Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[winforlose]

PHI would have to give up a lot more than a 2nd round pick to get team-first Bradley Beal for team-last Simmons.

I wouldn’t pay this much for Simmons. I’d rather have Beal, if we are paying for him anyway.

Good point on 76ers needing to give up more…but I don’t think a whole lot more.

Full strength Simmons is a much better fit for Twolves than Beal…even though on open market Beal is of greater value.

I’m hoping Wizards are looking to blow it up in next 7 days because if they are I think Twolves are back in it in regards to acquiring Simmons.

Gupta is a temp GM/POBO and with an ownership change imminent it seems unlikely he stays. He wants to hit a home run to keep his job. That said, paying a premium for any player isn’t a home run. His best case scenario would be Simmons lives up to expectations and he is the guy who made a decent trade (terrible if MCD develops into any kind of 3&D value player.) If Simmons doesn’t play well Gupta is the guy who killed the Wolves franchise and never gets a high level job ever again. Your asking price is around 3 times higher than the value you are returning. You need more reasonable goals.

Edit to add context: Your post suggests 2 unprotected firsts, that is a very different thing from a top 8, top 10, top 14 protected first. The value goes significantly up every time you remove a protection level. Second, Beverly is an essential part of our team, losing his leadership for a player who is a locker room problem in Simmons would be very very bad for the wolves. Third, MCD is a rising star who has shown flashes of elite offense to go along with a potential first team all defense. MCD has the potential to become similar to or better than Simmons by himself. Beasley is trade bait that could still bring in value and on his good nights can still score 20-30 ppg. Finally, Reid is a solid up and comer who could be starting C on a half dozen teams or more. Giving all of that up for any single player is always a huge risk, when that player has mental health issues and hasn’t played since last years playoffs, that is even more dangerous. We want to make a serious play off runs giving up four rotation players including a starter for one player is counterproductive.

[Howard Cosell]

McDaniel is not going to be good as Simmons.

If you want a piece that gives you a shot at World Championship window for at least next 3 years you better dam will need to give up value.

Now is the time to strike…by getting a defensive presence on this team without giving up any of your core.

Simmons has 4 years left on his contract. He will be playing with his closest friends..people who will respect him right off the bat on day 1.

Simmons is more valuable to Minnesota that any other team. If Beal becomes available to 76ers you better believe Twolves will do all they can in a 3 team scenario to nab Simmons…and they should. Wizards will want future draft picks and at least 1 young player who can play, plus expiring contract.

If Wizards do decide to blow it up…I would advise you all to buckle up.

[winforlose]

McDaniel is not going to be good as Simmons.

If you want a piece that gives you a shot at World Championship window for at least next 3 years you better dam will need to give up value.

Now is the time to strike…by getting a defensive presence on this team without giving up any of your core.

Simmons has 4 years left on his contract. He will be playing with his closest friends..people who will respect him right off the bat on day 1.

Simmons is more valuable to Minnesota that any other team. If Beal becomes available to 76ers you better believe Twolves will do all they can in a 3 team scenario to nab Simmons…and they should. Wizards will want future draft picks and at least 1 young player who can play, plus expiring contract.

If Wizards do decide to blow it up…I would advise you all to buckle up.

Let’s look at the team after your trade.

Starters: Simmons, Dlo, Ant, V8, KAT. This lineup has two non shooters, so the paint is packed, and we are forced to shoot a lot more 3s and long 2s.

Backups: JMAC, Nowell, JO, Prince, Knight. This lineup is as small ball as you get. JMAC despite having a few good games was unplayable at the beginning of the year. JO has been struggling with offense all year. Nowell and Prince are your only 3 point shooters and they are both inconsistent. The lineup is paper thin, and if Simmons mental health issues are real he might not be ready to play this year. Oh, and even if he is mentally well and does play, what happens when he sprains an ankle or hurts a hand. You are giving up 4 rotation players for 1 and gain no cap space in the bargain. In fact we are mandated to carry 13 which means we need to go into the tax just to make this work.

As for opening a championship window, what are you talking about? Champions get great bench production and take the pressure of the starters. You just gave away literally half of our bench rotation. That unit has 2 players in JO and JMAC who cannot be counted on for scoring and a third in a Knight who could not get a main roster contract. Ant has bad Knees, Dlo has missed more than 10 games this year, Simmons hasn’t played yet and KAT falls more than any big in the NBA. What in gods name makes you think Simmons is the missing link that he can overcome everything I just mentioned?

[Mattya]

I get all of the reasons why people don't want Simmons. But I can't help but watch the ways Vanderbilt is flourishing and think that Simmons would be deployed in a similar fashion here. The offensive role, the hustle plays, the defensive versatility both inside and outside. It would all be very familiar.

Price point and current chemistry are where I start getting hesitant somewhat, but I don't understand the people who believe he would be a bad fit on the court. In my mind, he's the prototypical fit for the things we want right now.

That being said, I used to believe we needed a jolt like this in order to make a big jump in the standings outside of the play-in. The way the group is playing makes be believe that could no longer be the case. But could a move like this still bump up the team's ceiling and is the price point worth it? That's what the front office has to decide for any move on the table.

I agree that what Vando has shown makes it very obvious that Simmons would have been a great fit, but I also am not crazy about breaking up the chemistry after what the team has shown so far. I also think having Simmons and Vando on the court would not work on offense. Also, Vando has out in the work and while I don’t buy a lot of the narrative around Simmons, Vando seems to have the never give up grit to him that I don’t think Simmons has.

In a vacuum maybe, but in practice it simply doesn’t work that way. For example, Simmons and V8 are redundant. They have similar strengths and weaknesses, but where players like KAT and Jokic would thrive together guys like Simmons and V8 would kill their teams offense. We have already seen the defensive schemes that clog the lane and force us to shoot 3s because of V8 and we just recently made enough adjustments to get V8 scoring more. Even if we had Simmons from the beginning, do you honestly think he outpaces V8 by that much in terms of production?

Also, the issue was always the cost of acquisition and opportunity cost of Simmons. V8 is on a team friendly deal and was signed with bird rights. Simmons would have cost a huge amount of depth and prevented us from brining in any kind of reasonable replacements. If Simmons demands a buyout and is willing to come here for 5 to 7 mil I would thrilled to add him.

Isn’t this what I just said?

[winforlose]

I agree that what Vando has shown makes it very obvious that Simmons would have been a great fit, but I also am not crazy about breaking up the chemistry after what the team has shown so far. I also think having Simmons and Vando on the court would not work on offense. Also, Vando has out in the work and while I don’t buy a lot of the narrative around Simmons, Vando seems to have the never give up grit to him that I don’t think Simmons has.

In a vacuum maybe, but in practice it simply doesn’t work that way. For example, Simmons and V8 are redundant. They have similar strengths and weaknesses, but where players like KAT and Jokic would thrive together guys like Simmons and V8 would kill their teams offense. We have already seen the defensive schemes that clog the lane and force us to shoot 3s because of V8 and we just recently made enough adjustments to get V8 scoring more. Even if we had Simmons from the beginning, do you honestly think he outpaces V8 by that much in terms of production?

Also, the issue was always the cost of acquisition and opportunity cost of Simmons. V8 is on a team friendly deal and was signed with bird rights. Simmons would have cost a huge amount of depth and prevented us from brining in any kind of reasonable replacements. If Simmons demands a buyout and is willing to come here for 5 to 7 mil I would thrilled to add him.

Isn’t this what I just said?

You said “ I agree that what Vando has shown makes it very obvious that Simmons would have been a great fit.” Part of my answer agreed with you but I also disputed your fit comments and explained why.

[Howard Cosell]

Knight is ready to play NBA basketball. Get him some playing time this season and watch him level up for next season. Prince is our second highest 3 point shooter right now on the team. Nowell is giving Twolves good offense off the bench.

Minnesota can’t get top players in free agency. The drafts for the following years will be difficult to add a great piece. By getting Simmons we will be considered among the favorites in the West for next few years and we will be attractive to some Vets on the minimum looking for rings.

Twolves have to give up something to get something…sorry guys but this is how it goes. If Beal becomes available to 76ers the Twolves have to do all they can to be the 3rd team. Wizards don’t want Simmons….but they will want future assets and at least 1 good young player and expiring contract. Twolves can provide all of that to Wizards.

Simmons playing along side ANT, Dlo and Towns is formidable. It’s a championship window staring us in the face.

Go for it!!!

To not go for it because you are scared the bench will not have enough offense is lunacy. Going forward the roster won’t be static…but it will have a championship core. When is the last time we had a championship core?

[winforlose]

Knight is ready to play NBA basketball. Get him some playing time this season and watch him level up for next season. Prince is our second highest 3 point shooter right now on the team. Nowell is giving Twolves good offense off the bench.

Minnesota can’t get top players in free agency. The drafts for the following years will be difficult to add a great piece. By getting Simmons we will be considered among the favorites in the West for next few years and we will be attractive to some Vets on the minimum looking for rings.

Twolves have to give up something to get something…sorry guys but this is how it goes. If Beal becomes available to 76ers the Twolves have to do all they can to be the 3rd team. Wizards don’t want Simmons….but they will want future assets and at least 1 good young player and expiring contract. Twolves can provide all of that to Wizards.

Simmons playing along side ANT, Dlo and Towns is formidable. It’s a championship window staring us in the face.

Go for it!!!

To not go for it because you are scared the bench will not have enough offense is lunacy. Going forward the roster won’t be static…but it will have a championship core. When is the last time we had a championship core?

You barely addressed anything I said. You didn’t mention the poor fit with V8 and Simmons. You didn’t mention the lack of scoring on the second unit, or the lack of size. FFS every single player 1-5 on the second unit is undersized. We are already the worst defensive rebounding team in the league, you think getting significantly smaller will improve that? You talk about adding vet minimum ring chasers, plenty of other teams will be doing the same in bigger cities with more perks like endorsements and warm weather. We will need to pay Dlo and KAT and Nowell, and JO and eventually Ant all while having Simmons max strapped to our back. We have no picks and trade bait with which to improve and only the MLE to maneuver.

You say we are the presumptive champs, why? One injury to KAT or Ant and now we lack shooting and scoring. Your entire theory is based on the premise that Simmons by himself gives you more than Beasley, Beverly, MCD, and Reid. Even if your right that Knight can replace Reid (which I very much doubt,) you have no real replacement for the defense MCD gives you nor the spacing Beasley gives you.

I agree you give value to get value, but you have Simmons so far above his actual value it’s like saying I will give you four nice houses on valuable land for one run down mansion that if built back up might appreciate to be as valuable as two or three of the houses. Oh and I need a bunch of extra assets like cars and stocks to make the deal. There is over paying then there is what you are talking about. We could buy just about any star in the league for that price and many of them are much better fits than Simmons.

[KGdaBom]

Price point and current chemistry are where I start getting hesitant somewhat, but I don't understand the people who believe he would be a bad fit on the court. In my mind, he's the prototypical fit for the things we want right now..

Yes, the problem isn’t on the defensive end - it’s the offense.

1. Simmons has said he wants the ball in his hands, and may not be happy if he doesn’t get it.

2. Simmons believes he’s a star, and will want to average 20 PPG. I don’t think we have the shots.

3. Simmons has said he wants to be the star of a team, constructed around him.

Now, all of these things could rub other Timberwolves the wrong way, and hurt our team chemistry. But an even bigger concern is, what does Simmons do if he doesn’t get his way? The other Timberwolves won’t just ignore their contract if things get frustrating, but if Simmoms chooses again not to play, the team is done.

We should appreciate Vando for what he is, particularly his unselfishness and team-first mentality.

I'd have to go back and find these comments, but I think these have been taken out of context. Simmons was a star in Philadelphia and never averaged above 17 ppg. What he wants is to be respected and appreciated.

Exactly Klomp. I don't think Simmons cares much at all about how much he scores. He wants the ball because handling the ball is what he does best. I don't believe he thinks he has to be the one and only Man A La Kobe Bryant.

[thinktank]

Knight is ready to play NBA basketball. Get him some playing time this season and watch him level up for next season. Prince is our second highest 3 point shooter right now on the team. Nowell is giving Twolves good offense off the bench.

Minnesota can’t get top players in free agency. The drafts for the following years will be difficult to add a great piece. By getting Simmons we will be considered among the favorites in the West for next few years and we will be attractive to some Vets on the minimum looking for rings.

Twolves have to give up something to get something…sorry guys but this is how it goes. If Beal becomes available to 76ers the Twolves have to do all they can to be the 3rd team. Wizards don’t want Simmons….but they will want future assets and at least 1 good young player and expiring contract. Twolves can provide all of that to Wizards.

Simmons playing along side ANT, Dlo and Towns is formidable. It’s a championship window staring us in the face.

Go for it!!!

To not go for it because you are scared the bench will not have enough offense is lunacy. Going forward the roster won’t be static…but it will have a championship core. When is the last time we had a championship core?

Knight does absolutely nothing to make me feel good about trading McD and others for Simmons.

[Howard Cosell]

Knight is ready to play NBA basketball. Get him some playing time this season and watch him level up for next season. Prince is our second highest 3 point shooter right now on the team. Nowell is giving Twolves good offense off the bench.

Minnesota can’t get top players in free agency. The drafts for the following years will be difficult to add a great piece. By getting Simmons we will be considered among the favorites in the West for next few years and we will be attractive to some Vets on the minimum looking for rings.

Twolves have to give up something to get something…sorry guys but this is how it goes. If Beal becomes available to 76ers the Twolves have to do all they can to be the 3rd team. Wizards don’t want Simmons….but they will want future assets and at least 1 good young player and expiring contract. Twolves can provide all of that to Wizards.

Simmons playing along side ANT, Dlo and Towns is formidable. It’s a championship window staring us in the face.

Go for it!!!

To not go for it because you are scared the bench will not have enough offense is lunacy. Going forward the roster won’t be static…but it will have a championship core. When is the last time we had a championship core?

You barely addressed anything I said. You didn’t mention the poor fit with V8 and Simmons. You didn’t mention the lack of scoring on the second unit, or the lack of size. FFS every single player 1-5 on the second unit is undersized. We are already the worst defensive rebounding team in the league, you think getting significantly smaller will improve that? You talk about adding vet minimum ring chasers, plenty of other teams will be doing the same in bigger cities with more perks like endorsements and warm weather. We will need to pay Dlo and KAT and Nowell, and JO and eventually Ant all while having Simmons max strapped to our back. We have no picks and trade bait with which to improve and only the MLE to maneuver.

You say we are the presumptive champs, why? One injury to KAT or Ant and now we lack shooting and scoring. Your entire theory is based on the premise that Simmons by himself gives you more than Beasley, Beverly, MCD, and Reid. Even if your right that Knight can replace Reid (which I very much doubt,) you have no real replacement for the defense MCD gives you nor the spacing Beasley gives you.

I agree you give value to get value, but you have Simmons so far above his actual value it’s like saying I will give you four nice houses on valuable land for one run down mansion that if built back up might appreciate to be as valuable as two or three of the houses. Oh and I need a bunch of extra assets like cars and stocks to make the deal. There is over paying then there is what you are talking about. We could buy just about any star in the league for that price and many of them are much better fits than Simmons.

McDaniel, Reid and 2 FRP’s would be the price.

Sorry, that is not overpaying for Simmons.

Beverly is the expiring contract which Wizards would want and a player we won’t resign.

Twolves have 11th best offense in league with Beasley playing like crap.

Injuries can always happen…benches are never perfect.

This is our time to strike.

Would Wizards want the Twolves deal or a guy like Celtics’s Brown in a 3 team deal? This is the question at hand.

[Howard Cosell]

I don’t have any problems with Vando and Simmons starting the game together just like no one has issues with Vando and McDaniel starting together.

Twolves have very unique offense players…high skill.

Now it’s time to add high skill defensive player who will get us into championship window for next handful of years…Simmons.

Simmons driving the lane to kick out to Dlo, Towns, Ant…or finding Vando cutting to the rim….yeah it works.

[winforlose]

Knight is ready to play NBA basketball. Get him some playing time this season and watch him level up for next season. Prince is our second highest 3 point shooter right now on the team. Nowell is giving Twolves good offense off the bench.

Minnesota can’t get top players in free agency. The drafts for the following years will be difficult to add a great piece. By getting Simmons we will be considered among the favorites in the West for next few years and we will be attractive to some Vets on the minimum looking for rings.

Twolves have to give up something to get something…sorry guys but this is how it goes. If Beal becomes available to 76ers the Twolves have to do all they can to be the 3rd team. Wizards don’t want Simmons….but they will want future assets and at least 1 good young player and expiring contract. Twolves can provide all of that to Wizards.

Simmons playing along side ANT, Dlo and Towns is formidable. It’s a championship window staring us in the face.

Go for it!!!

To not go for it because you are scared the bench will not have enough offense is lunacy. Going forward the roster won’t be static…but it will have a championship core. When is the last time we had a championship core?

You barely addressed anything I said. You didn’t mention the poor fit with V8 and Simmons. You didn’t mention the lack of scoring on the second unit, or the lack of size. FFS every single player 1-5 on the second unit is undersized. We are already the worst defensive rebounding team in the league, you think getting significantly smaller will improve that? You talk about adding vet minimum ring chasers, plenty of other teams will be doing the same in bigger cities with more perks like endorsements and warm weather. We will need to pay Dlo and KAT and Nowell, and JO and eventually Ant all while having Simmons max strapped to our back. We have no picks and trade bait with which to improve and only the MLE to maneuver.

You say we are the presumptive champs, why? One injury to KAT or Ant and now we lack shooting and scoring. Your entire theory is based on the premise that Simmons by himself gives you more than Beasley, Beverly, MCD, and Reid. Even if your right that Knight can replace Reid (which I very much doubt,) you have no real replacement for the defense MCD gives you nor the spacing Beasley gives you.

I agree you give value to get value, but you have Simmons so far above his actual value it’s like saying I will give you four nice houses on valuable land for one run down mansion that if built back up might appreciate to be as valuable as two or three of the houses. Oh and I need a bunch of extra assets like cars and stocks to make the deal. There is over paying then there is what you are talking about. We could buy just about any star in the league for that price and many of them are much better fits than Simmons.

McDaniel, Reid and 2 FRP’s would be the price.

Sorry, that is not overpaying for Simmons.

Beverly is the expiring contract which Wizards would want and a player we won’t resign.

Twolves have 11th best offense in league with Beasley playing like crap.

Injuries can always happen…benches are never perfect.

This is our time to strike.

Would Wizards want the Twolves deal or a guy like Celtics’s Brown in a 3 team deal? This is the question at hand.

Okay, normally I would try to accept your premise for the purpose of discussion, but it is factually wrong, so I cannot.

The price is the opportunity cost of any deal involving any of those four players plus the 2 unprotected picks. You say Bev is leaving, you don’t know that. Likewise you don’t know that we cannot get alternative value for Bev. Beasley already has had offers on the table from Boston and probably gets additional interest elsewhere.

Another huge point, we are 7th in the west and in a position to strike at the 5 seed. Losing Bev is losing a starter who gives you great defense and leadership in the lockeroom. Even if he leaves during the off season we would still have him this season. Beasley is still capable of going off and winning games. When he and the big 3 play well we are very dangerous. You can say Bealsey sucks, but replacing him with JO isn’t going to help our bench scoring. You mentioned above you hope Knight is ready for the NBA, but you don’t know. It is pure speculation and guess work. If he isn’t we have no depth behind Towns and no money to go get more. As for MCD, he just had 22 points two games ago. MCD, Bev, and V8 are our defensive core with JO as the point of attack in a pinch bench reserve. You are talking about giving away two excellent defenders to acquire one. By any math our bench will give up more points without MCD. Are you really saying that Simmons defense is sooo good that he can make up for the loss of two of our best defenders?

Any way you slice it you are gutting the bench for a marginal upgrade at PG who doesn’t really fit with our PF. You can say Beasley and Beverly don’t matter but they clearly do. Beverly sets the defensive tone and comes up huge for us, and Beasley spaces the floor and occasionally takes over games. Your price tag is way to high and that’s before you even talk about two unprotected firsts.

[KGdaBom]

I get both sides on the Simmons question. However, I think the positive arguments tend to be more evidence based regarding what he does on the court and negative ones are making more assumptions about his character. I hated what Jimmy Butler did in leaving the Wolves. I consider him a POS for that. Simmons is doing similar things, but to me his behavior is somewhat justified due to how the 76ers treated him.

[Baseline81]

Okay, normally I would try to accept your premise for the purpose of discussion, but it is factually wrong, so I cannot.

The price is the opportunity cost of any deal involving any of those four players plus the 2 unprotected picks. You say Bev is leaving, you don’t know that. Likewise you don’t know that we cannot get alternative value for Bev. Beasley already has had offers on the table from Boston and probably gets additional interest elsewhere.

Another huge point, we are 7th in the west and in a position to strike at the 5 seed. Losing Bev is losing a starter who gives you great defense and leadership in the lockeroom. Even if he leaves during the off season we would still have him this season. Beasley is still capable of going off and winning games. When he and the big 3 play well we are very dangerous. You can say Bealsey sucks, but replacing him with JO isn’t going to help our bench scoring. You mentioned above you hope Knight is ready for the NBA, but you don’t know. It is pure speculation and guess work. If he isn’t we have no depth behind Towns and no money to go get more. As for MCD, he just had 22 points two games ago. MCD, Bev, and V8 are our defensive core with JO as the point of attack in a pinch bench reserve. You are talking about giving away two excellent defenders to acquire one. By any math our bench will give up more points without MCD. Are you really saying that Simmons defense is sooo good that he can make up for the loss of two of our best defenders?

Any way you slice it you are gutting the bench for a marginal upgrade at PG who doesn’t really fit with our PF. You can say Beasley and Beverly don’t matter but they clearly do. Beverly sets the defensive tone and comes up huge for us, and Beasley spaces the floor and occasionally takes over games. Your price tag is way to high and that’s before you even talk about two unprotected firsts.

Not to mention the two first round picks Minnesota would be including in his proposed trade.

[KGdaBom]

Okay, normally I would try to accept your premise for the purpose of discussion, but it is factually wrong, so I cannot.

The price is the opportunity cost of any deal involving any of those four players plus the 2 unprotected picks. You say Bev is leaving, you don’t know that. Likewise you don’t know that we cannot get alternative value for Bev. Beasley already has had offers on the table from Boston and probably gets additional interest elsewhere.

Another huge point, we are 7th in the west and in a position to strike at the 5 seed. Losing Bev is losing a starter who gives you great defense and leadership in the lockeroom. Even if he leaves during the off season we would still have him this season. Beasley is still capable of going off and winning games. When he and the big 3 play well we are very dangerous. You can say Bealsey sucks, but replacing him with JO isn’t going to help our bench scoring. You mentioned above you hope Knight is ready for the NBA, but you don’t know. It is pure speculation and guess work. If he isn’t we have no depth behind Towns and no money to go get more. As for MCD, he just had 22 points two games ago. MCD, Bev, and V8 are our defensive core with JO as the point of attack in a pinch bench reserve. You are talking about giving away two excellent defenders to acquire one. By any math our bench will give up more points without MCD. Are you really saying that Simmons defense is sooo good that he can make up for the loss of two of our best defenders?

Any way you slice it you are gutting the bench for a marginal upgrade at PG who doesn’t really fit with our PF. You can say Beasley and Beverly don’t matter but they clearly do. Beverly sets the defensive tone and comes up huge for us, and Beasley spaces the floor and occasionally takes over games. Your price tag is way to high and that’s before you even talk about two unprotected firsts.

Not to mention the two first round picks Minnesota would be including in his proposed trade.

He may be offering too much, but not all draft picks are created equal. Compare KAT and Ant to the rest of the team. Where were they selected in the draft order? Where was Simmons selected in the draft order? And of course there is NBA all star starter Andrew Wiggins.

[Howard Cosell]

I’m not worried about the 2 FRP’s. They will be later in 1st round and if the grand experiment does not work with Simmons, Dlo, Towns and ANT the Twolves could easily trade off 2 of those players to get back future picks.

This is about next 3-4 years. How do you as a franchise enter into the championship window and how long is the window open?

With Simmons you have a championship window opened no less than next 3 years.

My worry on the trade is not if Twolves give too much value…is it the right value Wizards are looking for..IF they are willing to blow it up.

One of the advantages Twolves have going into the last week before trade deadline is we might be 1 of only maybe 2 Western Conference teams still pursuing Simmons at the time 76ers are in the hunt for top 2 seeds in Eastern conference with Embiid crushing it here in 2022.

[Klomp]

Let’s look at the team after your trade.

Starters: Simmons, Dlo, Ant, V8, KAT. This lineup has two non shooters, so the paint is packed, and we are forced to shoot a lot more 3s and long 2s.

Backups: JMAC, Nowell, JO, Prince, Knight. This lineup is as small ball as you get. JMAC despite having a few good games was unplayable at the beginning of the year. JO has been struggling with offense all year. Nowell and Prince are your only 3 point shooters and they are both inconsistent. The lineup is paper thin, and if Simmons mental health issues are real he might not be ready to play this year. Oh, and even if he is mentally well and does play, what happens when he sprains an ankle or hurts a hand. You are giving up 4 rotation players for 1 and gain no cap space in the bargain. In fact we are mandated to carry 13 which means we need to go into the tax just to make this work.

As for opening a championship window, what are you talking about? Champions get great bench production and take the pressure of the starters. You just gave away literally half of our bench rotation. That unit has 2 players in JO and JMAC who cannot be counted on for scoring and a third in a Knight who could not get a main roster contract. Ant has bad Knees, Dlo has missed more than 10 games this year, Simmons hasn’t played yet and KAT falls more than any big in the NBA. What in gods name makes you think Simmons is the missing link that he can overcome everything I just mentioned?

I'm sorry, but this is the frustrating thing that's happened on this forum or maybe with social media in general. There's no room for outside-the-box opinions that might be different. There's only one way to see things, and no willingness that there may be another way to do it.

I've never said that you must start both Simmons and Vanderbilt. No one has. So why is that your default way of thinking, other than to over-exaggerate your point?

Swap Vanderbilt and Prince. You solve the issue of two-non-shooters in the starting lineup and you alleviate the concern of the bench unit being too small. Those are literally your two most valid points here, and I just solved them without making a single transaction. Incredible!

Injuries and depth? Great! Every team has this concern no matter how deep they think their roster is. Look at Denver, arguably one of the deepest teams in the league. They lose a star player, they struggle. No amount of depth is going to fix losing star talent. What can help is assembling more star talent, so that when one star is out the others can pick up the slack. Especially when one of the stars has as versatile a skillset as Ben Simmons has. 1 through 5, Simmons can fill any role. Think that's not valuable when a Towns or Russell or Edwards goes down? And Vanderbilt doesn't exactly have the cleanest bill of health either, so is it smart to rely on him to carry the PF position here for the next 5-10 years?

You bring up cap space concerns, and in the immediate it makes sense when only looking at this year. But how about down the road? Reid won't be making under $2 million forever. In fact, he probably won't be beginning next season. McDaniels only has a couple more seasons where he is a bargain as well. So great, you're probably thinking to use all the cap space next summer and add a star. Only one problem. You do remember this is Minnesota, right? Stars don't want to come here in free agency. Not when bigger markets in warmer climates have the same amount of cap space. Look at how the Bulls created the top team in the East: traded for Vucevic, traded for DeRozan, traded for Ball, traded for LaVine.They didn't hold on to guys like Markkanen and Carter, draft picks or expiring contracts. They used them to get better and raise the ceiling for the franchise.

[winforlose]

Let’s look at the team after your trade.

Starters: Simmons, Dlo, Ant, V8, KAT. This lineup has two non shooters, so the paint is packed, and we are forced to shoot a lot more 3s and long 2s.

Backups: JMAC, Nowell, JO, Prince, Knight. This lineup is as small ball as you get. JMAC despite having a few good games was unplayable at the beginning of the year. JO has been struggling with offense all year. Nowell and Prince are your only 3 point shooters and they are both inconsistent. The lineup is paper thin, and if Simmons mental health issues are real he might not be ready to play this year. Oh, and even if he is mentally well and does play, what happens when he sprains an ankle or hurts a hand. You are giving up 4 rotation players for 1 and gain no cap space in the bargain. In fact we are mandated to carry 13 which means we need to go into the tax just to make this work.

As for opening a championship window, what are you talking about? Champions get great bench production and take the pressure of the starters. You just gave away literally half of our bench rotation. That unit has 2 players in JO and JMAC who cannot be counted on for scoring and a third in a Knight who could not get a main roster contract. Ant has bad Knees, Dlo has missed more than 10 games this year, Simmons hasn’t played yet and KAT falls more than any big in the NBA. What in gods name makes you think Simmons is the missing link that he can overcome everything I just mentioned?

I'm sorry, but this is the frustrating thing that's happened on this forum or maybe with social media in general. There's no room for outside-the-box opinions that might be different. There's only one way to see things, and no willingness that there may be another way to do it.

I've never said that you must start both Simmons and Vanderbilt. No one has. So why is that your default way of thinking, other than to over-exaggerate your point?

Swap Vanderbilt and Prince. You solve the issue of two-non-shooters in the starting lineup and you alleviate the concern of the bench unit being too small. Those are literally your two most valid points here, and I just solved them without making a single transaction. Incredible!

Injuries and depth? Great! Every team has this concern no matter how deep they think their roster is. Look at Denver, arguably one of the deepest teams in the league. They lose a star player, they struggle. No amount of depth is going to fix losing star talent. What can help is assembling more star talent, so that when one star is out the others can pick up the slack. Especially when one of the stars has as versatile a skillset as Ben Simmons has. 1 through 5, Simmons can fill any role. Think that's not valuable when a Towns or Russell or Edwards goes down? And Vanderbilt doesn't exactly have the cleanest bill of health either, so is it smart to rely on him to carry the PF position here for the next 5-10 years?

You bring up cap space concerns, and in the immediate it makes sense when only looking at this year. But how about down the road? Reid won't be making under $2 million forever. In fact, he probably won't be beginning next season. McDaniels only has a couple more seasons where he is a bargain as well. So great, you're probably thinking to use all the cap space next summer and add a star. Only one problem. You do remember this is Minnesota, right? Stars don't want to come here in free agency. Not when bigger markets in warmer climates have the same amount of cap space. Look at how the Bulls created the top team in the East: traded for Vucevic, traded for DeRozan, traded for Ball, traded for LaVine.They didn't hold on to guys like Markkanen and Carter, draft picks or expiring contracts. They used them to get better and raise the ceiling for the franchise.

Sorry Klomp didn’t mean to offend. Let’s go down your road for a minute. Your bench is JMAC, Nowell, JO, V8, Knight. Without Prince to balance the shooting now you have the death pair of JO and V8. If Knight cannot shoot 3s and JMAC remains inconsistent then Nowell is your only deep threat. Nowell is streaky and is shooting 35.2% on the season. Meanwhile the paint is packed, we are terribly outsized, and our bench scoring (one of our biggest strengths recently) becomes a serious problem. Also worth noting that V8 is one hell of a utility player. He creates possessions even when isn’t credited with the rebound or forcing the turnover (he stands people up, hurry’s them up, ect…) Now Prince has to replace Bevs production and Simmons must make up V8’s. V8 is averaging 7 points and 9 rebounds on the season. I think to be fair let’s bump that up to 10 points as Finch has reworked the offense and V8 is consistently scoring around there in the new space scheme. Even if Simmons gets you 20 points and 10 rebounds while maintaining the same level of defense, is it really worth a major bench downgrade and loss of locker room leadership to get 10 points and 1 rebound?

Right now the Wolves offense is top heavy. When Ant, or KAT, or Dlo are out we must rely on inconsistent scoring from the bench. Some games MCD drops 15-20 others he drops 5-8 or less. Prince came alive recently, but he hasn’t exactly proven he can be trusted to maintain his current shooting. Taking away 3 key bench pieces to upgrade one starter and downgrade another isn’t a net positive.

To your other point, I am not staying stand firm, I am saying let’s get a better player with a more complete game. Let’s get a Julius Randle, or Christian Wood and let’s pay less both in salary and assets to get them. Let’s get someone who helps in our 3 biggest areas of need without huge risk and obvious downside. For the record our biggest needs are defensive rebounding, 3 point shooting, and rim protection. Simmons doesn’t give you the 3 point shooting, pulls V8 out of the starting lineup which compromises rebounding, and is wasted as a big body in the paint.

Edit to include something I forgot: JMAC is still undersized at the PG, Nowell is still undersized at the SG, JO is still undersized at the SF, and Knight is still undersized at the C. The only player with average or above height and weight would be V8 and he is still quite thin and struggles against bigger PFs and Cs. Simply moving V8 to the bench and limiting his minutes doesn’t fix the size issue.

[Klomp]

Sorry Klomp didn’t mean to offend. Let’s go down your road for a minute. Your bench is JMAC, Nowell, JO, V8, Knight. Without Prince to balance the shooting now you have the death pair of JO and V8. If Knight cannot shoot 3s and JMAC remains inconsistent then Nowell is your only deep threat. Nowell is streaky and is shooting 35.2% on the season. Meanwhile the paint is packed, we are terribly outsized, and our bench scoring (one of our biggest strengths recently) becomes a serious problem. Also worth noting that V8 is one hell of a utility player. He creates possessions even when isn’t credited with the rebound or forcing the turnover (he stands people up, hurry’s them up, ect…) Now Prince has to replace Bevs production and Simmons must make up V8’s. V8 is averaging 7 points and 9 rebounds on the season. I think to be fair let’s bump that up to 10 points as Finch has reworked the offense and V8 is consistently scoring around there in the new space scheme. Even if Simmons gets you 20 points and 10 rebounds while maintaining the same level of defense, is it really worth a major bench downgrade and loss of locker room leadership to get 10 points and 1 rebound?

Right now the Wolves offense is top heavy. When Ant, or KAT, or Dlo are out we must rely on inconsistent scoring from the bench. Some games MCD drops 15-20 others he drops 5-8 or less. Prince came alive recently, but he hasn’t exactly proven he can be trusted to maintain his current shooting. Taking away 3 key bench pieces to upgrade one starter and downgrade another isn’t a net positive.

To your other point, I am not staying stand firm, I am saying let’s get a better player with a more complete game. Let’s get a Julius Randle, or Christian Wood and let’s pay less both in salary and assets to get them. Let’s get someone who helps in our 3 biggest areas of need without huge risk and obvious downside. For the record our biggest needs are defensive rebounding, 3 point shooting, and rim protection. Simmons doesn’t give you the 3 point shooting, pulls V8 out of the starting lineup which compromises rebounding, and is wasted as a big body in the paint.

Edit to include something I forgot: JMAC is still undersized at the PG, Nowell is still undersized at the SG, JO is still undersized at the SF, and Knight is still undersized at the C. The only player with average or above height and weight would be V8 and he is still quite thin and struggles against bigger PFs and Cs. Simply moving V8 to the bench and limiting his minutes doesn’t fix the size issue.

Teams rarely sub out all five starters at the same time. One of Russell, Edwards or Towns would help spacing concerns. As for inconsistent bench production, who better than a PG in a PF body to help facilitate the offense and get those less talented players the ball in their spots?

[winforlose]

Sorry Klomp didn’t mean to offend. Let’s go down your road for a minute. Your bench is JMAC, Nowell, JO, V8, Knight. Without Prince to balance the shooting now you have the death pair of JO and V8. If Knight cannot shoot 3s and JMAC remains inconsistent then Nowell is your only deep threat. Nowell is streaky and is shooting 35.2% on the season. Meanwhile the paint is packed, we are terribly outsized, and our bench scoring (one of our biggest strengths recently) becomes a serious problem. Also worth noting that V8 is one hell of a utility player. He creates possessions even when isn’t credited with the rebound or forcing the turnover (he stands people up, hurry’s them up, ect…) Now Prince has to replace Bevs production and Simmons must make up V8’s. V8 is averaging 7 points and 9 rebounds on the season. I think to be fair let’s bump that up to 10 points as Finch has reworked the offense and V8 is consistently scoring around there in the new space scheme. Even if Simmons gets you 20 points and 10 rebounds while maintaining the same level of defense, is it really worth a major bench downgrade and loss of locker room leadership to get 10 points and 1 rebound?

Right now the Wolves offense is top heavy. When Ant, or KAT, or Dlo are out we must rely on inconsistent scoring from the bench. Some games MCD drops 15-20 others he drops 5-8 or less. Prince came alive recently, but he hasn’t exactly proven he can be trusted to maintain his current shooting. Taking away 3 key bench pieces to upgrade one starter and downgrade another isn’t a net positive.

To your other point, I am not staying stand firm, I am saying let’s get a better player with a more complete game. Let’s get a Julius Randle, or Christian Wood and let’s pay less both in salary and assets to get them. Let’s get someone who helps in our 3 biggest areas of need without huge risk and obvious downside. For the record our biggest needs are defensive rebounding, 3 point shooting, and rim protection. Simmons doesn’t give you the 3 point shooting, pulls V8 out of the starting lineup which compromises rebounding, and is wasted as a big body in the paint.

Edit to include something I forgot: JMAC is still undersized at the PG, Nowell is still undersized at the SG, JO is still undersized at the SF, and Knight is still undersized at the C. The only player with average or above height and weight would be V8 and he is still quite thin and struggles against bigger PFs and Cs. Simply moving V8 to the bench and limiting his minutes doesn’t fix the size issue.

Teams rarely sub out all five starters at the same time. One of Russell, Edwards or Towns would help spacing concerns. As for inconsistent bench production, who better than a PG in a PF body to help facilitate the offense and get those less talented players the ball in their spots?

Dane Moore was just talking about this and it turns out the bench actually does better on its own without Dlo and maybe without KAT. Ant has the best net rating with the bench unit. Your not wrong that we can mix and match, but is what we are getting worth what we lose in cutting V8’s minutes in half or worse?

Simmons averaged 7.2 rebounds last year and 7.8 rebounds in 2019/20 season. We desperately need to get a guy who can play with V8 and KAT to get more boards, Simmons cannot even rebound as well as V8. As for playing Simmons with the bench unit, now you are further restricting V8 and he cannot play with JO either. Simmons doesn’t fit well with our other good defenders and that is a recipe for a drop in defensive standings. On the other hand guys like Pat Bev and MCD can play with anyone.