Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[winforlose]

It is pretty simple right now: don't get out rebounded as team, don't make silly turnovers, and run in transition. And with Rudy declining rebounding issues will only be worse.

Go back and watch how teams box out Rudy. Then watch how many plays Randle refuses to move to the ball, box out, or help in any way. He even refuses to switch on Curry when he is open for 3. If Randle won’t put forth the effort and Rudy is fighting 2 or 3 players for the ball, what do you expect will happen? We need another C and Naz playing the majority of minutes at PF. He might be bad at rebounding, but at least he tries.

[Klomp]

Go back and watch how teams box out Rudy.

This is probably a bigger factor in our rebounding issues than people realize. Gobert gets a ton of defensive attention when the ball goes up, and to this point Julius hasn't taken advantage like Karl would. And conversely, Julius doesn't take defensive attention away from Gobert like Karl would.

Team rebounding is probably more important than ever before because of this. I think that's why we saw the lineup switch at guard. We've seen Jaden try to crash the glass more too. But I think that help has to come from the guy next to Rudy if we are running at optimal efficiency.

[cmoss84]

Minnesota cannot aggregate

Do we need to just rename the thread to this, so that the point gets across more clearly?

The main reason why I don't respond in this thread

I make a ton of trade scenarios on here doing so. You just have to be under 2nd apron.

[minimus]

It is pretty simple right now: don't get out rebounded as team, don't make silly turnovers, and run in transition. And with Rudy declining rebounding issues will only be worse.

Go back and watch how teams box out Rudy. Then watch how many plays Randle refuses to move to the ball, box out, or help in any way.

That's why I wrote don't get outrebounded as TEAM. We can for sure blame Randle, but it is combination of effort, coaching and skills. For instance, how much bad positioning is a factor in defensive rebounding? How much wings and guard should be involved? And I absolutely agree that we need another big body in the paint.

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[winforlose]

It is pretty simple right now: don't get out rebounded as team, don't make silly turnovers, and run in transition. And with Rudy declining rebounding issues will only be worse.

Go back and watch how teams box out Rudy. Then watch how many plays Randle refuses to move to the ball, box out, or help in any way.

That's why I wrote don't get outrebounded as TEAM. We can for sure blame Randle, but it is combination of effort, coaching and skills. For instance, how much bad positioning is a factor in defensive rebounding? How much wings and guard should be involved? And I absolutely agree that we need another big body in the paint.

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Read on Twitter

I hear you. I think it’s interesting that DDV is pulling down quite a few boards for a guard, Jaden is averaging close to 5 rebounds per game as the small forward, and Ant often has 5 or more (averages are a little distorted since Donte became a starter.) Anyway my point is that 1-3 the starters are rebounding their position well enough. But boxing out is not sufficient.

Another thing those stats don’t reflect is how often Rudy is forced into drop coverage 2 on 1. Jim Pete was talking a lot about how Rudy was getting forced to step up and contain the drive. When that happens he is out of position for the short rebound often from the roller. Likewise with our switching concept and low man cover scheme smalls are often the ones closest to the basket. That normally is fine if you rebound 1-3 well, but if you don’t box out, that is another story.

TLDR: Rudy’s decline is less about Rudy than you might expect. I don’t think it is age or function related. I think it is more a team issue and a defensive issue.

[minimus]

TLDR: Rudy’s decline is less about Rudy than you might expect. I don’t think it is age or function related. I think it is more a team issue and a defensive issue.

I think it is combination of both. Rudy is clearly declining, Randle closeout technique leaves four MIN players fighting against five opponents for rebounds, McDaniels is inconsistent rebounder who lacks core strength, Edwards lacks awareness to be a consistent force on the glass. Plus bad coaching and lack of leadership. Plus very unbalanced roster, with no depth at C/PF and PG.

[frankenwolf]

TLDR: Rudy’s decline is less about Rudy than you might expect. I don’t think it is age or function related. I think it is more a team issue and a defensive issue.

I think it is combination of both. Rudy is clearly declining, Randle closeout technique leaves four MIN players fighting against five opponents for rebounds, McDaniels is inconsistent rebounder who lacks core strength, Edwards lacks awareness to be a consistent force on the glass. Plus bad coaching and lack of leadership. Plus very unbalanced roster, with no depth at C/PF and PG.

IDK, if you are working to help your team and another player just isn't that vested, it definitely effects your attitude. "Why should I work my arse off when he does nothing that doesn't promote himself?" I may be projecting a bit here, but I think with a different PF in the lineup, the rebounding and effort might change for the better.

That being said, we still need a decent backup 5.

[Klomp]

It is pretty simple right now: don't get out rebounded as team, don't make silly turnovers, and run in transition. And with Rudy declining rebounding issues will only be worse.

Go back and watch how teams box out Rudy. Then watch how many plays Randle refuses to move to the ball, box out, or help in any way.

That's why I wrote don't get outrebounded as TEAM. We can for sure blame Randle, but it is combination of effort, coaching and skills. For instance, how much bad positioning is a factor in defensive rebounding? How much wings and guard should be involved? And I absolutely agree that we need another big body in the paint.

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Our offensive rebounding really hasn't changed from last year to this year. Specifically going from Towns to Randle is an improvement in this area.

The difference is the defensive glass. I wonder if the desire to get out and push tempo is hurting us on the glass, because guys aren't waiting until we secure the rebound to leak out in transition.

[shrink]

TLDR: Rudy’s decline is less about Rudy than you might expect. I don’t think it is age or function related. I think it is more a team issue and a defensive issue.

I think it is combination of both. Rudy is clearly declining, Randle closeout technique leaves four MIN players fighting against five opponents for rebounds, McDaniels is inconsistent rebounder who lacks core strength, Edwards lacks awareness to be a consistent force on the glass. Plus bad coaching and lack of leadership. Plus very unbalanced roster, with no depth at C/PF and PG.

And Naz isn’t a good rebounder either.

I think it took until this year to remember just how good a rebounder KAT is. He is on the all time leaderboards for active players, in both the regular season and playoffs. SloMo would go in and fight for boards too. Losing those two players leaves Gobert without much help on the boards. Sometimes he still can’t be stopped - Gobert is #6 in he NBA in rebounds. But some nights opponents are able to just throw extra bodies at Gobert, and dare the rest of the team to outrebound them, and it’s often a smart move.

[BlacJacMac]

The difference is the defensive glass. I wonder if the desire to get out and push tempo is hurting us on the glass, because guys aren't waiting until we secure the rebound to leak out in transition.

If we're trying to push tempo, we're doing a lousy job at it, as we're 25th in Pace.

[winforlose]

Watch on YouTube

[Klomp]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

[Neeva]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

Beyond terrible.

[fattymcgee]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

Why would we need to throw in a first? Duren has gotten worse in his third year and he's only playing 25mpg on that team.

[winforlose]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

We sunk a first and a top 1 protected swap into Dilly. You only make this trade if you deem him a bust. Do you?

[fattymcgee]

Alright. Philly is over by $643,952 and NOP are over by $587,681...but you'll get the idea. This is the best madness I could come up with.

Det OUT: Isaiah Stewart, Ron Holland III, Jalen Duren, Bobi Klintman
Det IN: Brandon Ingram, NAW, Reggie Jackson, '25 FRP (Mil)
Cade-Ivey-Jackson-THJ-NAW-Thompson-Ingram-Beasley-Fontecchio-TRADE PF/C-FA BIG-FA-BIG
Detroit loads up for a playoff run. Another trade to follow, as well as a FA or two. Team taking on most risk in this trade. When can they extend Ingram/NAW?

Philly OUT: Tyrese Maxey, Caleb Martin, KMJr, Jared McCain, KOJr, Reggie Jackson
Philly IN: Zion, Jaden, RD, '25 SRP (Utah)
Lowry-Gordon-RD-Jaden-George-Zion-Embiid-Drummond
They are also taking on a good amount of risk, and might need to acquire another guard...but a starting five of
Gordon-George-Jaden-Zion-Embiid is interesting. Can they stay healthy? Does Lowry have anything left in the tank?

NOP OUT: Zion, Brandon Ingram, JRE, Alvarado, '25 FRP (Mil)
NOP IN: Julius Randle, Isaiah Stewart, Ron Holland II, Caleb Martin, KMJr, Jared McCain, Bobi Klintman
Pretty damn good all-around value coming in. Get rid of their headache in the meantime. They might have to give up a couple more draft picks...do they trade CJ soon also?
Murray-CJ-BBJr-Hawkins-McCain-Murphy III-Holland III-Martin-Jones-KMJr-Randle-Missi

MN OUT: Julius Randle, Jaden, RD, NAW, '25 SRP (Utah)
MN IN: Tyrese Maxey, KOJr., Jalen Duran, JRE, Jose Alvarado
Giving Maxey the keys to the caddy. Naz splits his minutes at SF/PF. Good depth everywhere after we sign a FA big. We are now a 1st apron team.
PG: Maxey-Mike-Alvarado
SG: Ant-DD-TSJ
SF: KOJr-Naz-Ant-Minott
PF: Naz-Duren-JRE-Miller
C: Rudy-Duren-Garza-FA

I don't think we can do what you are trying to do. We are over the 2nd apron so we cannot aggregate. It sounds like this trade would get us under the second apron, but we cannot get under the 2nd apron unless we make the trade. The problem is we are over the 2nd apron so we cannot make the trade (aggregate) to get under the second apron.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we'd have to get under the 2nd apron first without aggregating. And then once we are under we could do a trade that aggregates.

[m2002brian]

Alright. Philly is over by $643,952 and NOP are over by $587,681...but you'll get the idea. This is the best madness I could come up with.

Det OUT: Isaiah Stewart, Ron Holland III, Jalen Duren, Bobi Klintman
Det IN: Brandon Ingram, NAW, Reggie Jackson, '25 FRP (Mil)
Cade-Ivey-Jackson-THJ-NAW-Thompson-Ingram-Beasley-Fontecchio-TRADE PF/C-FA BIG-FA-BIG
Detroit loads up for a playoff run. Another trade to follow, as well as a FA or two. Team taking on most risk in this trade. When can they extend Ingram/NAW?

Philly OUT: Tyrese Maxey, Caleb Martin, KMJr, Jared McCain, KOJr, Reggie Jackson
Philly IN: Zion, Jaden, RD, '25 SRP (Utah)
Lowry-Gordon-RD-Jaden-George-Zion-Embiid-Drummond
They are also taking on a good amount of risk, and might need to acquire another guard...but a starting five of
Gordon-George-Jaden-Zion-Embiid is interesting. Can they stay healthy? Does Lowry have anything left in the tank?

NOP OUT: Zion, Brandon Ingram, JRE, Alvarado, '25 FRP (Mil)
NOP IN: Julius Randle, Isaiah Stewart, Ron Holland II, Caleb Martin, KMJr, Jared McCain, Bobi Klintman
Pretty damn good all-around value coming in. Get rid of their headache in the meantime. They might have to give up a couple more draft picks...do they trade CJ soon also?
Murray-CJ-BBJr-Hawkins-McCain-Murphy III-Holland III-Martin-Jones-KMJr-Randle-Missi

MN OUT: Julius Randle, Jaden, RD, NAW, '25 SRP (Utah)
MN IN: Tyrese Maxey, KOJr., Jalen Duran, JRE, Jose Alvarado
Giving Maxey the keys to the caddy. Naz splits his minutes at SF/PF. Good depth everywhere after we sign a FA big. We are now a 1st apron team.
PG: Maxey-Mike-Alvarado
SG: Ant-DD-TSJ
SF: KOJr-Naz-Ant-Minott
PF: Naz-Duren-JRE-Miller
C: Rudy-Duren-Garza-FA

I don't think we can do what you are trying to do. We are over the 2nd apron so we cannot aggregate. It sounds like this trade would get us under the second apron, but we cannot get under the 2nd apron unless we make the trade. The problem is we are over the 2nd apron so we cannot make the trade (aggregate) to get under the second apron.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we'd have to get under the 2nd apron first without aggregating. And then once we are under we could do a trade that aggregates.

Not sure how accurate it is, but fanspo allows aggregation if the resulting trade brings you below the 2nd apron.

[shrink]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

Duren has tremendous physical ability and potential, but many of the DET posters have given up on the guy already because of his deficiencies in so many areas. If they are right, either asset might get him - it wouldn’t take both.

[shrink]

I don't think we can do what you are trying to do. We are over the 2nd apron so we cannot aggregate. It sounds like this trade would get us under the second apron, but we cannot get under the 2nd apron unless we make the trade. The problem is we are over the 2nd apron so we cannot make the trade (aggregate) to get under the second apron.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we'd have to get under the 2nd apron first without aggregating. And then once we are under we could do a trade that aggregates.

I understand why you feel this way because it feels weird, but the apron rules in place for a trade are the ones based on your payroll after the trade is done, and your payroll before the trade doesn’t matter.

These are legal trades.

[Klomp]

Just spitballing...

Rob Dillingham and 2025 DET 1st to Detroit for Jalen Duren.

Duren has tremendous physical ability and potential, but many of the DET posters have given up on the guy already because of his deficiencies in so many areas. If they are right, either asset might get him - it wouldn’t take both.

I'll be honest, I wasn't really sure his value. But there are people here who have basically already deemed Dillingham a bust too...