (no 1st) for Butler.

Good post overall, and I wanted to talk about this specifically.

Personally, I think Olynyk is about the same value as Waiters plus 1st, so this swap would be of the same value as the previous trade, which Thibs would decline.

However, I still think this is the right track. Thibs reportedly wanted another pick to help dispose of Waiters deal. If Waiters is gone, then the second pick should be gone too. I like this for MIA with just the 2019 pick, because it’s almost certainly a late pick with Jimmy there the rest of the season, but nobody knows where that 2023 pick would be, so it mitigates their risk.

As a fan, I don’t like that package. Dieng is still here, and the return is mainly just decent players without Star upside. Realistically though, I think Thibs would take Richardson, Olynyk, and a 2019 MIA 1st.

I guess I'd be fine with the first since Miami doesn't really value them, probably have the pick lottery protected just in case something horrific happens and I think most people in Miami would be Ok with this deal. I think for us to take Dieng either James Johnson or Dion would have to be included for Miami to be mildly interested (and I actually think Dieng is a good player that would fit well in Miami)

[shrink]

Honestly, I wonder if, instead of Waiters, a deal would have gotten done if it was Olynyk and Richardson (no 1st) for Butler.

Good post overall, and I wanted to talk about this specifically.

Personally, I think Olynyk is about the same value as Waiters plus 1st, so this swap would be of the same value as the previous trade, which Thibs would decline.

However, I still think this is the right track. Thibs reportedly wanted another pick to help dispose of Waiters deal. If Waiters is gone, then the second pick should be gone too. I like this for MIA with just the 2019 pick, because it’s almost certainly a late pick with Jimmy there the rest of the season, but nobody knows where that 2023 pick would be, so it mitigates their risk.

As a fan, I don’t like that package. Dieng is still here, and the return is mainly just decent players without Star upside. Realistically though, I think Thibs would take Richardson, Olynyk, and a 2019 MIA 1st.

I guess I'd be fine with the first since Miami doesn't really value them, probably have the pick lottery protected just in case something horrific happens and I think most people in Miami would be Ok with this deal. I think for us to take Dieng either James Johnson or Dion would have to be included for Miami to be mildly interested (and I actually think Dieng is a good player that would fit well in Miami)

I think protections are fair or request, but since MIA owes it’s 2021 pick, the Stepian Rule would prevent normal protections (like MIA 2019 Top 14 Protected, else MIA 2020, Top 14 Protected, else ...).

We’d have to see them negotiate through less options, such as ..

a. MIA 2019 Top 14 Protected, else 2023 MIA 1st (plus whatever protections - can’t go out past 7 years)
b. MIA 2019 Top 14 Protected, else becomes 2022 2nd. 2024 2nd, bottom 56-60 protected
c. MIA 2019 Top 14 Protected, else the obligation to MIN is extinguished.

Waiting until 2023 is bad for both sides. MIA faces more uncertainty (unlike 2019 when they are pretty confident the pick will be in the 20’s), and for MIN, while this is more valuable, waiting nearly 5 years for the pick reduces it’s current value, especially to Thibs who will be long-forgotten by the time it conveys. It might be smarter to include some other type of small incentive (cash?) than to have this turn into a 2023 pick.