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Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

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BlacJacMac
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1021 » by BlacJacMac » Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:21 pm

Klomp wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
Klomp wrote:However, I don't believe it's removed until a year after the layer's last game played. Valuable if someone go seriously hurt early in a longterm contract, but the only potential value here is if he were waived and the money stretched over 3 years instead of 1, the last 2 years would disappear.


Right. And the injury clause doesn't affect us with Mike at all. I just added it for the sake of being complete on the rules.

It could if he retired due to injury...but I don't know how strict they are about those rules.

It's only actually happened like once or twice ever....was it Darius Miles perhaps?


Incredibly strict.

The determination as to whether an injury or illness is career ending is made by a physician jointly selected by the league and players association, or by a Fitness to Play panel. The determination is based on whether the injury or illness will prevent the player from playing for the remainder of his career, or if it is severe enough that continuing to play constitutes a medically unacceptable risk.


And it wouldn't help us anyways because even if it is granted, it doesn't take effect until the Anniversary of the last game the player participated in. And by that time his contract would already be over.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1022 » by winforlose » Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:35 pm

cmoss84 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:Another Butler scenario:

Chi in: Randle and Stewart
Det in: Butler, '25 FRP (Det), '25 SRP (Utah)
MN in: Ivey, Holland, Duran


The trade board would call this the Wolves stealing value as Randle and a first are not worth both Ivey and Duran, much less Holland as well. You need to think about the individual value of each player on the trade market. Also Butler doesn’t want to be in Detroit and won’t stay. That means he is a rental and a disruptive one at that. A young Pistons team coming out of a rebuild is trading away four young players for Butler (35 years old, expensive, and on the decline,) their own first (which is not lottery if they make the playoffs and that is the only reason to acquire Butler,) and a 2nd that should have decent value. Finally you say Chicago but I think you mean Miami.

Has Butler mentioned where he wanted to go? I thought Dallas was one but I can't remember.


Real GM put up a story that only the Suns would offer him his extension so they are the only team he wants to be traded too. The original list included 3 other teams including GSW and Dallas, but my understanding is that is old news. Butler is likely to be sent home and I expect the league and NBAPA will work out deal canceling Jimmy’s money this year and next and banning him from the NBA for refusing to play, or refusing to play to his ability (functionally denying Miami the benefit of the bargain and violating his contract.)
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1023 » by Klomp » Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:39 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
Klomp wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
Right. And the injury clause doesn't affect us with Mike at all. I just added it for the sake of being complete on the rules.

It could if he retired due to injury...but I don't know how strict they are about those rules.

It's only actually happened like once or twice ever....was it Darius Miles perhaps?


Incredibly strict.

The determination as to whether an injury or illness is career ending is made by a physician jointly selected by the league and players association, or by a Fitness to Play panel. The determination is based on whether the injury or illness will prevent the player from playing for the remainder of his career, or if it is severe enough that continuing to play constitutes a medically unacceptable risk.


And it wouldn't help us anyways because even if it is granted, it doesn't take effect until the Anniversary of the last game the player participated in. And by that time his contract would already be over.

Hence my point that it would have to be a waiver and stretch...
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1024 » by cmoss84 » Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:25 pm

A Butler-George-Beal trade falls just short and needs a 4th team to facilitate the trade? Would we want to be part of these shenanigans? How could we benefit here?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1025 » by cmoss84 » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:54 am

Would ya'll trade Julius and Jaden for Zion?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1026 » by shrink » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:55 am

cmoss84 wrote:Would ya'll trade Julius and Jaden for Zion?

We can’t aggregate, and Zion makes more than Julius, so it’s illegal.

But if it was legal? Probably. It lowers our floor, but raises our ceiling.

I’d rather send DDV than Jaden, and re-sign NAW
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1027 » by shrink » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:58 am

So, I saw a trade on the T&T board where a SAC fan did a three-way where he sent out an UNPROTECTED 2025 1st and a couple 2nds, and ended up with Jaden McDaniels (we got Cam Thomas). There’s many reasons we couldn’t make that trade, but I am extremely high on the 2025 Draft Class. I think there are superstars to be had in the first 3-5 picks, and front offices will be finding all stars between 6-20.

Here’s a scenario, just for fun.

Imagine Ant is out for the season, and Connelly dives full bore into acquiring 2025 draft capital. Ant, Rudy and Mike are off limits.

What trades can you make?

https://tankathon.com/

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1028 » by cmoss84 » Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:55 am

shrink wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:Would ya'll trade Julius and Jaden for Zion?

We can’t aggregate, and Zion makes more than Julius, so it’s illegal.

But if it was legal? Probably. It lowers our floor, but raises our ceiling.

I’d rather send DDV than Jaden, and re-sign NAW


Here's what I came up with on spotrac...
(please feel free to kick me off of this site if you guys are sick of my crazy trades)

Det OUT: Isaiah Stewart, Ausar Thompson, Bobi Klintman
Det IN: Brandon Ingram, Daniel Theis
Cade-Ivey-THJ-Beasley-Holland-Ingram-Harris-Fontecchio-Duran-Theis-Reed

NOP OUT: Zion, BI, Jordan Hawkins, JRE, Daniel Theis, Jose Alvarado
NOP IN: Julius Randle, Jaden, NAW, Stewart, Thompson, '25 SRP (Utah)
Murray-CJ-NAW-BBJr-Thompson-Jaden-Jones-Murphy III-Randle-Missi-Stewart

Utah OUT: Brice Sensabaugh
Utah IN: Jordan Hawkins, Bobi Klintman
who cares

MN OUT: Julius, Jaden, NAW, '25 SRP (Utah)
MN IN: Zion, Sensabaugh, Alvarado, JRE
1st apron
PG: Mike-Alvarado-RD
SG: Ant-DD-TSJ
SF: Naz-Sensabaugh-Minott
PF: Zion-Naz-JRE-Miller
C: Rudy-FA C-Garza
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1029 » by shrink » Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:35 am

cmoss84 wrote:
shrink wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:Would ya'll trade Julius and Jaden for Zion?

We can’t aggregate, and Zion makes more than Julius, so it’s illegal.

But if it was legal? Probably. It lowers our floor, but raises our ceiling.

I’d rather send DDV than Jaden, and re-sign NAW

Here's what I came up with on spotrac...

MN OUT: Julius, Jaden, NAW, '25 SRP (Utah)
MN IN: Zion, Sensabaugh, Alvarado, JRE
1st apron

I just wanted to point out to others, what cmoss did here, because it’s pretty cool.

I’m quick to say we can’t aggregate, because we are a second apron team, which is true. However, if we can do a deal where we outlay over $16 mil in salary, then we slide under that boundary, and are only a first apron team. As cmoss shows, it’s not impossible, just really hard to cut out $16 mil in salary midseason.

If people want to play with these deals, they will almost certainly require Randle and Jaden in the deal, and DET will need to be in there as the sole remaining team with significant cap space. But this path expands the number of potential trade targets in a Randle trade.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1030 » by winforlose » Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:44 am

shrink wrote:So, I saw a trade on the T&T board where a SAC fan did a three-way where he sent out an UNPROTECTED 2025 1st and a couple 2nds, and ended up with Jaden McDaniels (we got Cam Thomas). There’s many reasons we couldn’t make that trade, but I am extremely high on the 2025 Draft Class. I think there are superstars to be had in the first 3-5 picks, and front offices will be finding all stars between 6-20.

Here’s a scenario, just for fun.

Imagine Ant is out for the season, and Connelly dives full bore into acquiring 2025 draft capital. Ant, Rudy and Mike are off limits.

What trades can you make?

https://tankathon.com/

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed


1. Draft picks take years to develop if they develop at all. I don’t think Ant is patient enough to go from contending to ramping up if it wasn’t strictly necessary.

2. Finch is the wrong coach for player development. Ant has not improved end of game, Jaden’s offense hasn’t improved the way it should, Naz’s rebounding, Finch doesn’t play end of bench guys in garbage time appropriately, ect… I do not expect Dilly to progress under Finch or any prospect until he is replaced.

3. As you yourself said, we don’t have the luxury of playing young guys minutes to develop them. Even if we had 3 firsts in this draft with one being late lotto and the other 2 being mid to late teens or early twenties, we would struggle to find rotation spots for them.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1031 » by FrenchMinnyFan » Wed Jan 15, 2025 7:58 am

Does Ingram for Randle works? busy at office no time to check the money side sorry.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1032 » by winforlose » Wed Jan 15, 2025 8:15 am

FrenchMinnyFan wrote:Does Ingram for Randle works? busy at office no time to check the money side sorry.


No, Bi is 3 million more, thus we cannot acquire him.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1033 » by minimus » Wed Jan 15, 2025 8:48 am

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1034 » by TimberKat » Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:50 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
TimberKat wrote:
Domejandro wrote:Minnesota can’t trade for those players for both salary cap and value-related reasons.

I think Fox and Randle's salary actually matches but don't know why SAC would do that. If we kept Towns, we could had done a Towns for Durant. I think you can also dump Randle to DET or CHA for picks and minimum salary coming back. After that, gut basically everyone for one of them. So, you only have Ant, X, and Gobert.


They do not. Fox makes 1,774,420.00 more than Randle. A "small" amount, but enough to make it invalid under the 2nd apron.

In fact there is no trade we can make for Fox without involving other teams first. Ant is our only tradable contract that is bigger than Fox's. But its just big enough to make it not work for SAC. Result:

Sacramento is Hard-Capped & over the 1st Apron by $297,861.

We also could not have done Towns for Durant, as KD makes more than KAT and both teams were over the 2nd apron.

I think 2nd apron is 110% match for single player. I am not sure it's combined with cannot take back more salary. Because if it is hard line, there is no need for the 110% and single player rule. Just simply cannot exceed current salary when completed with roster requirements would had covered everything.
Here is an Sporting News article on the same subject: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/minnesota-timberwolves/news/timberwolves-proposed-trade-sends-julius-randle-kings-exchange-163-million-all-star/0d270aa819042390dae473cb
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1035 » by Norseman79 » Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:10 pm

Are we undervaluing Julius Randle? I've seen some of the trades that people are throwing out there for him. And I can't believe we would even think twice if any of them were offered. In particular there was one about the Spurs sending three players back. I still think he needs to get traded I'm just wondering if he's worth more than many of us thought.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1036 » by shrink » Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:54 pm

winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:So, I saw a trade on the T&T board where a SAC fan did a three-way where he sent out an UNPROTECTED 2025 1st and a couple 2nds, and ended up with Jaden McDaniels (we got Cam Thomas). There’s many reasons we couldn’t make that trade, but I am extremely high on the 2025 Draft Class. I think there are superstars to be had in the first 3-5 picks, and front offices will be finding all stars between 6-20.

Here’s a scenario, just for fun.

Imagine Ant is out for the season, and Connelly dives full bore into acquiring 2025 draft capital. Ant, Rudy and Mike are off limits.

What trades can you make?

https://tankathon.com/

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed


1. Draft picks take years to develop if they develop at all. I don’t think Ant is patient enough to go from contending to ramping up if it wasn’t strictly necessary.

2. Finch is the wrong coach for player development. Ant has not improved end of game, Jaden’s offense hasn’t improved the way it should, Naz’s rebounding, Finch doesn’t play end of bench guys in garbage time appropriately, ect… I do not expect Dilly to progress under Finch or any prospect until he is replaced.

3. As you yourself said, we don’t have the luxury of playing young guys minutes to develop them. Even if we had 3 firsts in this draft with one being late lotto and the other 2 being mid to late teens or early twenties, we would struggle to find rotation spots for them.

Fun killer
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1037 » by winforlose » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:02 pm

shrink wrote:
winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:So, I saw a trade on the T&T board where a SAC fan did a three-way where he sent out an UNPROTECTED 2025 1st and a couple 2nds, and ended up with Jaden McDaniels (we got Cam Thomas). There’s many reasons we couldn’t make that trade, but I am extremely high on the 2025 Draft Class. I think there are superstars to be had in the first 3-5 picks, and front offices will be finding all stars between 6-20.

Here’s a scenario, just for fun.

Imagine Ant is out for the season, and Connelly dives full bore into acquiring 2025 draft capital. Ant, Rudy and Mike are off limits.

What trades can you make?

https://tankathon.com/

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed


1. Draft picks take years to develop if they develop at all. I don’t think Ant is patient enough to go from contending to ramping up if it wasn’t strictly necessary.

2. Finch is the wrong coach for player development. Ant has not improved end of game, Jaden’s offense hasn’t improved the way it should, Naz’s rebounding, Finch doesn’t play end of bench guys in garbage time appropriately, ect… I do not expect Dilly to progress under Finch or any prospect until he is replaced.

3. As you yourself said, we don’t have the luxury of playing young guys minutes to develop them. Even if we had 3 firsts in this draft with one being late lotto and the other 2 being mid to late teens or early twenties, we would struggle to find rotation spots for them.

Fun killer



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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1038 » by BlacJacMac » Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:41 pm

minimus wrote:
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1039 » by Domejandro » Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:28 pm

TimberKat wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
TimberKat wrote:I think Fox and Randle's salary actually matches but don't know why SAC would do that. If we kept Towns, we could had done a Towns for Durant. I think you can also dump Randle to DET or CHA for picks and minimum salary coming back. After that, gut basically everyone for one of them. So, you only have Ant, X, and Gobert.


They do not. Fox makes 1,774,420.00 more than Randle. A "small" amount, but enough to make it invalid under the 2nd apron.

In fact there is no trade we can make for Fox without involving other teams first. Ant is our only tradable contract that is bigger than Fox's. But its just big enough to make it not work for SAC. Result:

Sacramento is Hard-Capped & over the 1st Apron by $297,861.

We also could not have done Towns for Durant, as KD makes more than KAT and both teams were over the 2nd apron.

I think 2nd apron is 110% match for single player. I am not sure it's combined with cannot take back more salary. Because if it is hard line, there is no need for the 110% and single player rule. Just simply cannot exceed current salary when completed with roster requirements would had covered everything.
Here is an Sporting News article on the same subject: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/minnesota-timberwolves/news/timberwolves-proposed-trade-sends-julius-randle-kings-exchange-163-million-all-star/0d270aa819042390dae473cb

That article is not correct, Second Apron teams cannot take back more salary than they send out, nor can they aggregate.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#1040 » by Guest84 » Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:49 pm

I saw this trade in a random article: (It works according to Spotrac) Thoughts??

Julius Randle
Power Forward
$33,073,920

FOR

(Spurs)
Keldon Johnson
Small Forward
$19,000,000
+ 2 yr, $35,000,000

Tre Jones
Point Guard
$9,104,167
Expiring Contract

Malaki Branham
Shooting Guard
$3,217,920

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