Trade Talk (Part 17): Early Offseason Planning

[winforlose]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

[Klomp]

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

Wrong brother.

[cmoss84]

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

Charlotte is lamelo. I'm stoned too. All good.

[winforlose]

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

Charlotte is lamelo. I'm stoned too. All good.

I thought it was a typo on your part. You think the difference between Randle and LaMelo is 2 firsts our way? Lamelo was drafted the same year as Ant, and is seen as their best player. Dude this isn’t laugh and hang up territory. This is their fans egging your car and house territory.

[winforlose]

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

Wrong brother.

Like I told him, seeing that proposal I assumed he had a typo. He also didn’t correct me when I made the 10 million post. There is no way 23 year old LeMelo and 2 firsts comes to us for DDV and Randle. I mean that would be Nico territory, and even he isn’t that drunk.

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[Klomp]

With Haliburton out, and Nembhard extension kicking in, what is probability of TJ McConnell to be traded, and would be the price? Would be MIN interested? Keep in mind that he is already 33yo

I literally woke up thinking about this.

I don't know if I want to give up so much 3-point shooting, but I believe Donte DiVincenzo would represent pretty good value for Indiana and I think McConnell would give Minnesota skill sets at the PG position that the team needs.

This would also open up even more minutes for TJ Shannon, who I believe is ready for that kind of role.

DDV for McConnell

Gobert/Reid/Beringer + Zikarsky
Randle/McDaniels/TJ
McDaniels/TJ/Clark
Edwards/Clark/???
Conley/McConnell/Dilly

I think that this move might bring multiple side effects:

First and the most obvious: it will push Rob development down in priority list for one more year. Which is a very sensitive theme, because Rob might not be ready for big minutes, but still needs consistent development minutes. Second, it will shift more focus from DDV as main bench scorer/shooter to Reid/TJ/McDaniels, with McDaniels playing more PF minutes in smallball unit, because I believe that with McConnell they should play fast and Reid can compensate loss of DDV three point shooing. That said, I feel like bringing here an experienced veteran such as McConnell might hurt short term Dilly development, but also might be a big investment in Reid/TJ/McDaniels development.

I think what really got me thinking about this was thinking about our loss to the Thunder. One of the things I heard someone say recently was that Ant and Julius were the only guys who could regularly break the paint in that series. I actually think that's a major key that unlock's Finch's offense, so we need more guys who can do that. I also think McConnell's intensity and work ethic would be great to rub off on the younger guys. I think his contract is a number where he would provide incredible value, but his salary on the books will not cripple us as he ages.

I think Donte provides a "talent" bump for Indiana, and a shift in roster balance to give them a SG. Once Haliburton comes back in a year, that could be a really fun duo.

[cmoss84]

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23597/lonzo-ball

Charlotte is lamelo. I'm stoned too. All good.

I thought it was a typo on your part. You think the difference between Randle and LaMelo is 2 firsts our way? Lamelo was drafted the same year as Ant, and is seen as their best player. Dude this isn’t laugh and hang up territory. This is their fans egging your car and house territory.

Again, some people say they wouldn't touch lamelo. Others say he is God. I'm valuing the risk/worth at half way.The 2 FRPs come from DDV.

[winforlose]

Charlotte is lamelo. I'm stoned too. All good.

I thought it was a typo on your part. You think the difference between Randle and LaMelo is 2 firsts our way? Lamelo was drafted the same year as Ant, and is seen as their best player. Dude this isn’t laugh and hang up territory. This is their fans egging your car and house territory.

Again, some people say they wouldn't touch lamelo. Others say he is God. I'm valuing the risk/worth at half way.The 2 FRPs come from DDV.

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

[cmoss84]

I thought it was a typo on your part. You think the difference between Randle and LaMelo is 2 firsts our way? Lamelo was drafted the same year as Ant, and is seen as their best player. Dude this isn’t laugh and hang up territory. This is their fans egging your car and house territory.

Again, some people say they wouldn't touch lamelo. Others say he is God. I'm valuing the risk/worth at half way.The 2 FRPs come from DDV.

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

[winforlose]

Again, some people say they wouldn't touch lamelo. Others say he is God. I'm valuing the risk/worth at half way.The 2 FRPs come from DDV.

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

You are correct that both ball brother struggle to stay on the court. But Melo is 23 and has shown much higher upside. Guys like that don’t tend to move easy. Also haste is very high and you said a low usage option. That is another part of what threw me.

[TimberKat]

Again, some people say they wouldn't touch lamelo. Others say he is God. I'm valuing the risk/worth at half way.The 2 FRPs come from DDV.

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

We are finally playing the same ball . Maybe it's really DDV+Randle for Ball and forget about the picks coming here but let it go to Charlotte. I would take a risk on LaMelo at this time, but maybe mid season. Question is more why CHA would do this trade. Maybe LaMelo requested a trade or CHA is tired of waiting for him to get healthy and value the two first from DET. However, what is CHA going to do with Randle. They already have a guy playing the same position. Trade him for more picks, bring him home, have him mentor Brandon Miller? I think if we throw Joan in as part of the deal, we may get it done.

[KGdaBom]

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

We are finally playing the same ball . Maybe it's really DDV+Randle for Ball and forget about the picks coming here but let it go to Charlotte. I would take a risk on LaMelo at this time, but maybe mid season. Question is more why CHA would do this trade. Maybe LaMelo requested a trade or CHA is tired of waiting for him to get healthy and value the two first from DET. However, what is CHA going to do with Randle. They already have a guy playing the same position. Trade him for more picks, bring him home, have him mentor Brandon Miller? I think if we throw Joan in as part of the deal, we may get it done.

No way in HELL am I giving Randle, DDV and Joan for a guy likely to not be available in the playoffs. Not a snowballs chance in Hell.

[winforlose]

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

We are finally playing the same ball . Maybe it's really DDV+Randle for Ball and forget about the picks coming here but let it go to Charlotte. I would take a risk on LaMelo at this time, but maybe mid season. Question is more why CHA would do this trade. Maybe LaMelo requested a trade or CHA is tired of waiting for him to get healthy and value the two first from DET. However, what is CHA going to do with Randle. They already have a guy playing the same position. Trade him for more picks, bring him home, have him mentor Brandon Miller? I think if we throw Joan in as part of the deal, we may get it done.

No way in HELL am I giving Randle, DDV and Joan for a guy likely to not be available in the playoffs. Not a snowballs chance in Hell.

1. I am not sure he would be as chronically injured if his team was not tanking. He tends to miss some games with nagging injuries and minor procedures, (which seem a lot like shut down early for tanking,) which he probably avoids if his team is competitive.

2. The Pels have a similar issue with Zion, and they are not moving on from him without very real compensation. Our trying to acquire Ball is not likely to be as simple as the value of DDV (I don’t see him getting two firsts, his contract is one year further in, and DJM as an example for two firsts,) the resale of Randle (to a third team,) and a 18 year old JB who had two good summer league games. If Ball stays healthy and plays well, then Charlottes FO is doomed. If JB doesn’t develop then the Charlotte FO is doomed. Too many ways for it to get people fired.

3. Ball is very high usage. He is ball dominant (no pun intended,) and playing with Ant would alter his game. I would probably take that gamble on upside alone (Melo is only 23,) but it might not be as smooth as we hope.

[KGdaBom]

We are finally playing the same ball . Maybe it's really DDV+Randle for Ball and forget about the picks coming here but let it go to Charlotte. I would take a risk on LaMelo at this time, but maybe mid season. Question is more why CHA would do this trade. Maybe LaMelo requested a trade or CHA is tired of waiting for him to get healthy and value the two first from DET. However, what is CHA going to do with Randle. They already have a guy playing the same position. Trade him for more picks, bring him home, have him mentor Brandon Miller? I think if we throw Joan in as part of the deal, we may get it done.

No way in HELL am I giving Randle, DDV and Joan for a guy likely to not be available in the playoffs. Not a snowballs chance in Hell.

1. I am not sure he would be as chronically injured if his team was not tanking. He tends to miss some games with nagging injuries and minor procedures, (which seem a lot like shut down early for tanking,) which he probably avoids if his team is competitive.

2. The Pels have a similar issue with Zion, and they are not moving on from him without very real compensation. Our trying to acquire Ball is not likely to be as simple as the value of DDV (I don’t see him getting two firsts, his contract is one year further in, and DJM as an example for two firsts,) the resale of Randle (to a third team,) and a 18 year old JB who had two good summer league games. If Ball stays healthy and plays well, then Charlottes FO is doomed. If JB doesn’t develop then the Charlotte FO is doomed. Too many ways for it to get people fired.

3. Ball is very high usage. He is ball dominant (no pun intended,) and playing with Ant would alter his game. I would probably take that gamble on upside alone (Melo is only 23,) but it might not be as smooth as we hope.

I consider La Berricade to be a top 5 draft pick after knowing what I know now. Melo just way too risky and as you stated way too ball dominant. I don't see him and Ant as a good fit. If I KNEW for a Fact he would play 70 games in the regular season and be available for the Playoffs maybe I make that deal. I consider him more likely playing 50 regular season and not available for a good portion of the playoffs. No way in HELL.

[BlacJacMac]

You are suggesting a team mid rebuild is going to dump their 23 year old, 3rd overall pick, PGOF, for a 31 year old Randle and a second. They would also let DDV go to a third party and not demand the picks? I am sorry, but this trade makes a lot more sense if you had a typo.

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

You are correct that both ball brother struggle to stay on the court. But Melo is 23 and has shown much higher upside. Guys like that don’t tend to move easy. Also haste is very high and you said a low usage option. That is another part of what threw me.

If both brothers were guaranteed to be healthy, I take Lonzo over LaMelo every time.

One is a serious basketball player that helps you win games, the other wants to put on a show.

[KGdaBom]

Sure give them the picks. Others won't agree with you. I just read post after post about how Ball can't stay on the court. A lot of posters change their minds nonstop apparently.

You are correct that both ball brother struggle to stay on the court. But Melo is 23 and has shown much higher upside. Guys like that don’t tend to move easy. Also haste is very high and you said a low usage option. That is another part of what threw me.

If both brothers were guaranteed to be healthy, I take Lonzo over LaMelo every time.

One is a serious basketball player that helps you win games, the other wants to put on a show.

Interesting. I don't I'd go there, but I get it.

[TimberKat]

I consider La Berricade to be a top 5 draft pick after knowing what I know now. Melo just way too risky and as you stated way too ball dominant. I don't see him and Ant as a good fit. If I KNEW for a Fact he would play 70 games in the regular season and be available for the Playoffs maybe I make that deal. I consider him more likely playing 50 regular season and not available for a good portion of the playoffs. No way in HELL.

Top 5 as in a draft class or Twolves history? The former is likely no and the latter is a low bar to clear. We all love to trade Mayo for Love. I am just hoping he turn out like Longley instead of Spencer.

[KGdaBom]

I consider La Berricade to be a top 5 draft pick after knowing what I know now. Melo just way too risky and as you stated way too ball dominant. I don't see him and Ant as a good fit. If I KNEW for a Fact he would play 70 games in the regular season and be available for the Playoffs maybe I make that deal. I consider him more likely playing 50 regular season and not available for a good portion of the playoffs. No way in HELL.

Top 5 as in a draft class or Twolves history? The former is likely no and the latter is a low bar to clear. We all love to trade Mayo for Love. I am just hoping he turn out like Longley instead of Spencer.

I consider La Berricade to be one of the 5 best picks in this years draft. I was in great distress when the Wolves drafted Mayo over Love, until I found out the master plan. One of the best trades in Wolves history.

[BlacJacMac]

I consider La Berricade to be a top 5 draft pick after knowing what I know now. Melo just way too risky and as you stated way too ball dominant. I don't see him and Ant as a good fit. If I KNEW for a Fact he would play 70 games in the regular season and be available for the Playoffs maybe I make that deal. I consider him more likely playing 50 regular season and not available for a good portion of the playoffs. No way in HELL.

Top 5 as in a draft class or Twolves history? The former is likely no and the latter is a low bar to clear. We all love to trade Mayo for Love. I am just hoping he turn out like Longley instead of Spencer.

You're so down on Beringer that you hope he turns out like Longley?

[shrink]

Sometimes I wonder where LaMelo would be today, if CHA had put him in a winning environment, like Connelly did for Ant?