Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[AirP.]

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

False. Rich can play 1-3 effectively and most of his minutes were at the 3 last year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/richajo01/lineups/2018

82games.com also says most of his minutes by far was at the 3.
http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIA9.HTM#bypos

[Norseman79]

Being a good defender matters more than the size of the defender. Not saying size doesn't matter, but defensive desire and skill matter more. Harris is a PF who can play some SF. Durant nobody is guarding. Dray's best position is center.

Agree to disagree, not saying that effort and knowledge do not matter, but when playing against players with superior size and skill...size is incredibly detrimental. I wasn't referring to put a large athlete with zero desire to play defense. What I am saying is matching up is critical, no matter what your desire is, if you are a boy guarding a man, you lose each time.

So with Richardson being smaller and quicker a mismatch occurs both ways. If not why doesn't every team put an all bigs lineup on the court? They are bigger and stronger and win each time or not? I get where you are coming from, but I believe Okogie and Richardson will do just fine playing the SF position. ESPN lists Richardson as a SF.

Because, to be perfectly honest...it is easier for length to make up for quickness. Teams would put out all bigs if they had the skill to all play the positions. Simmons at PG for example. Most guys who are 6'9 do not have the handle to play point. Scary what Philly would look like if they had a legit sized SG. PG - Simmons, SG - ???? SF - Covington, PF - Saric, C - Embiid

[KGdaBom]

Richardson can play either the 2 or 3. No need to worry about that.

Richardson cannot play the 3, maybe in small ball lineups...but how would he have guarded Gallinari or Harris last night? How about Durant or Draymond? Josh is like 6'6 and 200lbs. Nice size for a 2, not for a 3.

False. Rich can play 1-3 effectively and most of his minutes were at the 3 last year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/richajo01/lineups/2018

Thank you.

[Norseman79]

The East also looks far different from the West at the SF position.

[AirP.]

And if he doesn't? Why is it bad to have two players like that. We may trade one down the line.

Oh.. because you're giving up an all-nba player for him. I'm saying you should get a much better player, you won't get Butler's caliber but someone a little closer then what Richardson is.

Yeah, but you say Okogie MAY be able to give us the same in 2-3 years. Josh gives us that now. Plus, we haven't had much luck with draftee's.

Downgrading from Butler to Josh Richardson does not make you a playoff team this year, next or even the next. I'm taking the next few years being a waste in consideration.

[KGdaBom]

Agree to disagree, not saying that effort and knowledge do not matter, but when playing against players with superior size and skill...size is incredibly detrimental. I wasn't referring to put a large athlete with zero desire to play defense. What I am saying is matching up is critical, no matter what your desire is, if you are a boy guarding a man, you lose each time.

So with Richardson being smaller and quicker a mismatch occurs both ways. If not why doesn't every team put an all bigs lineup on the court? They are bigger and stronger and win each time or not? I get where you are coming from, but I believe Okogie and Richardson will do just fine playing the SF position. ESPN lists Richardson as a SF.

Because, to be perfectly honest...it is easier for length to make up for quickness. Teams would put out all bigs if they had the skill to all play the positions. Simmons at PG for example. Most guys who are 6'9 do not have the handle to play point. Scary what Philly would look like if they had a legit sized SG. PG - Simmons, SG - ???? SF - Covington, PF - Saric, C - Embiid

Exactly. Skill tends to go down as size goes up. Just a much larger pool of players to pick from at 6'5" than 7'0". Bigger and skilled beats smaller and skilled almost every time. However, the smaller players usually have more skill.

[AirP.]

So with Richardson being smaller and quicker a mismatch occurs both ways. If not why doesn't every team put an all bigs lineup on the court? They are bigger and stronger and win each time or not? I get where you are coming from, but I believe Okogie and Richardson will do just fine playing the SF position. ESPN lists Richardson as a SF.

Because, to be perfectly honest...it is easier for length to make up for quickness. Teams would put out all bigs if they had the skill to all play the positions. Simmons at PG for example. Most guys who are 6'9 do not have the handle to play point. Scary what Philly would look like if they had a legit sized SG. PG - Simmons, SG - ???? SF - Covington, PF - Saric, C - Embiid

Exactly. Skill tends to go down as size goes up. Just a much larger pool of players to pick from at 6'5" than 7'0". Bigger and skilled beats smaller and skilled almost every time. However, the smaller players usually have more skill.

Right, not to mention smaller players are usually quicker at the NBA level then bigger players, it's how they can somewhat nullify the size difference, hence the reason small PGs disappear quickly in their early 30s. The more you rely on quickness, the shorter your career will be.

[Norseman79]

So with Richardson being smaller and quicker a mismatch occurs both ways. If not why doesn't every team put an all bigs lineup on the court? They are bigger and stronger and win each time or not? I get where you are coming from, but I believe Okogie and Richardson will do just fine playing the SF position. ESPN lists Richardson as a SF.

Because, to be perfectly honest...it is easier for length to make up for quickness. Teams would put out all bigs if they had the skill to all play the positions. Simmons at PG for example. Most guys who are 6'9 do not have the handle to play point. Scary what Philly would look like if they had a legit sized SG. PG - Simmons, SG - ???? SF - Covington, PF - Saric, C - Embiid

Exactly. Skill tends to go down as size goes up. Just a much larger pool of players to pick from at 6'5" than 7'0". Bigger and skilled beats smaller and skilled almost every time. However, the smaller players usually have more skill.

Agree, easier to find those guys. Now, looking that the Western Conference and the teams to beat...which lineups do not have superior size along with skill? The only team I may say is Houston, but even last year they had Ariza at the 3, who is 6'8/9 as well.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

With the latest news, reporting that Butler won't hold out to force a trade, it is looking like he will be reporting to practice anyday. Nothing is imminent in terms of a trade as of today.

[Norseman79]

Josh Richardson is probably a great player who can play 3 positions at times...what I am trying to say isn't that he cannot do it, I am saying in the Western conference, if the Wolves hope to do anything, which opposing SF's can he nullify on playoff teams that dwarf him in size?

[Pillendreher]

With the latest news, reporting that Butler won't hold out to force a trade, it is looking like he will be reporting to practice anyday. Nothing is imminent in terms of a trade as of today.

Who is leaking all this stuff? The Miami thing is obviously coming from the Heat. "Look at us; we're already overpaying, so now we have to set a deadline". And the Butler stuff? Is that Minnesota? Basically saying "Fine, I'll report..." doesn't exactly help his trade value and gives the T'Wolves leverage at the same time.

[minimus]

I like Richardson a lot, especially his comparison with Danny Green (very good defender and shotblocker for a wing). But more than anything else I like Richardson contract. He is a perfect fit both skillswise and contractwise. I wonder how much we can improve simply by having good coaching and good chemistry. Financialy I can easily see KAT/Wiggins/Richardson/Tyus/Okogie/KBD group developing together into something special.

[shrink]

With the latest news, reporting that Butler won't hold out to force a trade, it is looking like he will be reporting to practice anyday. Nothing is imminent in terms of a trade as of today.

Who is leaking all this stuff? The Miami thing is obviously coming from the Heat. "Look at us; we're already overpaying, so now we have to set a deadline". And the Butler stuff? Is that Minnesota? Basically saying "Fine, I'll report..." doesn't exactly help his trade value and gives the T'Wolves leverage at the same time.

According to local reporter Darren Wolfson, 98% of the stories are from Butler’s people.

MIN’s other reporter, John Krawsinski, has said that Thibs and Layden have decided to say nothing to the press, and he feels it hurts them because that allows others to shape their message with one-sided info.

[minimus]

Josh Richardson is probably a great player who can play 3 positions at times...what I am trying to say isn't that he cannot do it, I am saying in the Western conference, if the Wolves hope to do anything, which opposing SF's can he nullify on playoff teams that dwarf him in size?

I agree with you. We need size, but we need size on perimeter. Thibs idea is to cementing the paint with Gorgui, KAT, Aldrich, Patton etc. Whiteside fits this idea. But I'd rather have someone like PJ Tucker, playing ~25 minutes as versatile defender at PF, depending on matchup. This roster is very disbalanced, Gibson is an excellent player, still a good defender, but no 3pt shooting. Teague is too small as defender, and can't apply pressure on defense as he used to do in ATL. Wiggins can't defend, pass, rebound and take good shots. KAT is soft defender, supreme offensive player.

[Pillendreher]

With the latest news, reporting that Butler won't hold out to force a trade, it is looking like he will be reporting to practice anyday. Nothing is imminent in terms of a trade as of today.

Who is leaking all this stuff? The Miami thing is obviously coming from the Heat. "Look at us; we're already overpaying, so now we have to set a deadline". And the Butler stuff? Is that Minnesota? Basically saying "Fine, I'll report..." doesn't exactly help his trade value and gives the T'Wolves leverage at the same time.

According to local reporter Darren Wolfson, 98% of the stories are from Butler’s people.

MIN’s other reporter, John Krawsinski, has said that Thibs and Layden have decided to say nothing to the press, and he feels it hurts them because that allows others to shape their message with one-sided info.

Yeah Butler behind all of this makes sense as well. All the "reports" read like one side is pushing to get a deal done. And since Minnesota doesn't seem to be in a rush, it has to be the other side. Butler is most likely part of "the other side" because he's the one who wants to leave.

But why would he "leak" that he would come back? Did the T'Wolves call his bluff?

[AirP.]

Who is leaking all this stuff? The Miami thing is obviously coming from the Heat. "Look at us; we're already overpaying, so now we have to set a deadline". And the Butler stuff? Is that Minnesota? Basically saying "Fine, I'll report..." doesn't exactly help his trade value and gives the T'Wolves leverage at the same time.

According to local reporter Darren Wolfson, 98% of the stories are from Butler’s people.

MIN’s other reporter, John Krawsinski, has said that Thibs and Layden have decided to say nothing to the press, and he feels it hurts them because that allows others to shape their message with one-sided info.

Yeah Butler behind all of this makes sense as well. All the "reports" read like one side is pushing to get a deal done. And since Minnesota doesn't seem to be in a rush, it has to be the other side. Butler is most likely part of "the other side" because he's the one who wants to leave.

But why would he "leak" that he would come back? Did the T'Wolves call his bluff?

He's been at the practice facilities. I think they are calling his bluff but it seems it's more than just about money for Butler asking for a trade.

Read on Twitter

[shrink]

Who is leaking all this stuff? The Miami thing is obviously coming from the Heat. "Look at us; we're already overpaying, so now we have to set a deadline". And the Butler stuff? Is that Minnesota? Basically saying "Fine, I'll report..." doesn't exactly help his trade value and gives the T'Wolves leverage at the same time.

According to local reporter Darren Wolfson, 98% of the stories are from Butler’s people.

MIN’s other reporter, John Krawsinski, has said that Thibs and Layden have decided to say nothing to the press, and he feels it hurts them because that allows others to shape their message with one-sided info.

Yeah Butler behind all of this makes sense as well. All the "reports" read like one side is pushing to get a deal done. And since Minnesota doesn't seem to be in a rush, it has to be the other side. Butler is most likely part of "the other side" because he's the one who wants to leave.

But why would he "leak" that he would come back? Did the T'Wolves call his bluff?

Perhaps he needs to rehab his image a little to get traded, to a team that thinks he’s being unprofessional.

This is from Sam Amico, so take it with a grain of salt, but here is an interview with an opposing GM ripping Butler to shreds for being unprofessional:

http://amicohoops.net/nba-story-jimmy-butler-minnesota-timberwolves-nba-rumors/

”I don’t trade him,” an opposing general manager told Amico Hoops. “I tell him to stop whining, honor his contract and report to work. I tell him to be a man. He’s what? Almost 30 years old? Time to grow up.”

Immaturity, selfishness, basically all the things that are wrong with basketball,” the opposing GM said. “It’s not even an NBA problem; it’s a basketball problem. The current system is teaching great players that they are entitled at a very young age. Is it any surprise they’re acting entitled as adults?

“Jimmy is just the product of a flawed basketball system that’s poisoning the NBA.”

[KGdaBom]

According to local reporter Darren Wolfson, 98% of the stories are from Butler’s people.

MIN’s other reporter, John Krawsinski, has said that Thibs and Layden have decided to say nothing to the press, and he feels it hurts them because that allows others to shape their message with one-sided info.

Yeah Butler behind all of this makes sense as well. All the "reports" read like one side is pushing to get a deal done. And since Minnesota doesn't seem to be in a rush, it has to be the other side. Butler is most likely part of "the other side" because he's the one who wants to leave.

But why would he "leak" that he would come back? Did the T'Wolves call his bluff?

He's been at the practice facilities. I think they are calling his bluff but it seems it's more than just about money for Butler asking for a trade.

Read on Twitter

The level of stupidity on Jimmy's part to not report would have been staggering. He simply isn't that stupid.

[AirP.]

Perhaps he needs to rehab his image a little to get traded, to a team that thinks he’s being unprofessional.

This is from Sam Amico, so take it with a grain of salt, but here is an interview with an opposing GM ripping Butler to shreds for being unprofessional:

http://amicohoops.net/nba-story-jimmy-butler-minnesota-timberwolves-nba-rumors/

He may be willing to come back if it was more than about money. If he thought the coach he was aligned with was going to be gone next season(it's being said that Towns asked for Thibs to be removed) why would he want to stay in Minnesota(he'd rather sign for his max with someone else, if he's traded at the deadline, the team getting him probably is just renting him for the playoff run and with that, no bird rights signing). Seeing Thibs possibly change to appease Towns, being assured by Thibs he'll do what it takes to stay and of course, Thibs not being forced to move Butler at this time, maybe he's open to staying?

I'm just trying to connect the dots with the more data I can get(like Thibs changing during games), I don't think all these things are done randomly, I just don't think we have all the info, the Towns asking for Thibs to be removed makes a lot of sense and could indirectly be push Butler to leave. Hopefully more info comes out to better understand what's going on because if Butler comes back he'll just say he's here to play basketball and not really address all the issues, same with Thibs.

If Butler comes back and seems willing to play out the season or even sign long term, then the price for Butler goes up greatly if they still want to move him. Instead of a fire sale it would be a... now make us want to trade him.

We should know more today, the team should be back in town today, possibly practicing or reviewing tape.

[urinesane]

You sound really defensive, I'm just applying history in past Riley trades. I have reiterated multiple times that if Minnesota finds a better deal, Riley will budge and throw in Richardson and the trade is done, but really don't think he has yet or we probably would have heard about an announcement a while back ago. All news outlet continue to say that Miami isn't offering Richardson and you're trying to attack me like I'm saying something blasphemous. Again, let me reiterate because it doesn't seem like I'm getting through to some here, I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH JRICH BEING ADDED TO THE DEAL, but also understand why Riley hasn't felt the need to offer him yet.

Not sure how that comes off as defensive, unless you are projecting something. It's just ya know...reality.