Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[Worm Guts]

Thibs asking for Richardson, Bam and a first. Damn lol he crazy.

What is crazy about that? Nothing that I can see. He might accept Richardson, Olynyk and a first or Richardson, Whiteside and a first and include Dieng in the deal.

Richardson & Bam isn't realistic. The entire league knows this.

Think about that for a second.

[mplsfonz23]

If the Miami package isn't good enough to be accepted it doesn't matter if nobody else is bidding. The only way it is good enough is if Richardson is in it.

I'm trying to figure out why Richardson is such an important piece when Okogie may be able to give Minnesota nearly the same thing as him in a year or 2.

[quote]

And if he doesn't? Why is it bad to have two players like that. We may trade one down the line.

[Magoose]

Could you share your thought of these players? Bam, Richardson, Winslow an Whiteside?

sure, to save space for everybody i'll use spoilers

Bam

Spoiler:

He's got the potential to do it all. He's a freak of an athlete, can handle the ball, finish above the rim, and he has some range. We didn't see much of him shooting the ball last year but the coaches have been on him about being more aggressive. Great defending pick and rolls, struggled a little bit guarding bigger centers in the post. Don't let pedestrian rookie numbers mislead you, he has the highest ceiling of anyone on the team. T-Wolves fan can probably appreciate this: he's said on more than one occasion he wants to model his game after KG.

Richardson

Spoiler:

Just reiterating some of what is already known, he's an excellent defender. He hasn't added a whole lot to his frame since he's been in the league (similar to Wiggins) and for that reason I think he fits better as a two guard. He can guard 3's in spots but I think he's out of place there. Offensively he has the capability to shoot the ball, he used to drive a lot more as a rookie and finish above the rim, idk what happened. Can be streaky and not much of a creator. Like Bam and Winslow he's a great locker room guy, high character, none of the three have any diva tendencies. He's a good fit with KAT and Wiggins.

Winslow

Spoiler:

Outside of Bam my favorite young guy on the team. High basketball IQ, versatile defender, and is still far from reaching his ceiling offensively. He's not a volume shooter like Richardson but he's shown growth. I think besides Wade he's the next best natural passer on the team. He's played every position on the floor, which you could argue has been more detrimental than anything..I don't think he has gotten a fair shake in that regard. The consensus is he's leagues away from Richardson offensively but they posted virtually identical numbers post ASB including the playoffs. If you need someone with a dog mentality to go to battle with, he's who you want. Do yourself a favor if you havent watched already

Watch on YouTube

Whiteside

Spoiler:

Oh boy..the joy with Hassan is he can be as good as he wants to be. The frustration with Hassan is he can be as good as he wants to be. If he's not engaged getting touches offensively he'll check out. The problem is his post game imo is kind of weak. To his credit he has said he's worked on it over the summer, and he is visibly in better shape now than he was last year. He's an elite rim protector and a great rebounder. I like Hassan's talent, but he's got a tendency to pout when things dont go his way. He doesnt shoot it much but he has a soft touch, I'd be curious to see what he does with more volume but Spo hasnt historically encouraged that from him. He's a guy that has to be constantly motivated to do well.

great read, thanks a lot. Hassan sounds like a mixture of Andrew W and DMC from a mental standpoint. Not sure this the direction to go for us. We need more guys with high motor and agressiveness and range (and that is basically JB in a nutshell and why he should be worth more than just Whiteside and Waiters).

[Norseman79]

We need to get bigger. I was thinking about this again last night, this whole Miami trade has bothered me for one reason...Josh Richardson. If Wiggins was 6'9, 230 it would be great, but Wiggins is a 2, and so is Josh. I also think this is a factor in the paint with Kat, I would rather see him trim up and keep agility and play the 4 and small ball 5, then try to beef up to and match with physical centers. This is where I was relatively ok with Whiteside coming in. I get that this league is no longer the big physical bruisers it used to be, but it isn't small ball launching all the time either. It is big athletic players who can shoot. There will always be your Steph Curry's who don't fit that profile, but just look with Gortat, Gallinari and Harris did last night. Wiggins needs to be a 2, and we need more size in the front court...our Butler trade should address that.

[KGdaBom]

Richardson & Bam isn't realistic. The entire league knows this.

It's extremely realistic, but even if it isn't what's crazy about asking for them? You ask for more than you expect to get.

Hard to believe a year ago everyone believed Minnesota fleeced Chicago to get Butler by giving up LaVine, Dunn and #7 who was Markkenan but 47 wins later that same player they traded for isn't even worth Richardson and Bam and Butler even is open to resigning there it sounds like.

It shows what 13 years of not making the playoffs does to a fan base. We became accustomed to losing and when we finally win our fans look for something wrong with it.

[KGdaBom]

We need to get bigger. I was thinking about this again last night, this whole Miami trade has bothered me for one reason...Josh Richardson. If Wiggins was 6'9, 230 it would be great, but Wiggins is a 2, and so is Josh. I also think this is a factor in the paint with Kat, I would rather see him trim up and keep agility and play the 4 and small ball 5, then try to beef up to and match with physical centers. This is where I was relatively ok with Whiteside coming in. I get that this league is no longer the big physical bruisers it used to be, but it isn't small ball launching all the time either. It is big athletic players who can shoot. There will always be your Steph Curry's who don't fit that profile, but just look with Gortat, Gallinari and Harris did last night. Wiggins needs to be a 2, and we need more size in the front court...our Butler trade should address that.

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

[AirP.]

I'm trying to figure out why Richardson is such an important piece when Okogie may be able to give Minnesota nearly the same thing as him in a year or 2.

And if he doesn't? Why is it bad to have two players like that. We may trade one down the line.

Oh.. because you're giving up an all-nba player for him. I'm saying you should get a much better player, you won't get Butler's caliber but someone a little closer then what Richardson is.

[Norseman79]

Part of me wonders if Flip's plan was to have Lavine to develop as a PG and slide Wiggins to the SG....

[minimus]

Part of me wonders if Flip's plan was to have Lavine to develop as a PG and slide Wiggins to the SG....

Yeah, but LaVine is one of the best catch and shoot players in the league...

[Norseman79]

We need to get bigger. I was thinking about this again last night, this whole Miami trade has bothered me for one reason...Josh Richardson. If Wiggins was 6'9, 230 it would be great, but Wiggins is a 2, and so is Josh. I also think this is a factor in the paint with Kat, I would rather see him trim up and keep agility and play the 4 and small ball 5, then try to beef up to and match with physical centers. This is where I was relatively ok with Whiteside coming in. I get that this league is no longer the big physical bruisers it used to be, but it isn't small ball launching all the time either. It is big athletic players who can shoot. There will always be your Steph Curry's who don't fit that profile, but just look with Gortat, Gallinari and Harris did last night. Wiggins needs to be a 2, and we need more size in the front court...our Butler trade should address that.

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Butler did report to training camp but was excused from the early practice sessions as he recovered from offseason surgery on his right wrist. – via 1500 ESPN

Butler could return as soon as next week, but hasn’t made a decision and is still experiencing soreness in his surgically repaired right wrist, league sources said. - via ESPN

Timberwolves executives told other interested teams in the past 24 hours that they didn’t have any offers that met the franchise’s criteria to honor Butler’s trade request and planned to hold on to him until a deal met their requirements, league sources said.

Butler hasn't made a final decision on when he'll join the Wolves to practice, but he doesn't plan to miss regular season games if he's healthy.

[Norseman79]

Part of me wonders if Flip's plan was to have Lavine to develop as a PG and slide Wiggins to the SG....

Yeah, but LaVine is one of the best catch and shoot players in the league...

Yup, and with Wiggins ability to attack the basket, perhaps Flip envisioned more drive and dish opportunities or post and kick-outs from Wiggs to Lavine. Obviously this would have required Wiggins to become a better passer, but Flip was way more about developing these kids than Thibs has ever been.

[KGdaBom]

We need to get bigger. I was thinking about this again last night, this whole Miami trade has bothered me for one reason...Josh Richardson. If Wiggins was 6'9, 230 it would be great, but Wiggins is a 2, and so is Josh. I also think this is a factor in the paint with Kat, I would rather see him trim up and keep agility and play the 4 and small ball 5, then try to beef up to and match with physical centers. This is where I was relatively ok with Whiteside coming in. I get that this league is no longer the big physical bruisers it used to be, but it isn't small ball launching all the time either. It is big athletic players who can shoot. There will always be your Steph Curry's who don't fit that profile, but just look with Gortat, Gallinari and Harris did last night. Wiggins needs to be a 2, and we need more size in the front court...our Butler trade should address that.

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

Being a good defender matters more than the size of the defender. Not saying size doesn't matter, but defensive desire and skill matter more. Harris is a PF who can play some SF. Durant nobody is guarding. Dray's best position is center.

[Norseman79]

Part of me wonders if Flip's plan was to have Lavine to develop as a PG and slide Wiggins to the SG....

Yeah, but LaVine is one of the best catch and shoot players in the league...

Yup, and with Wiggins ability to attack the basket, perhaps Flip envisioned more drive and dish opportunities or post and kick-outs from Wiggs to Lavine. Obviously this would have required Wiggins to become a better passer, but Flip was way more about developing these kids than Thibs has ever been.

My apologies, not the correct thread for this.

[Norseman79]

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

Being a good defender matters more than the size of the defender. Not saying size doesn't matter, but defensive desire and skill matter more. Harris is a PF who can play some SF. Durant nobody is guarding. Dray's best position is center.

Agree to disagree, not saying that effort and knowledge do not matter, but when playing against players with superior size and skill...size is incredibly detrimental. I wasn't referring to put a large athlete with zero desire to play defense. What I am saying is matching up is critical, no matter what your desire is, if you are a boy guarding a man, you lose each time.

[KGdaBom]

Butler did report to training camp but was excused from the early practice sessions as he recovered from offseason surgery on his right wrist. – via 1500 ESPN

Butler could return as soon as next week, but hasn’t made a decision and is still experiencing soreness in his surgically repaired right wrist, league sources said. - via ESPN

Timberwolves executives told other interested teams in the past 24 hours that they didn’t have any offers that met the franchise’s criteria to honor Butler’s trade request and planned to hold on to him until a deal met their requirements, league sources said.

Good for you Thibs. It's a trade request and nothing more. Butler is probably ready to play right now. I wonder what the teams options are if he is trying to milk the injury.

[KGdaBom]

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

Being a good defender matters more than the size of the defender. Not saying size doesn't matter, but defensive desire and skill matter more. Harris is a PF who can play some SF. Durant nobody is guarding. Dray's best position is center.

Agree to disagree, not saying that effort and knowledge do not matter, but when playing against players with superior size and skill...size is incredibly detrimental. I wasn't referring to put a large athlete with zero desire to play defense. What I am saying is matching up is critical, no matter what your desire is, if you are a boy guarding a man, you lose each time.

So with Richardson being smaller and quicker a mismatch occurs both ways. If not why doesn't every team put an all bigs lineup on the court? They are bigger and stronger and win each time or not? I get where you are coming from, but I believe Okogie and Richardson will do just fine playing the SF position. ESPN lists Richardson as a SF.

[AirP.]

For what it's worth, I was listening to a podcast of Miami reporters who talk to Minnesota's reporters. They didn't bring up Towns asking for Butler to be moved for him to sign, I still don't think he did ask that but they did say they were told by a Minnesota reporter that Towns did ask for Thibodeau to be removed. If this is true(not sure why they'd lie, they made no big deal of it), then why would Butler want to sign long term(and at or near the max) with Minnesota if his coach is on the chopping block? This might be why Thibs hasn't traded him trying to convince him that he's not going anywhere but I'm not convinced of that either at this point.

To Glen Taylor's credit(unless this about money owed to Thibs), he hasn't given in to the player unless he said something to the effect of give Thibs 1 more year and if you still want him out he'll be out. This may also be why Thibs has "changed" somewhat during the preseason games, like sitting, not yelling as much for the greater good of the team(keeping Towns happy to not get fired which might be leading to Butler wanting out). I don't think Thibs would change for an owner because they hired him knowing who he was, for a "franchise level" player, he knows the player is more important than him.

[Sign5]

We need to get bigger. I was thinking about this again last night, this whole Miami trade has bothered me for one reason...Josh Richardson. If Wiggins was 6'9, 230 it would be great, but Wiggins is a 2, and so is Josh. I also think this is a factor in the paint with Kat, I would rather see him trim up and keep agility and play the 4 and small ball 5, then try to beef up to and match with physical centers. This is where I was relatively ok with Whiteside coming in. I get that this league is no longer the big physical bruisers it used to be, but it isn't small ball launching all the time either. It is big athletic players who can shoot. There will always be your Steph Curry's who don't fit that profile, but just look with Gortat, Gallinari and Harris did last night. Wiggins needs to be a 2, and we need more size in the front court...our Butler trade should address that.

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

False. Rich can play 1-3 effectively and most of his minutes were at the 3 last year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/richajo01/lineups/2018

[mplsfonz23]

I'm trying to figure out why Richardson is such an important piece when Okogie may be able to give Minnesota nearly the same thing as him in a year or 2.

And if he doesn't? Why is it bad to have two players like that. We may trade one down the line.

Oh.. because you're giving up an all-nba player for him. I'm saying you should get a much better player, you won't get Butler's caliber but someone a little closer then what Richardson is.

Yeah, but you say Okogie MAY be able to give us the same in 2-3 years. Josh gives us that now. Plus, we haven't had much luck with draftee's.